Tesla Is Plugging a Secret Mega-Battery Into the Texas Grid

[Meredith Poor + 895]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-plugging-a-secret-mega-battery-into-the-texas-grid?sref=RzXyyOXY

Pure defense. If you have factories and spaceports in Texas, it might be a good idea to buffer your power.

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

^

YES!

[turbguy + 1,543]

I believe (while this is still in it's infancy)  this will make a huge difference to integration of renewable resources into the grids.

Is it economical?  Could be.  Buy low, sell high.   Same as commercial pumped storage, but with no moving parts (maybe some cooling fans), and FAR fewer heads/MW.  No  flooding danger, and response within milliseconds...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-22/megabattery-boom-will-rescue-overloaded-power-grids?srnd=hyperdrive

Edited March 8, 2021 by turbguy

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

8 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I believe (while this is still in it's infancy)  this will make a huge difference to integration of renewable resources into the grids.

Is it economical?  Could be.  Buy low, sell high.   Same as commercial pumped storage, but with no moving parts (maybe some cooling fans), and FAR fewer heads/MW.  No  flooding danger, and response within milliseconds...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-22/megabattery-boom-will-rescue-overloaded-power-grids?srnd=hyperdrive

Ahh there is a foundation of culture, Keep Simple Stupid and I especially like Buy Low Sell High!

Buffering turbines variable output with batterys maybe a great solution. It's merely a matter cost, gas generation vs wind farm/battery generation. 

Speaking for myself that is the time for accountants, strictly the facts please no opinions...Once again Mr van Eck lays it out so clearly..Facts do indeed matter, opinions are rather messy.

 

[turbguy + 1,543]

7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ahh there is a foundation of culture, Keep Simple Stupid and I especially like Buy Low Sell High!

Buffering turbines variable output with batterys maybe a great solution. It's merely a matter cost, gas generation vs wind farm/battery generation. 

Speaking for myself that is the time for accountants, strictly the facts please no opinions...Once again Mr van Eck lays it out so clearly..Facts do indeed matter, opinions are rather messy.

 

From my viewpoint, wind (and solar) have two HUGE advantages that fossil plants may not have:

1.  Zero fuel/Zero water

2.  Fewer heads/MW.

That said, the grid will still need fossil for quite some decades.

Edited March 8, 2021 by turbguy

[markslawson + 1,057]

7 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Pure defense. If you have factories and spaceports in Texas, it might be a good idea to buffer your power.

 

5 hours ago, turbguy said:

I believe (while this is still in it's infancy)  this will make a huge difference to integration of renewable resources into the grids.

 

4 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ahh there is a foundation of culture, Keep Simple Stupid and I especially like Buy Low Sell High!

 

6 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

YES!

Guys! Guys! I'm curious at this point. Did any of you actually read the story? There are a few bits missing like how big is the  battery? The story says 100 MW. In fact all the stories say that and that's all they say. I assume that means output. As a conventional peaking gas power plant might generate about 300 MW and a major coal power plant might have four generators capable of generating 2,000 MW at full stretch, that's hardly significant, but how long will it last on full discharge? An hour? if so the actual size is 100 MWhs.. that's pretty good for a battery but again I'm not impressed. Batteries have had some use in stabilising the grid in the last few years, but only because the present obsession with renewables has stuffed up the grids in the first place.  Okay, another battery - cue applause..    

[turbguy + 1,543]

9 minutes ago, markslawson said:

 

 

 

Guys! Guys! I'm curious at this point. Did any of you actually read the story? There are a few bits missing like how big is the  battery? The story says 100 MW. In fact all the stories say that and that's all they say. I assume that means output. As a conventional peaking gas power plant might generate about 300 MW and a major coal power plant might have four generators capable of generating 2,000 MW at full stretch, that's hardly significant, but how long will it last on full discharge? An hour? if so the actual size is 100 MWhs.. that's pretty good for a battery but again I'm not impressed. Batteries have had some use in stabilising the grid in the last few years, but only because the present obsession with renewables has stuffed up the grids in the first place.  Okay, another battery - cue applause..    

Moss Landing? 4 hours (1200 MWH +/-).

Hey, we ain't seen nothin' yet.  I remember when the largest fossil generator in the world was 260 MVA (nameplate). And it took many years to get there.

Edited March 8, 2021 by turbguy

[Boat + 1,323]

49 minutes ago, markslawson said:

 

 

 

Guys! Guys! I'm curious at this point. Did any of you actually read the story? There are a few bits missing like how big is the  battery? The story says 100 MW. In fact all the stories say that and that's all they say. I assume that means output. As a conventional peaking gas power plant might generate about 300 MW and a major coal power plant might have four generators capable of generating 2,000 MW at full stretch, that's hardly significant, but how long will it last on full discharge? An hour? if so the actual size is 100 MWhs.. that's pretty good for a battery but again I'm not impressed. Batteries have had some use in stabilising the grid in the last few years, but only because the present obsession with renewables has stuffed up the grids in the first place.  Okay, another battery - cue applause..    

When Musk put the 100 MW battery in Australia that grew to 150MW it was the largest in the world. The biggest battery before that was 50MW. The new one in Calif is going to be 350MW. Big ones are going up everywhere. 
To your point Mark the battery is just now become cheap enough. Like wind, solar just kinda broke even on cost 3 years ago you could say the big battery Musk brought us just broke even a year ago. Now it’s the biggest market maybe in the world if you have the tech and the supply chain covered.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Boat

[Gerry Maddoux + 3,627]

1. Elon Musk is now in Texas.

2. Elon Musk makes lithium-ion batteries.

3. Texas just had an energy meltdown. 

4. They're going to winterize the hell out of their natural gas feeds.

5. But also incorporate battery storage for variable energy sources. 

6. The battery will be big enough to do the job. 

[Boat + 1,323]

4 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

1. Elon Musk is now in Texas.

2. Elon Musk makes lithium-ion batteries.

3. Texas just had an energy meltdown. 

4. They're going to winterize the hell out of their natural gas feeds.

5. But also incorporate battery storage for variable energy sources. 

6. The battery will be big enough to do the job. 

Maybe 20 of those batteries. But how many is a good question especially with Texas population growth and renewable growth.

[Boat + 1,323]

Are you familiar with the California duck shaped  daily energy consumption cycle? So you run these batteries 3 hrs in the morning and 4-5 hrs in the evening to take care care of the peak consumption times that solar can’t handle is the idea.

I think catastrophic loss is still a problem.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Boat

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

20 minutes ago, Boat said:

Are you familiar with the California duck shaped  daily energy consumption cycle? So you run these batteries 3 hrs in the morning and 4-5 hrs in the evening to take care care of the peak consumption times that solar can’t handle is the idea.

I think catastrophic loss is still a problem.

 

Are you familiar with California rate increase's and failures since 2017...Where is Mr. Musk when you need him?..Off to greener pastures, Texas seems prime real estate.

https://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2018/2/12/electricity-prices-rose-three-times-more-in-california-than-in-rest-of-us-in-2017

Looks like it is just in time, 

Tesla Facing $275 Billion Market Cap Loss As Bond Yields Surge; Shares at 3-Month Low

Tesla shares have fallen more than 30% from the intra-day high it reached on January 25, thanks in part to rising bond yields, a big bet on bitcoin and increasing competition in the clean-energy car market.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/tesla-facing-250-billion-market-cap-loss-on-rates-bitcoin

Edited March 9, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[Meredith Poor + 895]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

 

 

 

Guys! Guys! I'm curious at this point. Did any of you actually read the story? There are a few bits missing like how big is the  battery? The story says 100 MW. In fact all the stories say that and that's all they say. I assume that means output. As a conventional peaking gas power plant might generate about 300 MW and a major coal power plant might have four generators capable of generating 2,000 MW at full stretch, that's hardly significant, but how long will it last on full discharge? An hour? if so the actual size is 100 MWhs.. that's pretty good for a battery but again I'm not impressed. Batteries have had some use in stabilising the grid in the last few years, but only because the present obsession with renewables has stuffed up the grids in the first place.  Okay, another battery - cue applause..    

Admittedly, this battery is microscopic in comparison to the Texas power market. The Australian one paid for itself in a year. Perhaps the point of this venture is to get a few years of experience to see what the numbers are like in Texas. If it pays it's way, most likely the next one will be gigawatt scale.

[Symmetry + 109]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_integration

[RichieRich216 + 454]

Not a very well kept secret! Fossil fuels are not going anywhere anytime soon! Let them jump into EV’s, Just like the Credit Default Swaps on Housing, The biggest bank’s investments most likely created a similar document for the huge investments into this. 

[Wombat + 1,028]

Can anyone here tell me the lowest minimum prices allowed in Texas and California? In Australia, the minimum wholesale price of electricity is minus $1000/MWH and the max is $14,000. I believe the max in Texas is $11,000 but have not heard anything about minimum prices?

[turbguy + 1,543]

4 hours ago, Boat said:

Are you familiar with the California duck shaped  daily energy consumption cycle? So you run these batteries 3 hrs in the morning and 4-5 hrs in the evening to take care care of the peak consumption times that solar can’t handle is the idea.

I think catastrophic loss is still a problem.

 

Yup. The grid is man made.  I guarantee you it cannot take everything mother nature can dose out.

[turbguy + 1,543]

Also...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/utilities-are-installing-big-batteries-at-a-record-pace/

[turbguy + 1,543]

The ongoing energy transition is kinda like a jigsaw puzzle: unless and until all the necessary pieces come together, the entire project, and the individual pieces themselves, are of substantially less value.

When the "value potential" of a technology relies on the adoption of another, complementary technology, by separate players with their own incentives, the resulting uncertainty probably suppresses investment.  Particularly in the absence of a powerful coordinating force.

Markets are effective instruments for finding the lowest-cost sources of electricity generation today, but even these prices show uncertainties about whether there will be sufficient investments in transmission and storage.

It seems obvious to me, that if an entity is going to rely on a non-dispatchable energy source, some type of complimentary energy buffer is required to make it function as desired. Some what like a SPR?

Until then, keep that nat gas flowing and those neutrons slowing, guys!  That's what we got at the moment.

Edited March 9, 2021 by turbguy

[Boat + 1,323]

Solar has the capability of doing job #1. That’s to satisfy all those AC units kicking in during the heat of the day. Adding batteries expands those hours as the sun rises and falls. By doing so the capacity of the grid to handle more renewables is a by product. Wind and solar are cheaper than FF but only when there is wind and sun. 
There is limited production of the worlds best battery but Musk is building at least 3 production facilities as we speak. When the next version of battery has robust production you will see the first round of serious assault on FF’s. This will begin to happen in about 1 1/2 years. 
In the meantime previous battery versions sell about all they can produce. There is speculation if the supply chain can stay ahead of battery production. A rise in battery materials could slow this roll. The big scramble is on. 
Once battery tech reaches yet another level beyond the new Musk version, expect the battery storage market to explode. I’m guessing 4-5 years.

Cars are a different story. Even with range issues solved future batteries are still expensive and so are the cars. Even a $20,000 car which won’t exist for many years is not affordable for most. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Boat

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Admittedly, this battery is microscopic in comparison to the Texas power market. The Australian one paid for itself in a year. Perhaps the point of this venture is to get a few years of experience to see what the numbers are like in Texas. If it pays it's way, most likely the next one will be gigawatt scale.

The concern I have is that all these grid scale batteries are going to soak up the lithium supply which is best suited for transport applications where energy density is key. 

A better option for stationary battery sets is vanadium flow or Sodium ion. 

[Meredith Poor + 895]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

A better option for stationary battery sets is vanadium flow or Sodium ion. 

Sodium ions are in production, so this is already viable. We are assuming that the Tesla batteries are lithium based. They might not be.

[specinho + 467]

15 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Are you familiar with California rate increase's and failures since 2017...Where is Mr. Musk when you need him?..Off to greener pastures, Texas seems prime real estate.

https://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2018/2/12/electricity-prices-rose-three-times-more-in-california-than-in-rest-of-us-in-2017

 

ha...... wherever he is, there seems to be serious black out...... and heaven lite each area with forest fire??

[Symmetry + 109]

9 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Sodium ions are in production, so this is already viable. We are assuming that the Tesla batteries are lithium based. They might not be.

There are several vanadium flow facilities in operation.

[markslawson + 1,057]

23 hours ago, turbguy said:

Moss Landing? 4 hours (1200 MWH +/-).

Hey, we ain't seen nothin' yet.  I remember when the largest fossil generator in the world was 260 MVA (nameplate). And it took many years to get there.

I'm well aware of Moss Landing so now there are two batteries California which can generate comparatively small amounts of power for a few hours.. the 260 MVA figure you quote - please stick to the more comparable MV - is further example of straight fantasy. The 500 MW coal fired power unit was standard before I was born and the very point is that they keep on going. I would urge you to deflate your balloon.. but perhaps I'm simply wasting my time responding..