Tesla Is Plugging a Secret Mega-Battery Into the Texas Grid

[markslawson + 1,057]

23 hours ago, Boat said:

When Musk put the 100 MW battery in Australia that grew to 150MW it was the largest in the world. The biggest battery before that was 50MW. The new one in Calif is going to be 350MW. Big ones are going up everywhere. 
To your point Mark the battery is just now become cheap enough. Like wind, solar just kinda broke even on cost 3 years ago you could say the big battery Musk brought us just broke even a year ago. Now it’s the biggest market maybe in the world if you have the tech and the supply chain covered.

Boat - look and your post post, sit down and think.. how much difference would these batteries collectively make at all to the grids they are on? The answer is almost none. As I pointed out they have some balancing and frequency management use, because the grid has been messed up by the use of renewables. As for the rest of your post you've simply made up facts, or confused them. Wind and solar haven't broken even on costs .. what I think you mean is you think they reached some sort of parity in costs with conventional power sources.. they might have on a levelised cost basis (look it up) but not on grids. The problem of using renewables on grids are as bad as they ever were. As for the SA battery if you think its broken even on routine operations you must be psychic. I have yet to see independent figures on it. That said, it made some money last year when South Australia was isolated from the rest of the country and there were too few conventional plants, thanks to all the investment in renewables, to offer stuff like frequency management services (look it up). It was built with government money and the extension was also involved a lot of government grants. I urge you to let some of the air out of your balloon and come back to earth.    

[markslawson + 1,057]

22 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

The Australian one paid for itself in a year.

Meredith - the rest of your post was reasonable but, as far as I know, that's wrong, or at least you are looking at a wild exaggeration from activists. Last year the South Australian grid was isolated for a time. SA has a lot of renewables but little firm generation so network services stuff like frequency management which batteries can do become extremely valuable. The battery made a lot of money. But otherwise I'm unaware of any separate figures for the battery itself. The wind farm and battery combined has published some figures but not the battery itself.. In any case, it was built with public funds, not private investment, and the extension required several government grants from different bodies. A profitable investment would not require public funds like that.    

[Ecocharger + 1,470]

23 hours ago, Boat said:

When Musk put the 100 MW battery in Australia that grew to 150MW it was the largest in the world. The biggest battery before that was 50MW. The new one in Calif is going to be 350MW. Big ones are going up everywhere. 
To your point Mark the battery is just now become cheap enough. Like wind, solar just kinda broke even on cost 3 years ago you could say the big battery Musk brought us just broke even a year ago. Now it’s the biggest market maybe in the world if you have the tech and the supply chain covered.

The problem is the supply chain, and that's a deal breaker. We are starting to see a run-up in battery input prices, which will become a runaway price barrier as green technology gets ramped up to any scale needed to become a primary energy source. Some day, if green transportation is the only permissable mode of travel, only wealthy people will be able to afford to purchase and operate a car. From a government which is supposed to be geared to the little guy, the future looks like the little guy is going to get shafted. The poor people will suffer a drastic decline in standard of living.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Symmetry + 109]

37 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The problem is the supply chain, and that's a deal breaker. We are starting to see a run-up in battery input prices, which will become a runaway price barrier as green technology gets ramped up to any scale needed to become a primary energy source. Some day, if green transportation is the only permissable mode of travel, only wealthy people will be able to afford to purchase and operate a car. From a government which is supposed to be geared to the little guy, the future looks like the little guy is going to get shafted. The poor people will suffer a drastic decline in standard of living.

If green ramps up enough car ownership should decline without a reduction in standard of living.

Think self-driving e-taxi (uber) and advanced amazon e-drone delivery, rent a car or fly for long trips.

 

 

[Ecocharger + 1,470]

1 hour ago, Symmetry said:

If green ramps up enough car ownership should decline without a reduction in standard of living.

Think self-driving e-taxi (uber) and advanced amazon e-drone delivery, rent a car or fly for long trips.

 

 

The government is thinking something else for the less-well-off masses...electrified public transit. That is unattractive right now, with the pandemic still in full swing, but if people get used to wearing masks for the foreseeable future, we might see governments enforce compulsory mass transit, all in the name of "climate crisis". In reality, the well-off would continue to drive their own private cars.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Ecocharger

[turbguy + 1,543]

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

I'm well aware of Moss Landing so now there are two batteries California which can generate comparatively small amounts of power for a few hours.. the 260 MVA figure you quote - please stick to the more comparable MV - is further example of straight fantasy. The 500 MW coal fired power unit was standard before I was born and the very point is that they keep on going. I would urge you to deflate your balloon.. but perhaps I'm simply wasting my time responding.. 

Generators are rated in MVA, as well as MW.

This was the world's first liquid-cooled (via oil) generator in 1954.  You could not get larger with only hydrogen cooling (at that time). It took a while longer to get to a single generator with larger capacity.  Cross-compound units (two shaft machines) could do more with their two generators.

My point is, battery storage is in it's infancy. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:13 PM, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ahh there is a foundation of culture, Keep Simple Stupid and I especially like Buy Low Sell High!

Buffering turbines variable output with batterys maybe a great solution. It's merely a matter cost, gas generation vs wind farm/battery generation. 

Speaking for myself that is the time for accountants, strictly the facts please no opinions...Once again Mr van Eck lays it out so clearly..Facts do indeed matter, opinions are rather messy.

 

The trouble is separating the true facts from the fake "facts". GIGO. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

3 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

The trouble is separating the true facts from the fake "facts". GIGO. 

Ohh i most certainly understand that, my personal opinion is to never under any circumstances let a accountant/business mgr/ cfo anywhere near a a conversation of policy or direction. Once that occurs they are ruined for life. Now that is merely a opinion and not meant to insult anyone individual..just the facts plz

[NickW + 2,714]

8 hours ago, Symmetry said:

If green ramps up enough car ownership should decline without a reduction in standard of living.

Think self-driving e-taxi (uber) and advanced amazon e-drone delivery, rent a car or fly for long trips.

 

 

Seeing that quite a lot in London. My cousin and her partner (both professionals) no longer own a car. They mostly use public transport, taxis and use ZIP car/van when they need personalised transport

They said they save a fortune in insurance, road tax, servicing plus they don't have £30-40K worth of vehicle depreciating on the driveway / street

[markslawson + 1,057]

21 hours ago, turbguy said:

his was the world's first liquid-cooled (via oil) generator in 1954.  You could not get larger with only hydrogen cooling (at that time). It took a while longer to get to a single generator with larger capacity.  Cross-compound units (two shaft machines) could do more with their two generators.

My point is, battery storage is in it's infancy. 

turbguy - again, you're in fantasy land.. I won't argue the history of steam turbines here except to note that they powered battleships before the first world war and were at 50 MW while Parsons (the inventor) was still alive.. however, comparing the development of turbines and batteries leads to wildly incorrect conclusions.. battery technology is not in its infancy. The devices have been around for a long time and have been the subject of intensive development for a couple of decades in particular. Sure there have been some improvements but nothing like the changes required for them to be a serious contender for grid level storage .. they've come down in price because lunatics have been buying more of them, but activists have then made the  basic forecasting mistake of assuming the price decline will continue indefinitely..  when grid operators do start buying batteries seriously call me, but not for isolated cases of a battery here or there, no matter how big you think it is. Anyway, that's as far as this issue can go. Leave it with you. 

[turbguy + 1,543]

13 minutes ago, markslawson said:

turbguy - again, you're in fantasy land.. I won't argue the history of steam turbines here except to note that they powered battleships before the first world war and were at 50 MW while Parsons (the inventor) was still alive.. however, comparing the development of turbines and batteries leads to wildly incorrect conclusions.. battery technology is not in its infancy. The devices have been around for a long time and have been the subject of intensive development for a couple of decades in particular. Sure there have been some improvements but nothing like the changes required for them to be a serious contender for grid level storage .. they've come down in price because lunatics have been buying more of them, but activists have then made the  basic forecasting mistake of assuming the price decline will continue indefinitely..  when grid operators do start buying batteries seriously call me, but not for isolated cases of a battery here or there, no matter how big you think it is. Anyway, that's as far as this issue can go. Leave it with you. 

Good points. It would be better to say, "Grid Level battery storage" is in it's infancy.

We ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

44 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Good points. It would be better to say, "Grid Level battery storage" is in it's infancy.

We ain't seen nothin' yet.

Renewable Energy Investment to Surpass USD 2.5 Trillion for 2010-2019, UNEP Report Finds

https://sdg.iisd.org/news/renewable-energy-investment-to-surpass-usd-2-5-trillion-for-2010-2019-unep-report-finds/

Edited March 11, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[Symmetry + 109]

41 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Renewable Energy Investment to Surpass USD 2.5 Trillion for 2010-2019, UNEP Report Finds

https://sdg.iisd.org/news/renewable-energy-investment-to-surpass-usd-2-5-trillion-for-2010-2019-unep-report-finds/

Go with the flow and make money; or don't, the choice is yours.

The paradigm is shifting.  If you haven't noticed yet the whinging of fossil humans does nothing.

[turbguy + 1,543]

53 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Renewable Energy Investment to Surpass USD 2.5 Trillion for 2010-2019, UNEP Report Finds

https://sdg.iisd.org/news/renewable-energy-investment-to-surpass-usd-2-5-trillion-for-2010-2019-unep-report-finds/

My calendar says 2021.

Unless I am missing something.

[El Gato + 254]

On 3/9/2021 at 7:49 PM, Symmetry said:

If green ramps up enough car ownership should decline without a reduction in standard of living.

Think self-driving e-taxi (uber) and advanced amazon e-drone delivery, rent a car or fly for long trips.

 

 

You are out of your urbanized mind. first off, this is the USA, land of independence, Car ownership is part of that independence, being able to go when and where they want anytime. The distances in this country are not worth the TIME waiting for the next uber, and you still have no range or affordability for green vehicles, and that is a long way off. 5-600 min on the range. The average family travels this amount for vacations, business trips and such, Just under plane trip range. Those drones are gonna make nice target practice when they cross over property where they aren't wanted or ALLOWED.

[Symmetry + 109]

9 hours ago, El Gato said:

You are out of your urbanized mind. first off, this is the USA, land of independence, Car ownership is part of that independence, being able to go when and where they want anytime. The distances in this country are not worth the TIME waiting for the next uber, and you still have no range or affordability for green vehicles, and that is a long way off. 5-600 min on the range. The average family travels this amount for vacations, business trips and such, Just under plane trip range. Those drones are gonna make nice target practice when they cross over property where they aren't wanted or ALLOWED.

You must live in a fly over state.  Poorly educated, gun-nut with a rusty truck... am I right?

The idea you think you own the airspace over your place is funny.  Shoot down a plane big boy and see how that goes.

I own a couple cars.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Symmetry

[El Gato + 254]

1 hour ago, Symmetry said:

You must live in a fly over state.  Poorly educated, gun-nut with a rusty truck... am I right?

The idea you think you own the airspace over your place is funny.  Shoot down a plane big boy and see how that goes.

I own a couple cars.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Just no the people and the country waaaaaaaay better than you do. And no, you don't shoot an airplane down. To use a laser against pilots flying aircraft will get the Feds on you in a hearbeat. Drones are entirely different and were the topic of discussion. Stay on point please

[Boat + 1,323]

On 3/9/2021 at 5:39 PM, markslawson said:

Boat - look and your post post, sit down and think.. how much difference would these batteries collectively make at all to the grids they are on? The answer is almost none. As I pointed out they have some balancing and frequency management use, because the grid has been messed up by the use of renewables. As for the rest of your post you've simply made up facts, or confused them. Wind and solar haven't broken even on costs .. what I think you mean is you think they reached some sort of parity in costs with conventional power sources.. they might have on a levelised cost basis (look it up) but not on grids. The problem of using renewables on grids are as bad as they ever were. As for the SA battery if you think its broken even on routine operations you must be psychic. I have yet to see independent figures on it. That said, it made some money last year when South Australia was isolated from the rest of the country and there were too few conventional plants, thanks to all the investment in renewables, to offer stuff like frequency management services (look it up). It was built with government money and the extension was also involved a lot of government grants. I urge you to let some of the air out of your balloon and come back to earth.    

I don’t really care about batteries, electric cars, wind or solar. I do like to read and look at trends and the silly politics around them. 
It’s just an opinion but the market is just to huge in many areas that trillions will chase.

This battery thing is the biggest thing since oil. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Boat

[turbguy + 1,543]

5 hours ago, Boat said:

I don’t really care about batteries, electric cars, wind or solar. I do like to read and look at trends and the silly politics around them. 
It’s just an opinion but the market is just to huge in many areas that trillions will chase.

This battery thing is the biggest thing since oil. 

There are other battery chemistries to consider for fixed storage.

[NickW + 2,714]

Hopefully Sodium will replace Lithium as the metal of choice for stationary batteries. 

There is about 12KG of elemental Sodium in every m3 of seawater. 

Sodium-Ion Battery | Alternatives to Lithium-Ion Batteries (popularmechanics.com)

[Meredith Poor + 895]

8 minutes ago, NickW said:

Hopefully Sodium will replace Lithium as the metal of choice for stationary batteries. 

There is about 12KG of elemental Sodium in every m3 of seawater. 

Sodium-Ion Battery | Alternatives to Lithium-Ion Batteries (popularmechanics.com)

https://natron.energy/

In case anyone wants to buy something.

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Meredith Poor said:

https://natron.energy/

In case anyone wants to buy something.

Faradion in the UK doing similar work

Partners - Faradion

[Symmetry + 109]

4 hours ago, turbguy said:

There are other battery chemistries to consider for fixed storage.

+1

Over half of the periodic table.

Pretty much any metal, in it's elemental form, can be used as a battery.  A block of metallic zinc can easily be turned into electricity.  A fun experiment for children or ward is to make a potato or lemon battery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_battery

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

13 hours ago, Boat said:

I don’t really care about batteries, electric cars, wind or solar. I do like to read and look at trends and the silly politics around them. 
It’s just an opinion but the market is just to huge in many areas that trillions will chase.

This battery thing is the biggest thing since oil. 

Now what you want to do is compare that energy use worldwide - as the graph seems to be - with electricity generation, petrol and diesel fueled cars, trucks and buses world wide.. the figures presented in that graph would barely rate as a pimple on a bump. Next you want to consider just how much would be there without regulatory requirements or lunatics screaming e-everything and the market was allowed to take its course. But in a world where batteries are seriously being touted as grid level storage by people who should know better, anything is possible I suppose. Anyway, leave it with you..   

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Now what you want to do is compare that energy use worldwide - as the graph seems to be - with electricity generation, petrol and diesel fueled cars, trucks and buses world wide.. the figures presented in that graph would barely rate as a pimple on a bump. Next you want to consider just how much would be there without regulatory requirements or lunatics screaming e-everything and the market was allowed to take its course. But in a world where batteries are seriously being touted as grid level storage by people who should know better, anything is possible I suppose. Anyway, leave it with you..   

But in a world where batteries are seriously being touted as grid level storage by people who should know better, anything is possible I suppose. Anyway, leave it with you..   

 

 

Six Chinese Companies Already in the Top 10 Global Marine Wind Turbine Manufacturers

China Is About to Bury Elon Musk in Batteries

Personally speaking i see a trend in the making.

 

https://seatitan.eu/six-chinese-companies-already-in-the-top-10-global-marine-wind-turbine-manufacturers/

https://www.industryweek.com/leadership/strategic-planning-execution/article/22021061/china-is-about-to-bury-elon-musk-in-batteries#:~:text=Chinese companies have plans for,Plug-in Hybrids per year.