GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

I did not predict, I just referred to some expert predictions...you seem to be having a bad day.

You should learn to distinguish long-term from short-term trends.

So you do not have independent thoughts and just refer to things without consideration? It is natural to assume people agree with the news they distribute.  They are "expert predictions" as you say.

Both your short and long-term forecasts have been wrong.  "Any year now" is worthless garbage.  You never said oil was going to go down more before rising; you said it was going to go up.

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,246]

Coal Remains On Its Throne Despite Transition Push | OilPrice.com

Coal still number ONE, lol. Gotta generate alot electricity to charge all them "pesky" EV's.  Coal is gonna be around for long time me thinks. Something ECO said is correct. And yes, oil will go up and down as it always has. Trying to say windmills and solar are going to totally displace FF is not in the near future. 

Edited October 28 by Old-Ruffneck

[Ecocharger + 1,480]

3 hours ago, notsonice said:

Times are tough all over????

maybe in your trailer park and with an Econ degree.......I would think times are tough for you

In the Good ole USA

Investopedia

Powerhouse U.S. Economy Likely Accelerated In Third Quarter

The U.S. economy likely gained momentum in the third quarter, as consumer spending boosted the Gross Domestic Product, if forecasters are...

.

5 hours

GDP booming ....3 percent a year

and jobs......well everyone has one expect those who are too lazy to work or .......are unqualified (IE they got worthless degrees)

and interest rates are moving down and inflation caused by the crazy oil prices of 2022 is gone

and EV sales are up up up only thing that is down is oil demand........6 percent drop in one day???? 

now you are an Economist.........working everyday as one?????? You tell us all, does the price of a commodity go down when demand is up or does it go down when demand is down??????

You are a degreed Economist and 6 percent drop in oil and the stock markets are at record highs.......and up again today  and you think that we are in a recession........hmmmmmm

record high stock prices are , from what I remember, do no happen in recessions

oh boy looks like the only losers in todays economy are oil producers , refiners and Nat gas producers

did you see the price of nat gas down over 10 percent  today....pesky renewables

looks like the only thing can move the price up in Oil is war in the Middle East that would affect supply as we all know demand is not a price driver today (last I checked the last  recession in the US was 2020).....Now maybe you still are living your fantasy that the US would be in a recession last year or this one....Boooo Hoooo your praying for bad things did not work

Oil Prices Today | OilPrice.com

Oil Continues Downward Slide Shedding Over 6%

Oil markets have continued the downward spiral, with oil prices falling dramatically after Israel launched limited attacks on Iran.

.

1 hour ago

World-News/Oil-Continues-Downward-Slide-Shedding-Over-6.html

 

 

InsideEVs

The U.S. Surpassed Europe In EV Sales Last Quarter: Report

Tesla, General Motors, Ford and others are driving record EV sales in the U.S., edging out Europe in the process.

.

3 days ago

 

Barron's

 

 

 

 

Demand can certainly increase when the price goes down, I guess you must have skipped your economics courses.

And demand for coal can definitely increase when EVs are promoted by the Chinese government.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Coal/Coal-Remains-On-Its-Throne-Despite-Transition-Push.html

"Both India and China have stated quite plainly that they will not be following the example of the UK and shutting down any coal power plants in the observable future.

Coal power provides the cheap energy that Chinese and other Asian manufacturers of wind and solar components and equipment—not to mention EVs—use to keep their products cheap.

These two countries will be driving coal demand growth over the near to medium term."

" ...no one outside Europe and the Anglosphere is giving up coal—not least in order to keep supplying Europe and the Anglosphere with the components of their top-priority electrification of everything. As Bloomberg’s Javier Blas put it, the energy transition is powered by coal."

"...they know that supplying the power that their economies and voters demand is more important than counting CO2 molecules.

Meanwhile, the UK is preparing scenarios for blackouts because its baseload capacity just got decimated with the shutdown of the country’s last coal power plant. Billions are being slated for investment in things like batteries and flywheels to store energy from wind and solar installations, but the realization that this cannot work without baseload capacity is yet to dawn on the Starmer government—as it is on the European authorities that are still pushing for an end to coal. If there is a perfect time to learn something important from China and India, that time is right now."

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

1 hour ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

Coal Remains On Its Throne Despite Transition Push | OilPrice.com

Coal still number ONE, lol. Gotta generate alot electricity to charge all them "pesky" EV's.  Coal is gonna be around for long time me thinks. Something ECO said is correct. And yes, oil will go up and down as it always has. Trying to say windmills and solar are going to totally displace FF is not in the near future. 

Just remember you can't say that you need a bunch of coal electricity for EVs and say that EVs are not increasing in numbers.  You and Eco complain about things like grid strain from EVs and then also claim there is low EV adoption.  It is a logic inconsistency, imagine complaining about all the flooding while saying it is not raining.

[notsonice + 1,262]

29 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Demand can certainly increase when the price goes down, I guess you must have skipped your economics courses.

And demand for coal can definitely increase when EVs are promoted by the Chinese government.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Coal/Coal-Remains-On-Its-Throne-Despite-Transition-Push.html

"Both India and China have stated quite plainly that they will not be following the example of the UK and shutting down any coal power plants in the observable future.

Coal power provides the cheap energy that Chinese and other Asian manufacturers of wind and solar components and equipment—not to mention EVs—use to keep their products cheap.

These two countries will be driving coal demand growth over the near to medium term."

" ...no one outside Europe and the Anglosphere is giving up coal—not least in order to keep supplying Europe and the Anglosphere with the components of their top-priority electrification of everything. As Bloomberg’s Javier Blas put it, the energy transition is powered by coal."

"...they know that supplying the power that their economies and voters demand is more important than counting CO2 molecules.

Meanwhile, the UK is preparing scenarios for blackouts because its baseload capacity just got decimated with the shutdown of the country’s last coal power plant. Billions are being slated for investment in things like batteries and flywheels to store energy from wind and solar installations, but the realization that this cannot work without baseload capacity is yet to dawn on the Starmer government—as it is on the European authorities that are still pushing for an end to coal. If there is a perfect time to learn something important from China and India, that time is right now."

Demand can certainly increase when the price goes down?????

and yet today no one showed up to buy oil as the price cratered.......now you are the expert....do you think it is the result of the lack of demand???? demand destruction??? the world is not in recession and energy production is at an all time high and yet oil demand sucks

and coal in China 

Oh my it is on the downward slope ...Pesky renewables ...and now China is on a rampage on Solar and Wind installation

2025 will not treat the oil and coal lovers with any good news

PS Just because you have a coal power plant does not mean it will be used...........Just look at what is happening in the US  and China Cowl power plant utilization factor

 

you keep clinging to your dream of Coal being King again  in reality the coal lovers are now just a bunch of Drama Queens

Coal power plants are at an all time low in China for beiing utilized.......pesky solar panels

 

S&P Global

As retirements charge on, remaining US coal fleet is being used less too

The US coal-fired power plant fleet continues to shrink, while the remaining coal burners are being used less than half of the time.

.

Apr 15, 2024

 

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

42 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Meanwhile, the UK is preparing scenarios for blackouts because its baseload capacity just got decimated with the shutdown of the country’s last coal power plant. Billions are being slated for investment in things like batteries and flywheels to store energy from wind and solar installations

So no more coal plants and billions in investment in energy storage.

 You did my favourite "meanwhile in reality" thing yourself.

[notsonice + 1,262]

run Luddite run

 

As the end for coal nears in Illinois.....pesky renewables

 

time is ticking 

 

Reuters

In Midwest first, Illinois bans fossil fuel electricity sources

Illinois became on Wednesday the first Midwest state to adopt a law that sets a roadmap to ban coal in the state, eliminate other...

.

Sep 15, 2021

 

CleanTechnica

Battery Storage Can Maintain Reliability, Even After Fossils Retire

New analysis shows that Illinois can maintain reliability even after retiring fossil resources by deploying 3 GW of 4-hour battery storage.

.

Aug 3, 2024

 

 

RWE

RWE begins onsite construction on its first utility-scale solar project in Illinois to support rapidly growing demand for clean power

RWE, a leading renewable energy company in the U.S., is building its first utility-scale solar project in Illinois to help the state meet...

.

Jun 11, 2024

 

Newsweek

Illinois to Get 'Largest Solar Project East of the Mississippi'

Construction is underway on an 800-megawatt solar project in southern Illinois, which developer Swift Current Energy describes as the largest US solar project...

.

Aug 30, 2024

 

Environment America

5 surprising facts about renewable energy growth in Illinois

Illinois produces 2.5 times as much energy from the sun and wind as it did a decade ago. Find more clean energy facts here.

.

5 days ago

Energy News Network

Study suggests a big role for grid battery storage as Illinois shutters its coal power plants

The latest PJM capacity auction results showed capacity prices increasing from $28.92/MW-Day for the 2024/25 period to $269.92/MW-Day — a nearly...

.

 

pv magazine USA

Illinois energy storage legislation may save ratepayers $30 per month

The pair of bills call for 8.5 GW of energy storage procurement across the state by 2050. The grid updates are forecast to save Illinois consumers $30 per...

.

2 weeks ago

 

 

Edited October 29 by notsonice

[specinho + 470]

11 hours ago, turbguy said:

Scanning ballots and counting/reporting the black dots it a TRIVIAL task!

Even a human can do it!

Although the human would make mistakes.

The hard part is designing the ballots correctly. That is not done in "software", a HUMAN does that.  And that task gets confirmed by a whole host of other humans, and then the tabulators as well.

Software does EXACTLY what it is told to do (damn it)!

 

There is an equilibrium that says:" when the machines get smarter, human get stupider".

 

Therefore, let's try not to outsmart the machines and technology but work with it in harmony.

Old counting method for small places with few hundred thousands residents per district has been: 

1. Open one ballot

2. Show witnesses ( usually 5) the ballot, who gets the vote

3. Divide the black board into  equal parts for candidates. Record with basic statistical bar counting mode i.e. ||||/ ||||/ 

4. Number is written when reaching 50 crossed bars.

5. Bars erased, restart the process. Add on new 50 to the number. Witnesses will record the bars and the numbers too to ensure there is no discrepancy.

6. Final sum of vote count should match the record of voters who presented themselves.

 

With technology, and majority of the people do not know the face and shape of their representatives, instead of  dots and such, it could be:

1. Photos of candidates, be displayed on personal screen.

2. Button below the chosen candidate is pressed.

3. Vote recorded behind the scene, witnessed by all candidates.

When voting ends, result is ready at the same time. Final sum of vote count should match the record of voters who presented themselves.

Hope it can be useful to larger population too.

This way, ghost ballots, mail ballots, fake ballots where discrepancy can easily happen, would be ommitted. One has to be present, be recorded, press the button, vote counted immediately. No overnight, fermenting votes where votes have possibility to multiply on their own...

Edited October 29 by specinho

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

21 minutes ago, specinho said:

There is an equilibrium that says:" when the machines get smarter, human get stupider".

 

Therefore, let's try not to outsmart the machines and technology but work with it in harmony.

Old counting method for small places with few hundred thousands residents per district has been: 

1. Open one ballot

2. Show witnesses ( usually 5) the ballot, who gets the vote

3. Divide the black board into  equal parts for candidates. Record with basic statistical bar counting mode i.e. ||||/ ||||/ 

4. Number is written when reaching 50 crossed bars.

5. Bars erased, restart the process. Add on new 50 to the number. Witnesses will record the bars and the numbers too to ensure there is no discrepancy.

 

With technology, and majority of the people do not know the face and shape of their representatives, instead of  dots and such, it could be:

1. Photos of candidates, be displayed on personal screen.

2. Button below the chosen candidate is pressed.

3. Vote recorded behind the scene, witnessed by all candidates.

When voting ends, result is ready at the same time.

Hope it can be useful to larger population too.

This way, ghost ballots, mail ballots, fake ballots where discrepancy can easily happen, would be ommitted. One has to be present, press the button, vote counted immediately. No overnight, fermenting votes where votes have possibility to multiply on their own...

You are overthinking this.  There is no problem with the voting systems. Trump cult said a bunch of lies that were discredited in court.

[turbguy + 1,547]

55 minutes ago, specinho said:

When voting ends, result is ready at the same time. Final sum of vote count should match the record of voters who presented themselves.

...and there must be another "space on the blackboard" you missed.  The record of those who voted for NO candidate in a race, but voted on other ballot issues instead.

Do you vote in your area? 

[specinho + 470]

6 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

You are overthinking this.  There is no problem with the voting systems. Trump cult said a bunch of lies that were discredited in court.

There was video recording posted here where moments of glitch happened within blinks of eyes.......

Many were laughing at the system and the glitches. Thought those were jokes.

Never thought it would be so severe that the justice system in a few counties or states  collapsed and tainted by those who were distorting democracy to their favour... Despite with proofs that malfunction and faul play happened, like videos......

Acknowledging Israel and announcement of moving embassy of United States to Jerusalem (?) by Jared (son-in-law of someone) might have been the source of trouble...

Now, with evidence showing a few German-Jews might have been orchestrating the massacre of 6 millions of their own kind,  Jews stampeding with power using genocide of jews as excuse, might have been tuning down. So are the other sides of players. Courts might resume normal proceeding,  un-intervened.

 

Imagine those experiment they did on their own tribe of 6 millions to find cure to potentially hidden diseases common only to them, these few desirers to be god, superhuman Aryan with deemed superior gene, are rather clear in representing chaos, dark side of mankind etc. If movie "surrogate mom" representing them trying to create replicates of themselves that born on demand, last forever, would you allow?

 

 

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

23 minutes ago, specinho said:

There was video recording posted here where moments of glitch happened within blinks of eyes.......

Many were laughing at the system and the glitches. Thought those were jokes.[]

Now, with evidence showing a few German-Jews might have been orchestrating the massacre of 6 millions of their own kind,  Jews stampeding with power using genocide of jews as excuse, might have been tuning down.

You jump from voter security issues to the Jews did the holocaust themselves?  Take your hate crimes elsewhere.

@selva

Edited October 29 by TailingsPond

[specinho + 470]

50 minutes ago, turbguy said:

...and there must be another "space on the blackboard" you missed.  The record of those who voted for NO candidate in a race, but voted on other ballot issues instead.

Do you vote in your area? 

They will modify accordingly...

I was not interested in politics, trying to avoid it at best. Yet, nearly got in working at embassy of United States here as secrete asylum seeker. Alas... An indian fatty and sister of another clan blocked my application at the entrance. Private introduction by a rich friend of the embassy was not successful. She too needed the income working for the embassy as assets newly frozen due to misconduct of her husband.

Lately, requesting help again when my best is not helpful to change my initial blessed fate that turned torturous and sad by manipulative few.

They pretend to be crazy using loophole of law that says " when you are in unsound mental state, you will be acquitted, including killing".

The country chief disgraces me at all occasion in front of media, within the country and outside. He once said:" How could you get up if I down you like this everywhere i go?"

Insane? Likely.

Corrupted? Likely. He told a group of students during an entourage to UK:" ....so what we are corrupted? Just want to teach you a lesson, do not fight with power. Let her learn the lesson".

Therefore, no, i do not vote. Too dangerous voting for imbeciles or insane or both.

Edited October 29 by specinho

[specinho + 470]

1 hour ago, TailingsPond said:

You are overthinking this.  There is no problem with the voting systems. Trump cult said a bunch of lies that were discredited in court.

 

42 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

You jump from voter security issues to the Jews did the holocaust themselves?  Take your hate crimes elsewhere.

@selva

You have poor understanding because you have preset your mind to one concept. Anything oppose to it will be repelled.

You said" there is no problem with the voting system".

I showed you malfunction happened, where votes multiplied within blinks.

I told you the reasons behind the malfunction and collapse of your justice system. You repelled it as hate speech.

Please support your accusation with proof. If not, you are mere slandering.

For references on the latest progress on that topic that deemed hate speech and that you might have missed, you need to scroll latest discussion board to find the articles.

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

18 minutes ago, specinho said:

 

I showed you malfunction happened, where votes multiplied within blinks.

I told you the reasons behind the malfunction and collapse of your justice system. You repelled it as hate speech.

Please support your accusation with proof. If not, you are mere slandering.

 

Pillow man and others lost everything from this election nonsense -  it has been decided in the courts; I will not entertain you on this.

Saying Jews caused the holocaust is unrelated and is hate speech.

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,246]

9 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Just remember you can't say that you need a bunch of coal electricity for EVs and say that EVs are not increasing in numbers.  You and Eco complain about things like grid strain from EVs and then also claim there is low EV adoption.  It is a logic inconsistency, imagine complaining about all the flooding while saying it is not raining.

If you read the article, just China is consuming more coal. Didn't say where they were getting the coal from? Yes they seem to be on board with the EV's for cars, big rigs are switching from diesel to LNG. 

[Ecocharger + 1,480]

The principal determinant of oil prices is the change in oil inventories.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Unexpected-Crude-Product-Draws-Send-Oil-Prices-Up.html

"Crude oil inventories in the United fell by 573,000 barrels for the week ending October 25, according to The American Petroleum Institute (API). Analysts had expected a build of 2.3 million barrels.

So far this year, crude oil inventories have slumped by just over 6 million barrels since the beginning of the year, according to API data."

[notsonice + 1,262]

6 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The principal determinant of oil prices is the change in oil inventories.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Unexpected-Crude-Product-Draws-Send-Oil-Prices-Up.html

"Crude oil inventories in the United fell by 573,000 barrels for the week ending October 25, according to The American Petroleum Institute (API). Analysts had expected a build of 2.3 million barrels.

So far this year, crude oil inventories have slumped by just over 6 million barrels since the beginning of the year, according to API data."

so when you looked at inventories did you peek at the long term in China????? which is the country that is driving the price

For the first eight months of the year, China added 1.11 million bpd to inventories....

so much for the great demand out there.....all that is happening with the small increase in demand this year is stockpiling

Ecochump....you got a degree in Econ?????? 

So in 2024 Global production is up by less than a million BPD and Global inventories are increasing more than production increases and you think the price should be moving up ????? or down?????

 

PS as a side note China Inventories were also up by 800,000 BPD in 2023.....China is sitting on a lot of crude these days......

China stored massive volumes of crude oil in August on ...

 

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com

 

 

 

 

Sep 16, 2024 — For the first eight months of the year, China added 1.11 million bpd to inventories, about 300,000 bpd more that for the same period last year 

Reuters

China's surplus crude oil hits nearly 1 million bpd for September

The weak position of China's crude oil sector was underlined by September data showing a sixth consecutive monthly drop in refinery...

.

1 week ago

Edited October 30 by notsonice

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The principal determinant of oil prices is the change in oil inventories.

Let's pretend that is true.  How is the price of oil doing?

Your logic says the falling inventory for the last year would have led to higher oil prices, yet they are lower. Remember, you said principle determinant so don't bring up that pretend recession.

"So far this year, crude oil inventories have slumped by just over 6 million barrels since the beginning of the year, according to API data."

Edited October 30 by TailingsPond

[notsonice + 1,262]

and the reason for falling crude.....is the massive overhang of China inventories....the price moves up a few dollars and the China oil trader steps in and sells inventories and takes a little profit....this is repeated over and over again

Enjoy $65 WTI....unless someone starts a major war

 

China's surplus crude oil hits nearly 1 million bpd for ...

Reuters

https://www.reuters.com

 

 

 

 

Oct 21, 2024 — Domestic production in September was 4.15 million bpd, up 1.1% from the same month last year, according to data from the National Bureau of ...

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

6 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The principal determinant of oil prices is the change in oil inventories.

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/report/global_oil.php

"Prices fell in September as concerns over global oil demand growth outweighed declines in oil inventories"

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 10/26/2024 at 3:05 AM, Ecocharger said:

Well, as a non-Economist, you cannot absorb the concept of social cost, which is foreign to you, obviously. You have tried here to switch the conversation away from your own chart above.

The "estimates" of social costs for non-electrical energy and fossil fuel energy from an extreme biased source is what I would expect from you.

The actual monetary government costs of EVs and electricity are available, should they ever be effectively tabulated. Also the major costs of misallocation of investments into electricity and EVs.

Youre just too funny, please keep it up!

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 10/29/2024 at 12:16 AM, Ecocharger said:

Meanwhile, the UK is preparing scenarios for blackouts because its baseload capacity just got decimated with the shutdown of the country’s last coal power plant. Billions are being slated for investment in things like batteries and flywheels to store energy from wind and solar installations, but the realization that this cannot work without baseload capacity is yet to dawn on the Starmer government—as it is on the European authorities that are still pushing for an end to coal. If there is a perfect time to learn something important from China and India, that time is right now."

Blackouts???? This is utter BS!

Coal represented 1% of roughly the 30GW per day of electricy generated for the grid over the last 12 months! A measly 290MW per day average.

Do you really think people in the UK are worried about blackouts when the last coal station is closed??? 

In 2012 the UK generated 15.63GW from coal, now 290MW, we have had no blackouts from switching to renewables.

This is what the UK is planning

The Energy Networks Association (ENA) has a 2024 action plan to release up to 90 gigawatts (GW) of capacity to decarbonize the UK's power grid. This plan includes:

• Releasing up to 90 GW of capacity
• Accelerating up to 70 GW of applications
• Making network planning processes more coordinated and realistic
• Changing the modeling and assumptions for storage projects 
   
   

The National Grid is also accelerating the connection of up to 20 GW of clean energy projects to its electricity transmission and distribution networks in England and Wales. This includes 19 battery energy storage projects worth around 10 GW and 10 GW of unlocked capacity on the distribution network. 

Edited October 30 by Rob Plant

[Ecocharger + 1,480]

On 10/30/2024 at 5:02 AM, Rob Plant said:

Youre just too funny, please keep it up!

Rob, I guess you are unaware of what is happening in the British luxury high-performance auto production.

Aston Martin is still producing fossil fuel cars and is having great success with them.

https://epic.uchicago.edu/news/internal-combustion-engines-are-far-from-over-there-was-a-bit-of-hype-around-evs-industry-watchers-say/

"Aston is far from alone. Bugatti’s new hypercar, coming June 20, still features a W16 engine. Lamborghini, the Italian supercar brand, said the successor to the Huracan packs a twin-turbo V8 engine.

“Enthusiasts absolutely want a V8 in the supercar segment,” Alex Long, director of product and strategy at Aston Martin, told ABC News. “They want the sound quality it brings, the feel through the cabin, everything. Our customers are not asking for an electric Aston.”

The anti-electric attitude extends beyond the enthusiast community. Forty-six percent of Americans say they are “not too likely or not at all likely to purchase” an EV, according to a recent poll by The Associated Press -NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the Energy Policy Institute at the University of Chicago.

Earlier this year, luxury German automaker Mercedes delayed its electrification plans by five years, with CEO Ola Kaellenius telling investors the company was still committed to producing combustion engine cars. Last month, Toyota executives announced its engineers were developing smaller, next-gen engines that can run on alternative fuels like liquid hydrogen.

Industry insiders are calling the trend “return to ICE,” or internal combustion engines."

And the financial rewards are obvious.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Aston-Martins-Pre-Tax-Losses-Plummet-by-90-in-Q3.html

"Aston Martin's pre-tax loss was 90 percent lower during its latest financial period, boosted by a rise in wholesale volumes.

The Warwickshire-headquartered luxury car maker has reported a pre-tax loss of £12.2m for its third quarter, down from the £117.6m loss it posted during the same three-month period in 2022.

New figures filed with the London Stock Exchange also show that Aston Martin’s revenue increased by eight percent to £391.6m over the same period."

Rob, you can borrow my handkerchief again and weep some more.

 

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

49 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, you can borrow my handkerchief again and weep some more.

Keep it up man, we enjoy the entertainment.

Super luxury brand sticking with gas for a bit longer is all you got? Aston Martin, Mercedes in the "supercar segment."

Those sports cars do not reflect everyday consumer vehicles, they are toys for the rich.