GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[TailingsPond + 498]

5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

What city have you got there, when was that picture taken?

Does it matter?  You know what caused that.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fossil+fuel+city+smog+pictures&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwipgdb76pOFAxV3GzQIHU7aBWAQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=fossil+fuel+city+smog+pictures&gs_lp=EgNpbWciHmZvc3NpbCBmdWVsIGNpdHkgc21vZyBwaWN0dXJlczIEECMYJ0iZCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFGoAFGqgEBMbgBA8gBAIoCC2d3cy13aXotaW1niAYB&sclient=img&ei=ab8DZumoFve20PEPzrSXgAY&bih=712&biw=1536&client=firefox-b-d&prmd=insvmbtz

 

https://lens.google.com/search?ep=gisbubb&hl=en-CA&re=df&p=AbrfA8rmykT8BS9IObIqCuSKlX-bCSsw-8gYenODWjj4o-00zKw1VFAvUZbBnThGkckTwOvhFtEPreL0ohfyRcnmIX-ZGlQYrxd75wvAXv9RDwo4xDjTiCtzc-mBOMayURlaZBknuf8l9E1MlaK6SyxWT258rCvzEQMonSq5Vr9GqzeWdRr1capFqsCbGH5dByQYd7cRSEhsVSmquQ%3D%3D#lns=W251bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLG51bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLG51bGwsIkVrY0tKREUyTlRKbE5qZ3hMVE0zTURFdE5HSTVNeTA0TlRjd0xUQmlZMlE0Tm1NeVpUQmhZUklmWTNkUVJteFBPVE5zY0d0bFZVTm1hVWxtYTFwaVJFTTVaVVpmY1RWNFp3PT0iLG51bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLDEsWyJhdXRvIiwiZW4tVVMiXSxbW11dXQ==

Edited March 27 by TailingsPond

[TailingsPond + 498]

Do I have to spoon feed you guys?  There are plenty of search tools for you to use.

[notsonice + 1,093]

20 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

What city have you got there, when was that picture taken?

https://www.momscleanairforce.org/

 

Smog in downtown Los Angeles. May 15, 2023. (KTLA)

Edited March 27 by notsonice

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

12 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Does it matter?  You know what caused that.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fossil+fuel+city+smog+pictures&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwipgdb76pOFAxV3GzQIHU7aBWAQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=fossil+fuel+city+smog+pictures&gs_lp=EgNpbWciHmZvc3NpbCBmdWVsIGNpdHkgc21vZyBwaWN0dXJlczIEECMYJ0iZCFAAWABwAHgAkAEAmAFGoAFGqgEBMbgBA8gBAIoCC2d3cy13aXotaW1niAYB&sclient=img&ei=ab8DZumoFve20PEPzrSXgAY&bih=712&biw=1536&client=firefox-b-d&prmd=insvmbtz

 

https://lens.google.com/search?ep=gisbubb&hl=en-CA&re=df&p=AbrfA8rmykT8BS9IObIqCuSKlX-bCSsw-8gYenODWjj4o-00zKw1VFAvUZbBnThGkckTwOvhFtEPreL0ohfyRcnmIX-ZGlQYrxd75wvAXv9RDwo4xDjTiCtzc-mBOMayURlaZBknuf8l9E1MlaK6SyxWT258rCvzEQMonSq5Vr9GqzeWdRr1capFqsCbGH5dByQYd7cRSEhsVSmquQ%3D%3D#lns=W251bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLG51bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLG51bGwsIkVrY0tKREUyTlRKbE5qZ3hMVE0zTURFdE5HSTVNeTA0TlRjd0xUQmlZMlE0Tm1NeVpUQmhZUklmWTNkUVJteFBPVE5zY0d0bFZVTm1hVWxtYTFwaVJFTTVaVVpmY1RWNFp3PT0iLG51bGwsbnVsbCxudWxsLDEsWyJhdXRvIiwiZW4tVVMiXSxbW11dXQ==

You asked us to take a look at the city. You need to identify where and when the photo is. Air quality changes drastically from one time to another, one year to another, one city from another.

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

14 hours ago, notsonice said:

https://www.momscleanairforce.org/

 

Smog in downtown Los Angeles. May 15, 2023. (KTLA)

Just to continue your line of thought, how does this level of L.A. smog differ from the smog levels twenty years ago? 

If fossil fuel usage is increasing drastically, how could smog levels decline? Your hypothesis needs elaboration.

You seem to be at odds with the EPA official numbers.

https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/air-quality-national-summary

"As a result of the permanent phase-out of leaded gasoline, controls on emissions of lead compounds through EPA’s air toxics program, and other national and state regulations, airborne lead concentrations in the U.S. decreased 98 percent between 1980 and 2005. After 2005, the EPA methodology for lead changed and is not comparable to the 2005 and earlier numbers. Since 2008, emissions have continued to decrease by 30 percent from 2008 to 2017. In the 2017 NEI, the highest amounts of Pb emissions are from Piston Engine Aircrafts, and Ferrous and Non-ferrous Metals industrial sources. The 2008 and 2017 estimates were used to approximate the 2010 to 2022 percent change."

"Annual emissions estimates are used as one indicator of the effectiveness of our programs. The graph below shows that between 1980 and 2022, gross domestic product increased 196 percent, vehicle miles traveled increased 108 percent, energy consumption increased 29 percent, and U.S. population grew by 47 percent. During the same time period, total emissions of the six principal air pollutants dropped by 73 percent. "

Edited March 27 by Ecocharger

[notsonice + 1,093]

31 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

That is not the city you showed earlier.

But just to continue your line of thought, how does this level of L.A. smog differ from the smog levels twenty years ago? 

If fossil fuel usage is increasing drastically, how could smog levels decline? Your hypothesis needs elaboration.

You seem to be at odds with the EPA official numbers.

https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/air-quality-national-summary

"As a result of the permanent phase-out of leaded gasoline, controls on emissions of lead compounds through EPA’s air toxics program, and other national and state regulations, airborne lead concentrations in the U.S. decreased 98 percent between 1980 and 2005. After 2005, the EPA methodology for lead changed and is not comparable to the 2005 and earlier numbers. Since 2008, emissions have continued to decrease by 30 percent from 2008 to 2017. In the 2017 NEI, the highest amounts of Pb emissions are from Piston Engine Aircrafts, and Ferrous and Non-ferrous Metals industrial sources. The 2008 and 2017 estimates were used to approximate the 2010 to 2022 percent change."

"Annual emissions estimates are used as one indicator of the effectiveness of our programs. The graph below shows that between 1980 and 2022, gross domestic product increased 196 percent, vehicle miles traveled increased 108 percent, energy consumption increased 29 percent, and U.S. population grew by 47 percent. During the same time period, total emissions of the six principal air pollutants dropped by 73 percent. "

That is not the city you showed earlier.????
 

I did not post the other photos.....

Tailings pond did..........

You seem agitated now

you do not like looking at Reality

You ask for a credible recent photo and you got it

Now do you accept the fact that air pollution exists from ICE vehicles????

photo speaks volumes

Air quality suffers everywhere because of the use of Fossil Fuels and Green Energy is so much less polluting than your beloved Coal Power Plants ....and EVs on the road.....please crawl under one.....no tailpipe Luddite

Edited March 27 by notsonice

[TailingsPond + 498]

30 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

You asked us to take a look at the city. You need to identify where and when the photo is. Air quality changes drastically from one time to another, one year to another, one city from another.

The air would never look like that without fossil fuels. The time and place is irrelevant.

Step one, open eyes.

Step two, see smog.

Step three, accept what you see with your own eyes.  Do you travel so little you have never seen smog?

You can argue your "CO2 is fine" nonsense but if you refuse to look at reality why would anybody listen to you?

You can do a Google image search yourself with the name of any large city and smog as search terms.  Do I need to spoon feed you?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=fd6552c9c3fda5e1&sxsrf=ACQVn0-gJxAhlaoC4Gnyob1W7TlqT1M9pg:1711569504858&q=fossil+fuel+smog+city&tbm=isch&source=lnms&prmd=insvmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjruGinZWFAxW9GjQIHVirDZoQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=1536&bih=712&dpr=1.25

Edited March 27 by TailingsPond

[TailingsPond + 498]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

L.A. smog differ from the smog levels twenty years ago? 

 

If fossil fuel usage is increasing drastically, how could smog levels decline?

You should know the answer to that.

Californian banned all 2-strokes and set very tight emission standards.  You have to get your car tested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Smog_Check_Program

Soon they will have even cleaner air due to more regulations against ICE crap.

Edited March 27 by TailingsPond

[Ron Wagner + 649]

On 3/17/2024 at 5:51 PM, notsonice said:

how is your grand tunneling project coming along????

too much natural smoke to figure out where to put the tunnels????

 

The Spanish explorers first commented about the smoke in what became Los Angeles. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,546]

14 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

What city have you got there, when was that picture taken?

Take notes here..Marine layer. This phenomenon has caused many very large freeway catastrophes. Never let a crisis go to waste comes to mind.

 

 

Edited March 27 by Eyes Wide Open

[Ron Wagner + 649]

13 hours ago, notsonice said:

https://www.momscleanairforce.org/

 

Smog in downtown Los Angeles. May 15, 2023. (KTLA)

There are bad days of smog in the most populated areas of Southern California. Mostly in the areas where the smog backs up against the hills, or when the barometric pressure keeps it down in the valleys. It is far better than it was long ago. It is liveable in almost all areas. If it wasn't people would move out. 

They are moving out because of lack of law enforcement, overbearing political leadership, etc. 

[notsonice + 1,093]

3 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

The Spanish explorers first commented about the smoke in what became Los Angeles. 

smoke not smog

and today it is not Indians burning brush....

smog comes from burning fossil fuels and we know how to fix the problem

smog is not a natural phenomena ....does not come from Indians cooking over an open fire.......

 

The smoke's origin remains a mystery. It may have been cooking fires burning in the many Tongva villages that dotted the Los Angeles coastal plain and interior valleys; in the sixteenth century, Southern California was one of the most densely populated regions in North America, and the area's inversion layer would have trapped campfire smoke then just as it traps automobile exhaust today.

Or perhaps the fleet had encountered the region during one of its now-notorious Santa Ana episodes, when hot winds from the east fuel violent conflagrations that turn the hills red and choke the area with smoke. If this latter scenario is correct, we find an interesting parallel in the account of the first land-based Spanish expedition through the Los Angeles area. Upon arriving at the confluence of the Los Angeles River and the Arroyo Seco on August 2, 1769, the company of soldiers, priests, and servants endured another natural disaster that still haunts Southern California residents:

[Ron Wagner + 649]

3 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Take notes here..Marine layer. This phenomenon has caused many very large freeway catastrophes. Never let a crisis go to waste comes to mind.

 

 

The worst fog I have ever seen was in Bakersfield, CA.  It was so dangerous that it was foolish to stay on the road! There have been many pileups on the freeways in the Central Valley. Some go way too fast, just because they can see some white lines!

[Ron Wagner + 649]

3 minutes ago, notsonice said:

smoke not smog

and today it is not Indians burning brush....

smog comes from burning fossil fuels and we know how to fix the problem

smog is not a natural phenomena ....does not come from Indians cooking over an open fire.......

 

The smoke's origin remains a mystery. It may have been cooking fires burning in the many Tongva villages that dotted the Los Angeles coastal plain and interior valleys; in the sixteenth century, Southern California was one of the most densely populated regions in North America, and the area's inversion layer would have trapped campfire smoke then just as it traps automobile exhaust today.

Or perhaps the fleet had encountered the region during one of its now-notorious Santa Ana episodes, when hot winds from the east fuel violent conflagrations that turn the hills red and choke the area with smoke. If this latter scenario is correct, we find an interesting parallel in the account of the first land-based Spanish expedition through the Los Angeles area. Upon arriving at the confluence of the Los Angeles River and the Arroyo Seco on August 2, 1769, the company of soldiers, priests, and servants endured another natural disaster that still haunts Southern California residents:

I lived almost half of my life in several spots in California. The wind in Illinois is far worse than what is normally seen in California. You can get your car sandblasted in desert dust storms though! We had to break camp and find a motel one time. 

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

6 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

The worst fog I have ever seen was in Bakersfield, CA.  It was so dangerous that it was foolish to stay on the road! There have been many pileups on the freeways in the Central Valley. Some go way too fast, just because they can see some white lines!

That stretch of highway is very fast, I have driven it several times to visit my first cousins in Visalia. I was surprised at how fast the cars were going given the condition of the highway. But then, I survived falling rocks on the coastal stretch near Eureka (visiting other cousins) which hit a truck in front of me, so in California you accept what nature has to offer.

The bottom line is that the smog problem everywhere has improved dramatically in the past twenty years in spite of a drastic increase in fossil fuel usage. Obviously, fossil fuels are not the problem. 

Edited March 27 by Ecocharger

[notsonice + 1,093]

16 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said:

There are bad days of smog in the most populated areas of Southern California. Mostly in the areas where the smog backs up against the hills, or when the barometric pressure keeps it down in the valleys. It is far better than it was long ago. It is liveable in almost all areas. If it wasn't people would move out. 

They are moving out because of lack of law enforcement, overbearing political leadership, etc. 

people move in people move out, LA and California population is static no big change over the last 10 years....

reason .....cost of housing ...

Los Angeles, CA housing marketIn February 2024, the median listing home price in Los Angeles, CA was $1.2M, trending up 6% year-over-year. The median listing home price per square foot was $718. The median home sold price was $950K.

 

reality super high demand area causes super high home prices........

and less population as young families cannot afford the price to buy Grandmas cottage in LA

and loss of manufacturing jobs due to high wages .all what you mention is BS (as usual)....

 

How is it your neck of the woods.....booming population???? ha ha ha or are you living in a crime ridden area with over bearing blah blah blah..............outside of the Chicago metro area..................been downhill for decades.....reason loss of manufacturing jobs......and where you live cost of a house????? I bet peanuts and you still are losing population.....Is Caterpillar gone??? not much manufacturing done by Cat in the Midwest these days.........

Decatur, IL Population by Year

 

Edited March 27 by notsonice

[Ron Wagner + 649]

7 minutes ago, notsonice said:

smoke not smog

and today it is not Indians burning brush....

smog comes from burning fossil fuels and we know how to fix the problem

smog is not a natural phenomena ....does not come from Indians cooking over an open fire.......

 

The smoke's origin remains a mystery. It may have been cooking fires burning in the many Tongva villages that dotted the Los Angeles coastal plain and interior valleys; in the sixteenth century, Southern California was one of the most densely populated regions in North America, and the area's inversion layer would have trapped campfire smoke then just as it traps automobile exhaust today.

Or perhaps the fleet had encountered the region during one of its now-notorious Santa Ana episodes, when hot winds from the east fuel violent conflagrations that turn the hills red and choke the area with smoke. If this latter scenario is correct, we find an interesting parallel in the account of the first land-based Spanish expedition through the Los Angeles area. Upon arriving at the confluence of the Los Angeles River and the Arroyo Seco on August 2, 1769, the company of soldiers, priests, and servants endured another natural disaster that still haunts Southern California residents:

The derivation of the word smog is a combination of smoke and fog. 

[Ron Wagner + 649]

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

That stretch of highway is very fast, I have driven it several times to visit my first cousins in Visalia. I was surprised at how fast the cars were going given the condition of the highway. But then, I survived falling rocks on the coastal stretch near Eureka (visiting other cousins) which hit a truck in front of me, so in California you accept what nature has to offer.

The bottom line is that the smog problem everywhere has improved dramatically in the past twenty years in spite of a drastic increase in fossil fuel usage. Obviously, fossil fuels are not the problem. 

Natural gas vehicles are the best realistic solution. Especially for trucks and pickup trucks, busses etc. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,546]

1 minute ago, Ron Wagner said:

The derivation of the word smog is a combination of smoke and fog. 

Ya Don't Say....now marry that with high population densities...50 yr old automotive engines and LA's unique environment...POOF!

[Ron Wagner + 649]

4 minutes ago, notsonice said:

people move in people move out, LA and California population is static, big change over the last 10 years....

reason .....cost of housing ...

Los Angeles, CA housing marketIn February 2024, the median listing home price in Los Angeles, CA was $1.2M, trending up 6% year-over-year. The median listing home price per square foot was $718. The median home sold price was $950K.

 

and loss of manufacturing jobs due to high wages .all what you mention is BS (as usual)....

 

How is it your neck of the woods.....booming population???? ha ha ha or are you living in a crime ridden area with over bearing blah blah blah..............outside of the Chicago metro area..................been downhill for decades.....reason loss of manufacturing jobs......and where you live cost of a house????? I bet peanuts and you still are losing population.....Is Caterpillar gone??? not much manufacturing done by Cat in the Midwest these days.........

 

 

Chicagoland runs the politics in Illinois. People are moving out of Chicago as far as they can commute. Unfortunately they are still voting liberal and taxes and business restrictions are not good compared to our neighboring states. I live in Decatur on the fringes. We have a typical urban core with crime but many wonderful neighborhoods with beautiful homes on large lots or acreage. I live on an acre with dozens of trees. Five of them are very large burr oaks that are 150 years old. My lot and house would cost millions in California. They would scrape my fairly new house and put a McMansion on it. I think your values are all about money rather than nature and beauty. I have always lived on the fringes of population centers. I thank God for that. 

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

47 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

You should know the answer to that.

Californian banned all 2-strokes and set very tight emission standards.  You have to get your car tested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Smog_Check_Program

Soon they will have even cleaner air due to more regulations against ICE crap.

You are not even close to reality. 

During the last twenty years when fossil fuel usage has drastically increased, the smog problem has drastically decreased.

Got it? More fossil fuels, less smog.

"Annual emissions estimates are used as one indicator of the effectiveness of our programs. The graph below shows that between 1980 and 2022, gross domestic product increased 196 percent, vehicle miles traveled increased 108 percent, energy consumption increased 29 percent, and U.S. population grew by 47 percent. During the same time period, total emissions of the six principal air pollutants dropped by 73 percent. "

[Ron Wagner + 649]

7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ya Don't Say....now marry that with high population densities...50 yr old automotive engines and LA's unique environment...POOF!

I lived through the worst area of smog in Los Angeles. I arrived in 1950 from Detroit. It was starting to get bad then, I think the worst smog was probably in the sixties through the 70s when air pollution was starting to be controlled by car manufacturers. Trucks could be run on natural gas. That would be a great answer, but natural gas BAD per politicians and ecodummies. 

[Ron Wagner + 649]

28 minutes ago, notsonice said:

people move in people move out, LA and California population is static no big change over the last 10 years....

reason .....cost of housing ...

Los Angeles, CA housing marketIn February 2024, the median listing home price in Los Angeles, CA was $1.2M, trending up 6% year-over-year. The median listing home price per square foot was $718. The median home sold price was $950K.

 

reality super high demand area causes super high home prices........

and less population as young families cannot afford the price to buy Grandmas cottage in LA

and loss of manufacturing jobs due to high wages .all what you mention is BS (as usual)....

 

How is it your neck of the woods.....booming population???? ha ha ha or are you living in a crime ridden area with over bearing blah blah blah..............outside of the Chicago metro area..................been downhill for decades.....reason loss of manufacturing jobs......and where you live cost of a house????? I bet peanuts and you still are losing population.....Is Caterpillar gone??? not much manufacturing done by Cat in the Midwest these days.........

Decatur, IL Population by Year

 

This is a great place to live, and I have lived all over from the Midwest to the Pacific. We have mild weather, great suburbs, lakes, lots of trees, some hills. Southern Illinois is even more beautiful. If you want to make a lot of money go to Chicagoland in a distant suburb. I lived that life in Los Angeles. My homes there are now around half a million dollars. You can buy acreage on a lake for that amount here. I pick here. I have lived the best years of my life here in the last 37 years. Our area is attracting new large businesses because they know what we have to offer. We are the soybean capital of the world, and a large agricultural processing area. We produce huge Caterpillar trucks, corn products, soybean products, among other things. 

My nephew moved from Eastvale, California in a big new house to California Missouri, about eight years ago. He and his family live on twenty acres in another big house, just as good. They hunt deer on their own property. in a beautiful hilly area. If I were young I would move there too, but I have a great place already. 

Edited March 27 by Ron Wagner

[Ron Wagner + 649]

If you want to know about air pollution this might be the best site for the USA. https://www.epa.gov/outdoor-air-quality-data

[TailingsPond + 498]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Got it? More fossil fuels, less smog.

 

More regulations, less smog, got it?

Don't play coy, you know they passed anti-smog laws.  Do you want more regulations? 

Your sentence almost suggests that fossil fuels reduce smog!  You know that is not true. 

Be honest with yourself or pay the psychological price, you are creating internal conflicts.  You know fossil fuel exhaust is bad, every time you pretend otherwise you lose character.