GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[turbguy + 1,544]

42 minutes ago, Boat said:

The new battery plant for grid storage being built by Tesla will have a capacity of LA demand x 3 for 6 hrs. There are rumors of another battery plant in Canada. This is like the beginning, phase 2. It will still take a few years for grid batteries to get to decent scale but the trend is clear. Of course the trend was clear years ago for many energy changes but that’s another story. 

Hopefully, they will use grid forming inverters.  Without those in place, they are asking for future troubles.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:05 PM, turbguy said:

Coal ash is the "real estate" in the coal that won't, or didn't, combust.  Steam (thermal) coal typically has about 5% to 15% of the mass transported from the mine to a plant, be ash.  Lesser ash content coals tends to be used "metallurgically" (more profit).

Coal ash comes in two main "types":

Fly ash (that is, the real estate entrained in the flue gases), typically removed/collected to a very significant degree by ESP's and Bag-houses.  It can appear somewhat similar to wheat flour in consistency. Fly ash with acceptable "unburned carbon content" can be sold (at a good price) as a substitute for Portland cement.

Bottom Ash/Slag (that is, the real estate that drops to the firebox/furnace floor as solids or liquids), is typically dumped into water, and the resultant slurry pumped into local waste ponds, then potentially trucked off-site to disposal into landfill.

I don't have a problem recovering REE's from bottom ash, but there must be some mass and spent reagents left over that STILL has to be disposed of, somewhere.

The paper does not describe the process's inevitable waste stream. 

The waste is negligible and not a problem, overshadowed by the enormous importance of the rare metals extracted from the ash. This is HUGE.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

1 hour ago, Boat said:

The new battery plant for grid storage being built by Tesla will have a capacity of LA demand x 3 for 6 hrs. There are rumors of another battery plant in Canada. This is like the beginning, phase 2. It will still take a few years for grid batteries to get to decent scale but the trend is clear. Of course the trend was clear years ago for many energy changes but that’s another story. 

Trend and economic rationality are two different measures for abstract philosophies.

[notsonice + 1,255]

3 hours ago, ronwagn said:

How much has the population increased since 1960?

 

In a report released worldwide yesterday, it said the Earth’s population had doubled since 1960 to 6.1 billion, with growth mainly in poorer countries.

So not much improvement per capita. RCW

So not much improvement per capita???? form the great oil embargo of 1973 to now, look at the second chart from over 22 tons of CO2 per capita to 15 today (48 years)  the trend down is accelerated since 2000 to now. By year 2030? less than 12 tons per capita? check back to this thread in  2030. My bet EV's coupled with renewables will bring it down under 10 tons per capita by 2030. Total Kilotons of CO2 less than 4,000,000 by 2030?????

Edited November 19, 2021 by notsonice

[nsdp + 449]

2 hours ago, turbguy said:

Hopefully, they will use grid forming inverters.  Without those in place, they are asking for future troubles.

Grid forming inverters cause more problems than they solve. LBNL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZtzgWsWIms and NREL:https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/73476.pdf

"Transitioning to a grid with more inverter-based resources poses major challenges because the operation of future power systems must be based on a combination of the physical properties and control responses of traditional, large synchronous generators as well as those of numerous and diverse inverter-based resources (see Figure ES-1). These challenges stem from the recognition that there is no established body of experience for operating hybrid power systems with significant amounts of inverter-based resources at the scale" than

Understanding Stability of Low-Inertia SystemsLBNL https://www.youtube.com

Grid Tie Inverters cause more problems they solve in transient instability.

[turbguy + 1,544]

54 minutes ago, nsdp said:

Grid forming inverters cause more problems than they solve. LBNL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZtzgWsWIms and NREL:https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/73476.pdf

"Transitioning to a grid with more inverter-based resources poses major challenges because the operation of future power systems must be based on a combination of the physical properties and control responses of traditional, large synchronous generators as well as those of numerous and diverse inverter-based resources (see Figure ES-1). These challenges stem from the recognition that there is no established body of experience for operating hybrid power systems with significant amounts of inverter-based resources at the scale" than

Understanding Stability of Low-Inertia SystemsLBNL https://www.youtube.com

Grid Tie Inverters cause more problems they solve in transient instability.

I agree, for existing inverters.

My "idea" of a grid-forming inverter would make a DC supply (batteries, solar, offshore wind) be indistinguishable from a large synchronous machine.

Power electronics (with significant reserve margins) and software.

Not cheap.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,544]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The waste is negligible and not a problem, overshadowed by the enormous importance of the rare metals extracted from the ash. This is HUGE.

If it's so huge,why bother dealing with coal ash?

Go directly to the real estate instead.

[notsonice + 1,255]

8 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The waste is negligible and not a problem, overshadowed by the enormous importance of the rare metals extracted from the ash. This is HUGE.

the extraction process??? has to be hydromet based IE acid digestion. How much acid do you think it will take to dissolve 1 ton of ash....then the selective precipitation steps...... oh boy I can see the mass volumes of Ca SO4.xH2O slimes MgSO4 xH2O slimes FeSO4.xH2O slimes.....Massive filter presses trying to dewater the sludges......then you have to dispose of the worthless sludges....Hazardous wastes as the sludges will have lots of lead , cadmium and all the other metals that define hazardous waste.....RCRA.......Fly ash has special exemptions that was carved out of the RCRA rules and is not treated the same as the waste products that would be created after trying to digest fly ash for metals recoveries. The reason why fly ash is not refined into metals today is???? it is so impractical and uneconomic it is not done.. rare earths from fly ash...... a true money pit. Looks great on paper....in reality a money pit. HUGE money pit.

Edited November 19, 2021 by notsonice

[ronwagn + 6,290]

22 hours ago, Boat said:

So is the industry exercising discipline or is it Biden’s fault the prices are high. I’m not sure you can claim both. It gets confusing. Drillers are doing fine and expanding all the time. There getting ready to set records in the Permian. Is that because Biden loves the Permian like Obama did? They/Biden just had a successful lease sale in the Gulf. Was that anti FF. Was selling drilling rights lent to curtail production? Let me guess, you were robbed in the election. Lol Sometimes I worry about you boys. 

There are two sides to the story. I am on the side of "all of the above" energy production which includes wind, solar, geothermal, oil, pipelines, electrical lines, natural gas, propane, alcohol, biofuels, and nuclear or coal if that must be used. 

I am opposed to fascism which entails the government choosing the winners and making deals with the crony capitalists which line their own pockets. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

22 hours ago, notsonice said:

So not much improvement per capita???? form the great oil embargo of 1973 to now, look at the second chart from over 22 tons of CO2 per capita to 15 today (48 years)  the trend down is accelerated since 2000 to now. By year 2030? less than 12 tons per capita? check back to this thread in  2030. My bet EV's coupled with renewables will bring it down under 10 tons per capita by 2030. Total Kilotons of CO2 less than 4,000,000 by 2030?????

I don't think you are realistic regarding the timeline. Coal will continue to be used throughout industrialization of Asia if something better doesn't prove itself. 

I am much more concerned with air and water pollution than the global warming theories. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e8961cdcbb9c05d73b3f9c4/t/6179eb9cf8ac24238842374d/1635380127410/HyDeal+LA+Phase+1+Takeaways.pdf

File promoting hydrogen in Los Angeles. 

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

I will not be buying an EV, not after reading this evaluation. It just does not make any kind of sense.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Electric-SUVs-Rank-Lowest-In-Reliability-Consumer-Reports.html

"Electric SUVs as a category were rated the most unreliable vehicles, Consumer Reports director of vehicle testing, Jack Fisher, said on Thursday.

Not even Tesla's Model Y SUV—the U.S. EV-maker's best-selling vehicle—escaped the poor ratings by Consumer Reports.

Only one electric SUV—Ford's Mustang Mach-E, earned an "above-average reliability" rating.

"Electric SUVs as a vehicle category is the absolute bottom in terms of reliability," Fisher said, who took aim at Tesla's 'self-driving' feature as well.

"Full self driving is not full self-driving at all. It's a convenience feature."

Overall, Consumer Reports ranked electric SUVs and Teslas among the least reliable models sold in the United States. Tesla ranked a disappointing 27 out of 28 rated auto brands, with only Lincoln coming in lower."

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:43 PM, turbguy said:

If it's so huge,why bother dealing with coal ash?

Go directly to the real estate instead.

The real estate is outside of this country...mainly in China.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:57 PM, notsonice said:

So not much improvement per capita???? form the great oil embargo of 1973 to now, look at the second chart from over 22 tons of CO2 per capita to 15 today (48 years)  the trend down is accelerated since 2000 to now. By year 2030? less than 12 tons per capita? check back to this thread in  2030. My bet EV's coupled with renewables will bring it down under 10 tons per capita by 2030. Total Kilotons of CO2 less than 4,000,000 by 2030?????

None of which matters at all for climate change.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:25 AM, notsonice said:

the extraction process??? has to be hydromet based IE acid digestion. How much acid do you think it will take to dissolve 1 ton of ash....then the selective precipitation steps...... oh boy I can see the mass volumes of Ca SO4.xH2O slimes MgSO4 xH2O slimes FeSO4.xH2O slimes.....Massive filter presses trying to dewater the sludges......then you have to dispose of the worthless sludges....Hazardous wastes as the sludges will have lots of lead , cadmium and all the other metals that define hazardous waste.....RCRA.......Fly ash has special exemptions that was carved out of the RCRA rules and is not treated the same as the waste products that would be created after trying to digest fly ash for metals recoveries. The reason why fly ash is not refined into metals today is???? it is so impractical and uneconomic it is not done.. rare earths from fly ash...... a true money pit. Looks great on paper....in reality a money pit. HUGE money pit.

No, this is a new process, cost effective.

[notsonice + 1,255]

4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, this is a new process, cost effective.

it is an acid (citric acid) digestion process in an autoclave.......The practice solubilizes (does not means separates)  40 percent of  the metals so you still have to handle all of the sludges generated which  all will be worthless and contain toxic metals (and any toxic metals in solubilized have to also be separated out.......as working in an autoclave with acid is a wet process...

If you noticed in the patent app it states that it solubilizes  all metals not selectively extracting just the rare earths.   

Nothing on the costs in the article. Nothing in the article on what do with all the sludges left over (which will all be considered toxic as the waste product will no longer be exempt from RCRA rules for toxic waste) Patent applications do not mean that the patent is cost effective. Cost effective ??? Where do you come up with your BS? nothing in the article on how much citric acid is used, Citric acid is not cheap...... Newsflash ...in an autoclave you can digest metal oxides with acid better than in the atmosphere...which has been know for 100 years plus. This is the only thing they are claiming. Still does not make it a game changer

Edited November 20, 2021 by notsonice

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:32 PM, Boat said:

So is the industry exercising discipline or is it Biden’s fault the prices are high. I’m not sure you can claim both. It gets confusing. Drillers are doing fine and expanding all the time. There getting ready to set records in the Permian. Is that because Biden loves the Permian like Obama did? They/Biden just had a successful lease sale in the Gulf. Was that anti FF. Was selling drilling rights lent to curtail production? Let me guess, you were robbed in the election. Lol Sometimes I worry about you boys. 

The Gulf sale just occurred and was unexpected. Biden and the Democrats are running scared now. That is the only reason the sale went through. Actual production will take a lot of time though. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

China says it will spend billions on clean coal. https://www.breitbart.com/environment/2021/11/18/china-invest-31-billion-clean-coal/

[notsonice + 1,255]

9 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

The Gulf sale just occurred and was unexpected. Biden and the Democrats are running scared now. That is the only reason the sale went through. Actual production will take a lot of time though. 

257

257 was first proposed Nov 2020 (scheduled for March 2021) delayed by Bidens pause then rescheduled on Sept 30 for yesterday....Not unexpected. Running scared??? Where do you all come up with your BS? PS if you notice 256 was scheduled for Aug 2020 and finally went Nov 2020. 

 

BOEM Proposes First Gulf Oil and Gas Lease Sale for 2021

Sub title

Proposed Notice of Sale Outlines All Available Areas in Region-wide Auction

Release Date

11/17/2020

Contact(s)

Email

Beverly Winston

Phone

(202) 709-0441

NEW ORLEANS – The Bureau of Ocean Energy Management (BOEM) proposes to offer approximately 78.2 million acres for a region-wide Gulf of Mexico lease sale scheduled for March 2021. Lease Sale 257, scheduled to be livestreamed from New Orleans, will be the eighth offshore sale under the 2017-2022 Outer Continental Shelf Oil and Gas Leasing Program.  The sale will include approximately 14,594 unleased blocks – all of the available unleased areas in federal waters of the Gulf of Mexico. 

The Notice of Availability (NOA) of the Proposed Notice (PNOS) of Sale for Lease Sale 257 will be published tomorrow, Nov. 18, in the Federal Register. BOEM will also hold Lease Sale 256 on Nov. 18. Sale 256 was delayed from its planned August 2020 date to allow time for additional analysis of oil and gas markets in light of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[notsonice + 1,255]

16 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I don't think you are realistic regarding the timeline. Coal will continue to be used throughout industrialization of Asia if something better doesn't prove itself. 

I am much more concerned with air and water pollution than the global warming theories. 

What are your estimates for 2030? generic statements are not estimates

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

47 minutes ago, notsonice said:

it is an acid (citric acid) digestion process in an autoclave.......The practice solubilizes (does not means separates)  40 percent of  the metals so you still have to handle all of the sludges generated which  all will be worthless and contain toxic metals (and any toxic metals in solubilized have to also be separated out.......as working in an autoclave with acid is a wet process...

If you noticed in the patent app it states that it solubilizes  all metals not selectively extracting just the rare earths.   

Nothing on the costs in the article. Nothing in the article on what do with all the sludges left over (which will all be considered toxic as the waste product will no longer be exempt from RCRA rules for toxic waste) Patent applications do not mean that the patent is cost effective. Cost effective ??? Where do you come up with your BS? nothing in the article on how much citric acid is used, Citric acid is not cheap...... Newsflash ...in an autoclave you can digest metal oxides with acid better than in the atmosphere...which has been know for 100 years plus. This is the only thing they are claiming. Still does not make it a game changer

It will be, and soon.

[notsonice + 1,255]

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

It will be, and soon.

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Have you ever worked with slimes and filter presses?

[notsonice + 1,255]

Here is the reality in the Oil/Gasoline price surge......The futures markets are all betting  against high oil/gasoline. More inflation from higher gas prices??? not in the futures markets....more like deflation on the oil/gas end of life

RECENT CONTRACTS

	LAST	CHG	OPEN	HIGH	LOW	DATE/TIME
Crude Oil Jan 2022	$75.68	-0.26	$78.29	$79.33	$75.09	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Feb 2022	$74.99	-0.24	$77.41	$78.47	$74.44	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Mar 2022	$74.14	-0.28	$76.47	$77.52	$73.69	Nov 19, 2021 4:58 p.m.
Crude Oil Apr 2022	$73.34	-0.32	$75.55	$76.64	$73.00	Nov 19, 2021 4:45 p.m.
Crude Oil May 2022	$72.61	-0.34	$74.79	$75.80	$72.38	Nov 19, 2021 4:45 p.m.
Crude Oil Jun 2022	$72.03	-0.26	$74.08	$75.09	$71.73	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Jul 2022	$71.38	-0.29	$73.42	$74.30	$71.21	Nov 19, 2021 3:49 p.m.
Crude Oil Aug 2022	$70.77	-0.32	$73.63	$73.63	$70.66	Nov 19, 2021 4:49 p.m.
Crude Oil Sep 2022	$70.28	-0.27	$72.18	$72.96	$70.12	Nov 19, 2021 4:55 p.m.
Crude Oil Oct 2022	$69.68	-0.35	$71.65	$72.28	$69.68	Nov 19, 2021 4:08 p.m.

 

NOV 2021 RLXX1	OPT		-	-	2.3214	-	-	-	0	16:37:56 CT 19 Nov 2021
DEC 2021 RLXZ1	OPT		-	-	2.2427	-	-	-	0	16:37:56 CT 19 Nov 2021
JAN 2022 RLXF2	OPT		-	-	2.2237	-	-	-	0	16:37:58 CT 19 Nov 2021
FEB 2022 RLXG2	OPT		-	-	2.2265	-	-	-	0	16:38:27 CT 19 Nov 2021
MAR 2022 RLXH2	OPT		-	-	2.3389	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
APR 2022 RLXJ2	OPT		-	-	2.3334	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
MAY 2022 RLXK2	OPT		-	-	2.3168	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
JUN 2022 RLXM2	OPT		-	-	2.2911	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
JUL 2022 RLXN2	OPT		-	-	2.2593	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
AUG 2022 RLXQ2	OPT		-	-	2.2211	-	-	-	0	16:38:03 CT 19 Nov 2021
SEP 2022 RLXU2	OPT		-	-	2.0802	-	-	-	0	16:38:02 CT 19 Nov 2021
OCT 2022 RLXV2	OPT		-	-	2.0420	-	-	-	0	16:38:05 CT 19 Nov 2021
NOV 2022 RLXX2	OPT		-	-	2.0153	-	-	-	0	16:38:05 CT 19 Nov 2021
DEC 2022 RLXZ2	OPT		-	-	2.0003	-	-	-	0	16:38:05 CT 19 Nov 2021
JAN 2023 RLXF3	OPT		-	-	1.9973	-	-	-	0	16:37:23 CT 19 Nov 2021
FEB 2023 RLXG3	OPT		-	-	2.0038	-	-	-	0	16:37:23 CT 19 Nov 2021
MAR 2023 RLXH3	OPT		-	-	2.1340	-	-	-	0	16:37:23 CT 19 Nov 2021
APR 2023 RLXJ3	OPT		-	-	2.1357	-	-	-	0	16:37:19 CT 19 Nov 2021

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by notsonice

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

8 minutes ago, notsonice said:

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. Have you ever worked with slimes and filter presses?

I have worked with a lot of slimes and exchanged many posts with half-asleep wokes. I try to avoid doing so.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

8 minutes ago, notsonice said:

Here is the reality in the Oil price surge......The futures markets are all betting  against high oil

RECENT CONTRACTS

	LAST	CHG	OPEN	HIGH	LOW	DATE/TIME
Crude Oil Jan 2022	$75.68	-0.26	$78.29	$79.33	$75.09	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Feb 2022	$74.99	-0.24	$77.41	$78.47	$74.44	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Mar 2022	$74.14	-0.28	$76.47	$77.52	$73.69	Nov 19, 2021 4:58 p.m.
Crude Oil Apr 2022	$73.34	-0.32	$75.55	$76.64	$73.00	Nov 19, 2021 4:45 p.m.
Crude Oil May 2022	$72.61	-0.34	$74.79	$75.80	$72.38	Nov 19, 2021 4:45 p.m.
Crude Oil Jun 2022	$72.03	-0.26	$74.08	$75.09	$71.73	Nov 19, 2021 4:59 p.m.
Crude Oil Jul 2022	$71.38	-0.29	$73.42	$74.30	$71.21	Nov 19, 2021 3:49 p.m.
Crude Oil Aug 2022	$70.77	-0.32	$73.63	$73.63	$70.66	Nov 19, 2021 4:49 p.m.
Crude Oil Sep 2022	$70.28	-0.27	$72.18	$72.96	$70.12	Nov 19, 2021 4:55 p.m.
Crude Oil Oct 2022	$69.68	-0.35	$71.65	$72.28	$69.68	Nov 19, 2021 4:08 p.m.

Look at the long term effects of investment rules. Restricted supply will happen.