GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[turbguy + 1,544]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Renewables are dependent on massive public funding, which would bankrupt any nation on this planet. That is not a practicable route forward for the electrical path of tomorrow, there are capacity limits both physically and financially.

Further, the massive public commitment to support electrification is based on a false public hysteria over a mistaken climate model, attributing climate change to CO2 levels, a hypothesis which is easily disproven. Reality will prevail long before the renewables and the the onerous and unsustainable financial commitments to renewables begin to cause serious pain to already overstretched government budgets.

The Interstate Highway System required massive public funding (still does).

Rural Electrification required massive public funding.

The Air Traffic Control System required massive public funding.

Trips to the Moon required MASSIVE public funding.

Is the USA "bankrupt"??  With 31 trillion dollars of debt (most held by We the People), perhaps it is in the view of some.

The earth receives over 3 orders of magnitude of solar energy over the TOTAL amount of watts required by ALL of humanity for ALL it's energy requirements. The "capacity" is easily there.  And that doesn't even count geothermal sources, which, IMO, is where huge expansions of electric generation will eventually arise.

Is it gonna be cheap?  No.

Is it possible?  Yes.

Is petroleum going away?  No.

Can an argument be proposed that climate change is NOT "anthopologic"?  Certainly!

Exxon seemed to agree is was human-caused, YEARS ago. 

The reason we have free speech isn’t because everyone’s views are right.  It is because we attempt to reach the truth through the dialectic of competing viewpoints.

Welcome to that dialectic!

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by turbguy

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

The Interstate Highway System required massive public funding (still does).

Rural Electrification required massive public funding.

The Air Traffic Control System required massive public funding.

Trips to the Moon required MASSIVE public funding.

Is the USA "bankrupt"??  With 31 trillion dollars of debt (most held by We the People), perhaps it is in the view of some.

The earth receives over 3 orders of magnitude of solar energy over the TOTAL amount of watts required by ALL of humanity for ALL it's energy requirements. The "capacity" is easily there.  And that doesn't even count geothermal sources, which, IMO, is where huge expansions of electric generation will eventually arise.

Is it gonna be cheap?  No.

Is it possible?  Yes.

Is petroleum going away?  No.

Can an argument be proposed that climate change is NOT "anthopologic"?  Certainly!

Exxon seemed to agree is was human-caused, YEARS ago. 

 

Exxon is not deemed to be an "authority" on the issue and is therefore not liable for its beliefs. If Exxon was in the business of studying climate change and advising the public, that would be different. But that is not their job, their job is to provide gasoline for your gas tank.

Further, Exxon is free to develop new arguments which challenge the CO2 theory, which is now clearly a facile and errant explanation.

You DO drive a fossil fuel right, right? And you buy gas from Exxon? Then are you complicit in the destruction of the planet? Should there be action against the customers of Exxon?

Greta and her gang have used fossil fuel forms of transportation, should they be held accountable for supporting the destruction of the planet? Let us be consistent on this nonsense.

That is the usual hysterical nonsense of the Green people.

https://oilprice.com/The-Environment/Global-Warming/Greta-Thunbergs-Not-So-Little-Carbon-Footprint.html

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Ecocharger

[notsonice + 1,255]

6 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Since when is natural gas not a fossil fuel?

You are  the idiot that stated........

How do you make steel without coal???   no mention of Natural Gas......it was your question 

 

and you got a straight answer DRI

do you still use a 1950's Funk and Wagnalls set of encyclopedias for your sources????

 

and yet you post BS when you are outed (again) as the forum fool.

 

is Natural Gas now Coal??? only an idiot would try to BS away the fact that you do not need coal to make steel

PS you can also reduce Iron Ore with Hydrogen....Cliffs Toledo Facility can use Hydrogen without modifications to reduce Nat Gas consumption by 70 percent........Steel Making is getting greener IE NO NEED FOR COAL

and your Coal is King is just utter BS 

 

Now are you going to tell us all here that Hydrogen is a fossil fuel?

Edited January 27, 2023 by notsonice

[Polyphia + 83]

1 minute ago, notsonice said:

You are  the idiot that stated........

How do you make steel without coal???   no mention of Natural Gas......it was your question 

 

and you got a straight answer DRI

do you still use a 1950's Funk and Wagnalls set of encyclopedias for your sources????

 

and yet you post BS when you are outed (again) as the forum fool.

 

is Natural Gas now Coal??? only an idiot would try to BS away 

PS you can also reduce Iron Ore with Hydrogen....Cliffs Toledo Facility can use Hydrogen without modifications to reduce Nat Gas consumption by 70 percent........Steel Making is going green and your Coal is King is just utter BS 

 

Now are you going to tell us all here that Hydrogen is a fossil fuel?

Ecocharger is the master of the moving goalposts.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

On 1/27/2023 at 7:31 AM, turbguy said:

Is it gonna be cheap?  No.

Is it possible?  Yes.

Ahh Turb great post/thought process. I once stated "Never give a engineer a open checkbook" Trying to be be overly sarcastic here

Egineering is a discipline,a very unique set of skills sets. Discipline rules their world,effective outcomes&predictability defines the profession. Just what went wrong with Green Energy??? Personal opinions perhaps? 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

2 hours ago, notsonice said:

You are  the idiot that stated........

How do you make steel without coal???   no mention of Natural Gas......it was your question 

 

and you got a straight answer DRI

do you still use a 1950's Funk and Wagnalls set of encyclopedias for your sources????

 

and yet you post BS when you are outed (again) as the forum fool.

 

is Natural Gas now Coal??? only an idiot would try to BS away the fact that you do not need coal to make steel

PS you can also reduce Iron Ore with Hydrogen....Cliffs Toledo Facility can use Hydrogen without modifications to reduce Nat Gas consumption by 70 percent........Steel Making is getting greener IE NO NEED FOR COAL

and your Coal is King is just utter BS 

 

Now are you going to tell us all here that Hydrogen is a fossil fuel?

Coal production is rapidly increasing, so that answers your guff.

No one with any knowledge of the issues surrounding the CO2 climate debate would claim that CO2 is the answer, that is pure hogwash.

Now, which type of fossil fuel vehicle is parked in your driveway, friend?

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

2 hours ago, Polyphia said:

Ecocharger is the master of the moving goalposts.

You move your own goalposts pretty well. Like that vehicle you drive.

[Ron Wagner + 710]

2 hours ago, notsonice said:

You are  the idiot that stated........

How do you make steel without coal???   no mention of Natural Gas......it was your question 

 

and you got a straight answer DRI

do you still use a 1950's Funk and Wagnalls set of encyclopedias for your sources????

 

and yet you post BS when you are outed (again) as the forum fool.

 

is Natural Gas now Coal??? only an idiot would try to BS away the fact that you do not need coal to make steel

PS you can also reduce Iron Ore with Hydrogen....Cliffs Toledo Facility can use Hydrogen without modifications to reduce Nat Gas consumption by 70 percent........Steel Making is getting greener IE NO NEED FOR COAL

and your Coal is King is just utter BS 

 

Now are you going to tell us all here that Hydrogen is a fossil fuel?

Isn't most hydrogen produced from natural gas causing a higher price than just using clean and abundant natural gas? That tis my understanding. 

[notsonice + 1,255]

36 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Coal production is rapidly increasing, so that answers your guff.

No one with any knowledge of the issues surrounding the CO2 climate debate would claim that CO2 is the answer, that is pure hogwash.

Now, which type of fossil fuel vehicle is parked in your driveway, friend?

 

You are still babbling....... tell us again that coal is the only way to make steel

Enjoy the fact.

Coal production Peaked in 2014  8,164.9 Metric tonnes

 

2022 did not exceed 2014

 coal production has been flat ever since...

All new increases in demand for Energy in the world are being met by Renewables

 

2023....2024....2025 the transition to renewables is accelerating

Now once again please tell us that the only way to make Steel is with Coal.......Must suck to be you....wrong all the time

even a broken clock is smarter than you...at least it gets the time right twice a day

 

 

Enjoy the transition to renewables, I am

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by notsonice

[notsonice + 1,255]

Did you not miss the forums' idiot claim that the only way to make steel was with Coal??

Did you not miss the point of all the new Hydrogen generators using electrolysis are being constructed around the world today???

Enjoy the renewable boom.....clean cheap hydrogen comes from renewables using electrolysis not from methane

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by notsonice

[Polyphia + 83]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

You move your own goalposts pretty well. Like that vehicle you drive.

As you are well aware (given your obsession with what car everyone on this discussion board drives, especially Jay), I drive a hybrid. I am in the process of changing from FF heating in my home to geothermal, and the next step is to move to an EV. The world's transition to renewables is taking time, as my transition to it is, as well. No moving goalposts detected here. If I were to be compensated what I am worth at my job, the transition would happen much faster for me, but that is a discussion for another time/forum.

[Ron Wagner + 710]

1 hour ago, notsonice said:

Did you not miss the forums' idiot claim that the only way to make steel was with Coal??

Did you not miss the point of all the new Hydrogen generators using electrolysis are being constructed around the world today???

Enjoy the renewable boom.....clean cheap hydrogen comes from renewables using electrolysis not from methane

 

 

I really don't think that the technology is yet in place for that. Maybe you can show a reference rather than just making claims all the time. Hydrogen is made from natural gas. 

[Ron Wagner + 710]

Here is a wake up call for all the greenies saying hydrogen is produced by green sources primarily. 

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydrogen/production-of-hydrogen.php

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,246]

3 hours ago, notsonice said:

Did you not miss the forums' idiot claim that the only way to make steel was with Coal??

Did you not miss the point of all the new Hydrogen generators using electrolysis are being constructed around the world today???

Enjoy the renewable boom.....clean cheap hydrogen comes from renewables using electrolysis not from methane

 

 

German Crude Oil Imports Rose 11% in 2022 As Crude Import Bill Doubles | OilPrice.com

Your talking out yer a** you dipsh*t!!!!

[turbguy + 1,544]

20 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ahh Turb great post/thought process. I once stated "Never give a engineer a open checkbook" Trying to be be overly sarcastic here

Egineering is a discipline,a unique set of skills sets. Discipline rules their world,effectiveoutcomes&predictability defines the profession. Just what went wrong with Green Energy??? Personal opinions perhaps? 

 

Engineering deals with designing, building, operating, and maintaining a "project".

Almost all engineering disciplines are ruled by money and time, instead of any considerations of their actions to the our earth.

THAT is the responsibility of you and I, and politicians.  The politicians have the open checkbook, which they may give to engineers.  My Wyoming legislature has done just that, by promoting and financing CCS as a solution to making the combustion of Powder River "dirt" more acceptable.  It's is difficult for me to believe how CCS will ever be economic, but legislators are not engineers.

A [slow] change in attitudes is occurring.  You may not agree with it.  It is good to have a debate.

Welcome to the dialectic!

Edited January 28, 2023 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,544]

8 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Exxon is not deemed to be an "authority" on the issue and is therefore not liable for its beliefs. If Exxon was in the business of studying climate change and advising the public, that would be different. But that is not their job, their job is to provide gasoline for your gas tank.

Further, Exxon is free to develop new arguments which challenge the CO2 theory, which is now clearly a facile and errant explanatio

Seems like they are an authority about the subject to me.

Just as the Tobacco and Asbestos industries were...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Even MORE pointed:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2805576-1982-Exxon-Memo-to-Management-About-CO2

Now, just what were Exxon's "beliefs"?

Not their own internal research.

Money.

Welcome to the dialog.

Edited January 28, 2023 by turbguy

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

4 hours ago, Polyphia said:

As you are well aware (given your obsession with what car everyone on this discussion board drives, especially Jay), I drive a hybrid. I am in the process of changing from FF heating in my home to geothermal, and the next step is to move to an EV. The world's transition to renewables is taking time, as my transition to it is, as well. No moving goalposts detected here. If I were to be compensated what I am worth at my job, the transition would happen much faster for me, but that is a discussion for another time/forum.

By the time you get transitioned to electric the EV fad will have become a curiosity of history, just another dead end byway of historical interest only.

And yes, your hybrid is a fossil fuel vehicle. 

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

5 hours ago, notsonice said:

 

You are still babbling....... tell us again that coal is the only way to make steel

Enjoy the fact.

Coal production Peaked in 2014  8,164.9 Metric tonnes

 

2022 did not exceed 2014

 coal production has been flat ever since...

All new increases in demand for Energy in the world are being met by Renewables

 

2023....2024....2025 the transition to renewables is accelerating

Now once again please tell us that the only way to make Steel is with Coal.......Must suck to be you....wrong all the time

even a broken clock is smarter than you...at least it gets the time right twice a day

 

 

Enjoy the transition to renewables, I am

 

In other words, you are still driving a fossil fuel vehicle, in spite of the standard drivel you give us about saving the planet.

Just what I expected, the usual loony liberal logic.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

Seems like they are an authority about the subject to me.

Just as the Tobacco and Asbestos industries were...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Even MORE pointed:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2805576-1982-Exxon-Memo-to-Management-About-CO2

Now, just what were Exxon's "beliefs"?

Not their own internal research.

Money.

Welcome to the dialog.

If their own internal information was based on false claims about climate change, they are not liable for failing to spread false news. You have strange ideas about justice.

[Polyphia + 83]

8 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

By the time you get transitioned to electric the EV fad will have become a curiosity of history, just another dead end byway of historical interest only.

And yes, your hybrid is a fossil fuel vehicle. 

We were talking about moving goalposts--try to stay on topic.

[turbguy + 1,544]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

If their own internal information was based on false claims about climate change, they are not liable for failing to spread false news. You have strange ideas about justice.

"False claims"?

How about surprisingly accurate RESULTS?

Tobacco and cancer?

Asbestos and cancer?

Fossil fuels and CO₂?

Humanity has strange ideas about humanity.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by turbguy

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,246]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:34 PM, Ron Wagner said:

Isn't most hydrogen produced from natural gas causing a higher price than just using clean and abundant natural gas? That tis my understanding. 

Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification: Synthesis gas—a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a small amount of carbon dioxide—is created by reacting natural gas with high-temperature steam. The carbon monoxide is reacted with water to produce additional hydrogen. This method is the cheapest, most efficient, and most common. Natural gas reforming using steam accounts for the majority of hydrogen produced in the United States annually.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:42 PM, notsonice said:

Did you not miss the forums' idiot claim that the only way to make steel was with Coal??

Did you not miss the point of all the new Hydrogen generators using electrolysis are being constructed around the world today???

Enjoy the renewable boom.....clean cheap hydrogen comes from renewables using electrolysis not from methane

 

 

You geniuses were saying that coking coal is not a source of heat? You were clearly confused and I gave you the education you were asking for.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

20 hours ago, turbguy said:

"False claims"?

How about surprisingly accurate RESULTS?

Tobacco and cancer?

Asbestos and cancer?

Fossil fuels and CO₂?

Humanity has strange ideas about humanity.

 

Again, you are confused about the actual science, refer to P. 324 and following where we discussed this in a definitive way. The CO2 theory is now thoroughly debunked.

You are spouting the usual nonsense.

Like coking coal not being used for heating....I had to educate you on that point.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

On 1/27/2023 at 7:31 AM, turbguy said:

The Interstate Highway System required massive public funding (still does).

Indeed Turb, that funding comes from fossil fuels. Turb do you have any concept of how money US governing bodies receive from Fossil Fuel Taxation...LMAO take a WAG.