GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

4 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

"Speculation bubbles" happen for a reason....like hot demand for a product.

Speculation bubbles create fake demand that far exceeds real demand.

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

3 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Speculation bubbles create fake demand that far exceeds real demand.

A bubble gets started by a deficit in product with respect to demand.

"At the same time, coal use for electricity in China is rising. China’s coal-fired power generation increased last year as growing electricity demand outpaced the installations of new clean power capacity, making China the only G-20 country with rising coal generation, climate and energy think tank Ember said in its Global Electricity Review 2021 earlier this year. "

Edited June 21, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

A bubble gets started by a deficit in product with respect to demand.

Then it creates an increase in demand that exceeds real demand. Can I interest you in a tulip? Its a breed called the downvote.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Then it creates an increase in demand that exceeds real demand. Can I interest you in a tulip?

You don't get a bubble without real excess demand.  Think about it.

Demand is expected to continue growing for both oil and coal going forward. Prices for both commodities will rise. Coal especially will be in demand if EV's increase in China.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Will-Oil-Hit-100-This-Year.html

"Predictions of $100 oil seem to be more common for the coming years, rather than this year, due to an expected supply deficit, especially around 2025, amid low investments in new supply and still growing global oil demand. "

Next presidential election year in 2024 will be plagued with high oil and gasoline prices, especially if green taxes are levied on gasoline. Biden & Co. should beware the burdens placed on their base supporters.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Just now, Ecocharger said:

You don't get a bubble without real excess demand.  Think about it.

Demand is expected to continue growing for both oil and coal going forward. Prices for both commodities will rise. Coal especially will be in demand if EV's increase in China.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Will-Oil-Hit-100-This-Year.html

"Predictions of $100 oil seem to be more common for the coming years, rather than this year, due to an expected supply deficit, especially around 2025, amid low investments in new supply and still growing global oil demand. "

Next presidential election year in 2024 will be plagued with high oil and gasoline prices, especially if green taxes are levied on gasoline. Biden & Co. should beware the burdens placed on their base supporters.

A downvote for repeating yourself. A little increased demand leads to a run on the market or bubble causing excess unsustainable demand to be created. What about that can't you understand?

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

This is no bubble....this is the real thing.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/BofA-Oil-Prices-Could-Hit-100-In-2022.html

"“We believe that the robust global oil demand recovery will outpace supply growth over the next 18 months, further draining inventories and setting the stage for higher oil prices,” analysts at BofA wrote in the note, in which they significantly raised their price forecasts for average Brent Crude prices next  year."

Edited June 21, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, Ecocharger said:

This is no bubble....this is the real thing.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/BofA-Oil-Prices-Could-Hit-100-In-2022.html

We are discussing coal not oil. 

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

4 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

We are discussing coal not oil. 

We already discussed coal...you lost the argument. Of course, there are fluctuations in commodity prices, they bounce around. But I doubt that is what we are seeing in China, those prices will remain robust for coal, for reasons we already discussed. That's another loss for you, if you are keeping score.

And oil prices will become even more robust. Another point for this side, if you want to keep score.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Just now, Ecocharger said:

We already discussed coal...you lost the argument. Of course, there are fluctuations in commodity prices, they bounce around. But I doubt that is what we are seeing in China, those prices will remain robust for coal, for reasons we already discussed. That's another loss for you, if you are keeping score.

HaHa, you are such a fool.  

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

HaHa, you are such a fool.  

That is your idea of an intelligent comment?  I am disappointed, Jay. Not surprised, but disappointed.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, Ecocharger said:

That is your idea of an intelligent comment?  I am disappointed, Jay. Not surprised, but disappointed.

It is all your deceleration that the topic had changed and that I had lost deserved.

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

7 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It is all your deceleration that the topic had changed and that I had lost deserved.

I thought that you were intent on scoring points. Was I wrong?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

I thought that you were intent on scoring points. Was I wrong?

Changing the topic mid discussion because you are losing, as you did, constitutes a loss of points.

The Chinese authorities will “check abnormal trading and speculation, as well as crack down on hoarding and driving up prices,” the statement reads.

The surging price of coal is affecting the downstream sector and the real economy, according to the Chinese state planning body. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/China-Looks-To-Crack-Down-On-Speculation-As-Coal-Prices-Break-Records.html

Edited June 21, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Changing the topic mid discussion because you are losing, as you did, constitutes a loss of points.

The Chinese authorities will “check abnormal trading and speculation, as well as crack down on hoarding and driving up prices,” the statement reads.

The surging price of coal is affecting the downstream sector and the real economy, according to the Chinese state planning body. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/China-Looks-To-Crack-Down-On-Speculation-As-Coal-Prices-Break-Records.html

Yes, the Chinese are ramping up coal usage to produce electricity...nothing new there. I have been making that point for some time.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

21 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Yes, the Chinese are ramping up coal usage to produce electricity...nothing new there. I have been making that point for some time.

That isn't what the quote says. Note the words "abnormal" and "hoarding".

Edited June 21, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

24 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

That isn't what the quote says. Note the words "abnormal" and "hoarding".

Jay, look at the big picture for once. You seem to focus on the short-term marginal events.

A big waste of space.

"At the same time, coal use for electricity in China is rising. China’s coal-fired power generation increased last year as growing electricity demand outpaced the installations of new clean power capacity, making China the only G-20 country with rising coal generation, climate and energy think tank Ember said in its Global Electricity Review 2021 earlier this year. "

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Jay, look at the big picture for once. You seem to focus on the short-term marginal events.

A big waste of space.

"At the same time, coal use for electricity in China is rising. China’s coal-fired power generation increased last year as growing electricity demand outpaced the installations of new clean power capacity, making China the only G-20 country with rising coal generation, climate and energy think tank Ember said in its Global Electricity Review 2021 earlier this year. "

 

I said their coal demand was rising, just not as much as you think. 

The HOTness you keep talking about is caused by the speculation bubble which was in large part caused by their stopping Australian imports.

At the beginning of this repartee you said:

"Speculation bubbles" happen for a reason....like hot demand for a product.

It isn't only a matter of increased demand, the exact same condition can arise from a decrease in supply.

In this case it was some increase in demand but a huge decrease in supply of coal from Australia that has caused the speculation and hoarding. Hoarding is fake demand.

In the real economy coal isn't HOT, it is warm.

 

While the immediate trend, especially in Asia, is an uptick in coal consumption, the more long-term trend is ultimately away from coal. “More China-invested overseas coal-fired power capacity was canceled than commissioned since 2017’” a recent Reuters report stated, “highlighting the obstacles facing the industry as countries work to reduce carbon emissions.”

Indeed, the consensus is that despite all of the back-and-forths over coal, the sector is unequivocally in terminal decline. While this will inevitably create hardship for the huge numbers of workers employed by the worldwide coal industry, it’s ultimately a ray of hope for the global community at a time when it is sorely needed. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Coal/Is-China-Finally-Moving-Away-From-Coal.html

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

From the same article, Jay.

"Yale Environment 360 predicted China’s return to coal and warned that the country’s ambitious overseas development plans will directly imperil global climate initiatives. “China’s Belt and Road Initiative is a colossal infrastructure plan that could transform the economies of nations around the world,” the article stated. “But with its focus on coal-fired power plants, the effort could obliterate any chance of reducing emissions and tip the world into catastrophic climate change.” 

Watch for coal production to ramp up going forward.

[Boat + 1,324]

17 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

haha I know you didnt I was referring to Boat

Its the old saying "people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones", ie dont take the piss out of someone if youve got your facts wrong

Your just playing games with statistics. We will see in the future but as of now peak coal has already happened. If a commodity drops in consumption and then regains a portion of the market it is false reporting to claim the market for that commodity to be hot, or growing.
Like solar for example. Statisticaly you could claim huge growth every year while solar is still a very small part of the energy mix. While solar is growing much faster than coal which at best is treading water, I would not describe solar as hot on a global scale. A better description is steady growth with a promising future.

Ocean wave tech has huge growth but has no scale or impact. Y’all just live in the world of Trumpisms that don’t cut it in the real world. 
Why? Who knows. The real story of each commodity is interesting and is fun to follow. It’s ok to be a fan or opponent of any commodity. But the accurate reporting in every case is more beneficial than silly hype, good or bad.

[Boat + 1,324]

4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

From the same article, Jay.

"Yale Environment 360 predicted China’s return to coal and warned that the country’s ambitious overseas development plans will directly imperil global climate initiatives. “China’s Belt and Road Initiative is a colossal infrastructure plan that could transform the economies of nations around the world,” the article stated. “But with its focus on coal-fired power plants, the effort could obliterate any chance of reducing emissions and tip the world into catastrophic climate change.” 

Watch for coal production to ramp up going forward.

Of course we will watch coal consumption like we watch all forms of energy. But if you like growth, you’ll be disappointed in coal. Nat gas, wind and solar will all grow much faster. 

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

Wind and solar have run into a roadblock...the environmentalists, who protest against the loss of habitat for endangered species. This will derail the plans of Biden &Co. for the energy transition.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/solar-powers-land-grab-hits-a-snag-environmentalists-11622816381

"Unlike past fights between polluting industries and environmentalists, this one pits people who say they want more renewable power against companies that want to generate it. It threatens to significantly slow efforts by the Biden administration and businesses to fight climate change by reducing America’s carbon emissions. “An energy system based on renewables is still an industrial-scale system, with large generation and transmission projects that people don’t necessarily want in their neighborhoods,” said Samantha Gross, director of the Energy Security and Climate Initiative at the nonpartisan Brookings Institution."

Edited June 22, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

58 minutes ago, Boat said:

Your just playing games with statistics. We will see in the future but as of now peak coal has already happened. If a commodity drops in consumption and then regains a portion of the market it is false reporting to claim the market for that commodity to be hot, or growing.
Like solar for example. Statisticaly you could claim huge growth every year while solar is still a very small part of the energy mix. While solar is growing much faster than coal which at best is treading water, I would not describe solar as hot on a global scale. A better description is steady growth with a promising future.

Ocean wave tech has huge growth but has no scale or impact. Y’all just live in the world of Trumpisms that don’t cut it in the real world. 
Why? Who knows. The real story of each commodity is interesting and is fun to follow. It’s ok to be a fan or opponent of any commodity. But the accurate reporting in every case is more beneficial than silly hype, good or bad.

The "heat" in the "hot" for the coal market is generated by China and India. But that is a big chunk of demand.

[Ecocharger + 1,475]

The shale patch looks like not responding, higher oil prices are not stimulating production.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Why-US-Shale-Wont-Derail-The-Oil-Rally.html

"Last week, OPEC+ was reportedly told by major international forecasters—including the Energy Information Administration (EIA), the International Energy Agency (IEA), Wood Mackenzie, IHS, Argus Media, Energy Intelligence, and Energy Aspects—that U.S. crude oil production would grow by just 200,000 barrels per day (bpd) this year, OPEC sources told Reuters at the end of meetings of OPEC’s economic and technical think-tank, the Economic Commission Board. "

Edited June 22, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

3 hours ago, Boat said:

Your just playing games with statistics. We will see in the future but as of now peak coal has already happened. If a commodity drops in consumption and then regains a portion of the market it is false reporting to claim the market for that commodity to be hot, or growing.
Like solar for example. Statisticaly you could claim huge growth every year while solar is still a very small part of the energy mix. While solar is growing much faster than coal which at best is treading water, I would not describe solar as hot on a global scale. A better description is steady growth with a promising future.

Ocean wave tech has huge growth but has no scale or impact. Y’all just live in the world of Trumpisms that don’t cut it in the real world. 
Why? Who knows. The real story of each commodity is interesting and is fun to follow. It’s ok to be a fan or opponent of any commodity. But the accurate reporting in every case is more beneficial than silly hype, good or bad.

Nope I'll repost so you can check the data again as you must have missed it first time around. Jay didnt and accepted that coal production is rising although perhaps not at the "hot" rate Ecocharger claimed, by the way I never claimed it was "hot"!

https://www.globaldata.com/global-coal-production-expected-rise-3-5-2021-says-globaldata/

Its not my data and I'm not "playing games with statistics" as you claim, if you take 2 seconds to look at it you will see that coal production is indeed growing and will likely grow to the highest production output the world has ever seen by 2025.

I'm not against renewables and I dont particularly like coal as it is a dirty form of energy IMO but the data is the data. As I said to Jay you cant warrant the future and any prediction is just a best guess so you could argue that this data isnt realistic for any number of reasons going forward, but you cant argue with data that has happened.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

3 hours ago, Boat said:

Ocean wave tech has huge growth but has no scale or impact. Y’all just live in the world of Trumpisms that don’t cut it in the real world. 

I'm not American so I couldn't give a toss about Trump, Biden or any other US politician or party frankly.

Ocean wave tech is terrible and cant compete with wind or solar so the funding isnt there. Many tidal bay projects are extremely costly to build and that massive financial outlay puts investors off. Wave tech companies also struggle to get any of their projects from the FEED stage to actual construction phase. I would be genuinely interested if you could show me some examples of where wave tech makes up a significant portion of any countries electricity supply.