GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Polyphia + 83]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

However, solar models predict the start of  along cooling trend at about 2020, which looks to be accurate.

Nope.

[Polyphia + 83]

https://time.com/6294637/june-july-record-extreme-heat/

"June’s 61.79 degrees (16.55 degrees Celsius) global average was 1.89 degrees (1.05 degrees Celsius) above the 20th Century average, the first time globally a summer month was more than a degree Celsius hotter than normal, according to NOAA. Other weather monitoring systems, such as NASA, Berkeley Earth and Europe’s Copernicus, had already called last month the hottest June on record, but NOAA is the gold standard for record-keeping with data going back 174 years to 1850.

The first half of 2023 has been the third hottest January through June on record, behind 2016 and 2020, according to NOAA.

NOAA says there’s a 20% chance that 2023 will be the hottest year on record, with next year more likely, but the chance of a record is growing and outside scientists such as Brown University’s Kim Cobb are predicting a “photo finish” with 2016 and 2020 for the hottest year on record. Berkeley Earth’s Robert Rohde said his group figures there’s an 80% chance that 2023 will end up the hottest year on record."

 

[notsonice + 1,266]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Here is the problem, a ban by fiat on fossil fuel vehicles, the destruction of the poor and middle class personal transportation. Total waste of public funds if Biden & Co. actually proceed according to plan.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Report-Govts-Should-Fold-Bad-Bet-On-EVs.html

"Manhattan institute: if ICE bans are implemented, it could lead to a misallocation of capital in the “world’s $4 trillion personal mobility industry” and constraints on freedom.

One of the most important premises of the EV revolution is built on is that EVs will be, or already are, cheaper than ICE vehicles.

The EPA's strict tailpipe emission rules essentially force Big Auto to produce mostly EVs by 2032."

Here is the problem, a ban by fiat on fossil fuel vehicles, the destruction of the poor and middle class personal transportation.????
more of your BS fear mongering.....

have ICE vehicles been banned? nope they just will be replaced over time

you still can buy a horse and buggy........still popular is some parts of the US

 

face it EV sales are booming and your clunkers are on the way out.......slowly but surely

 

and thanks for the EV subsidies......the poor and middle class appreciate them

 

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

The futile attempt by European governments to buffer their citizens from high energy prices has resulted in a gigantic failure. Now the devastating impact of the misguided fight against CO2 is coming home to roost, as the standard of living of millions of people comes under relentless destruction.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Mounting-Deficits-Force-Euro-Minsters-To-Cut-Energy-Support-Measures.html

"Euro zone finance ministers have decided to gradually withdraw energy support measures in 2023 and 2024 and use the savings to cut government deficits.

This move aligns with the recommendations of the European Fiscal Board, which suggested tighter fiscal policy to help the European Central Bank fight inflation and prevent interest rates from rising too high.

Despite the potential impact on energy prices, ministers believe determined, gradual, and realistic fiscal consolidation is necessary to strengthen sustainability and rebuild fiscal buffers, while structural reforms are deemed essential."

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

21 hours ago, Polyphia said:

https://time.com/6294637/june-july-record-extreme-heat/

"June’s 61.79 degrees (16.55 degrees Celsius) global average was 1.89 degrees (1.05 degrees Celsius) above the 20th Century average, the first time globally a summer month was more than a degree Celsius hotter than normal, according to NOAA. Other weather monitoring systems, such as NASA, Berkeley Earth and Europe’s Copernicus, had already called last month the hottest June on record, but NOAA is the gold standard for record-keeping with data going back 174 years to 1850.

The first half of 2023 has been the third hottest January through June on record, behind 2016 and 2020, according to NOAA.

NOAA says there’s a 20% chance that 2023 will be the hottest year on record, with next year more likely, but the chance of a record is growing and outside scientists such as Brown University’s Kim Cobb are predicting a “photo finish” with 2016 and 2020 for the hottest year on record. Berkeley Earth’s Robert Rohde said his group figures there’s an 80% chance that 2023 will end up the hottest year on record."

 

We will see how the charts look with a full year data. There is nothing in your blurbs to suggest that CO2 is related to these changes. We will probably see more of the same pattern of temperature change leading CO2 change, as has always been the case.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

21 hours ago, Polyphia said:

Nope.

The data is already in, it happened.

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

22 hours ago, Polyphia said:

https://time.com/6294637/june-july-record-extreme-heat/

"June’s 61.79 degrees (16.55 degrees Celsius) global average was 1.89 degrees (1.05 degrees Celsius) above the 20th Century average, the first time globally a summer month was more than a degree Celsius hotter than normal, according to NOAA. Other weather monitoring systems, such as NASA, Berkeley Earth and Europe’s Copernicus, had already called last month the hottest June on record, but NOAA is the gold standard for record-keeping with data going back 174 years to 1850.

The first half of 2023 has been the third hottest January through June on record, behind 2016 and 2020, according to NOAA.

NOAA says there’s a 20% chance that 2023 will be the hottest year on record, with next year more likely, but the chance of a record is growing and outside scientists such as Brown University’s Kim Cobb are predicting a “photo finish” with 2016 and 2020 for the hottest year on record. Berkeley Earth’s Robert Rohde said his group figures there’s an 80% chance that 2023 will end up the hottest year on record."

 

Here is an interesting paper on climate sensitivity to CO2 levels. Interesting results which are consistent with the already observed lag between temperature change and CO2 change. Other work on the importance of particulate levels in the atmosphere also support this study.

http://www.ijaos.org/article/298/10.11648.j.ijaos.20210502.12

 "From this data it is concluded that H2O is responsible for 29.4K of the 33K warming, with CO₂ contributing 3.3K and CH₄ and N₂O combined just 0.3K. Climate sensitivity to future increases in CO₂ concentration is calculated to be 0.50K, including the positive feedback effects of H₂O, while climate sensitivities to CH₄ and N₂O are almost undetectable at 0.06K and 0.08K respectively. This result strongly suggests that increasing levels of CO₂ will not lead to significant changes in earth temperature and that increases in CH₄ and N₂O will have very little discernable impact."

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 1,013]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Here is an interesting paper on climate sensitivity to CO2 levels. Interesting results which are consistent with the already observed lag between temperature change and CO2 change. Other work on the importance of particulate levels in the atmosphere also support this study.

http://www.ijaos.org/article/298/10.11648.j.ijaos.20210502.12

 "From this data it is concluded that H2O is responsible for 29.4K of the 33K warming, with CO₂ contributing 3.3K and CH₄ and N₂O combined just 0.3K. Climate sensitivity to future increases in CO₂ concentration is calculated to be 0.50K, including the positive feedback effects of H₂O, while climate sensitivities to CH₄ and N₂O are almost undetectable at 0.06K and 0.08K respectively. This result strongly suggests that increasing levels of CO₂ will not lead to significant changes in earth temperature and that increases in CH₄ and N₂O will have very little discernable impact."

That paper contradicts your regular position....

"It has long been accepted that the “greenhouse effect”, where the atmosphere readily transmits short wavelength incoming solar radiation but selectively absorbs long wavelength outgoing radiation emitted by the earth, is responsible for warming the earth from the 255K effective earth temperature, without atmospheric warming, to the current average temperature of 288K."

PS burning fossil fuels also releases H2O vapour and warmer air holds more water.

[Polyphia + 83]

10 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The data is already in, it happened.

Still nope.

[Polyphia + 83]

10 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

We will see how the charts look with a full year data. There is nothing in your blurbs to suggest that CO2 is related to these changes. We will probably see more of the same pattern of temperature change leading CO2 change, as has always been the case.

I think the only question about the temperature data this year is whether it will be the hottest year on record or just one of the hottest on record (with many predicting next year will be the hottest on record).

The blurbs about CO2 being related to temperature are all over this forum and others. I merely was posted an article about temperature because you claim that it is cooling, and it isn't.

CO2 both leads and lags temperature changes, as so many have noted. It is a complicated feedback system with many components.

[Polyphia + 83]

An interesting article about the problems associated with tire pollutants and how it is a bigger problem for EVs.

https://www.dw.com/en/electric-vehicle-tires-a-lesser-known-pollution-headache/a-66189707

One excerpt:

"Tire particulate pollution has two primary negative impacts on environmental health. The particulate itself washes into waterways and has been found to be a significant source of oceanic microplastics. Also, tires contain volatile organic compounds (VOCs), which are hazardous to human health, and react in the atmosphere to create smog.

A particularly concerning chemical in tires is 6PPD, which is used to prevent the rubber from cracking or breaking down. 6PPD is also water-soluble, so it is carried off of roads by rain and washed into rivers and oceans where it has been linked to mass salmon and trout die-offs. Further studies found that 6PPD is absorbed by edible plants like lettuce and that the compound can be found in human urine."

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

16 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

That paper contradicts your regular position....

"It has long been accepted that the “greenhouse effect”, where the atmosphere readily transmits short wavelength incoming solar radiation but selectively absorbs long wavelength outgoing radiation emitted by the earth, is responsible for warming the earth from the 255K effective earth temperature, without atmospheric warming, to the current average temperature of 288K."

PS burning fossil fuels also releases H2O vapour and warmer air holds more water.

No, you should read the paper. "It has long been held" does not indicate agreement, just indicates the belief of many in the field.

This paper shows how weak the effect of CO2 is as a greenhouse gas, no surprise to those of us who have looked at the data relating CO2 and temperature change.

Other work on the importance of particulate levels in the atmosphere also support this study.

http://www.ijaos.org/article/298/10.11648.j.ijaos.20210502.12

 "From this data it is concluded that H2O is responsible for 29.4K of the 33K warming, with CO₂ contributing 3.3K and CH₄ and N₂O combined just 0.3K. Climate sensitivity to future increases in CO₂ concentration is calculated to be 0.50K, including the positive feedback effects of H₂O, while climate sensitivities to CH₄ and N₂O are almost undetectable at 0.06K and 0.08K respectively. This result strongly suggests that increasing levels of CO₂ will not lead to significant changes in earth temperature and that increases in CH₄ and N₂O will have very little discernable impact."

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

1 hour ago, Polyphia said:

An interesting article about the problems associated with tire pollutants and how it is a bigger problem for EVs.

https://www.dw.com/en/electric-vehicle-tires-a-lesser-known-pollution-headache/a-66189707

One excerpt:

"Tire particulate pollution has two primary negative impacts on environmental health. The particulate itself washes into waterways and has been found to be a significant source of oceanic microplastics. Also, tires contain volatile organic compounds (VOCs), which are hazardous to human health, and react in the atmosphere to create smog.

A particularly concerning chemical in tires is 6PPD, which is used to prevent the rubber from cracking or breaking down. 6PPD is also water-soluble, so it is carried off of roads by rain and washed into rivers and oceans where it has been linked to mass salmon and trout die-offs. Further studies found that 6PPD is absorbed by edible plants like lettuce and that the compound can be found in human urine."

No problem, Biden & Co. will pass a law banning rubber and we will go back to wooden or stone wheels. Get those old Flintstones diagrams out, those guys were ahead of the curve.

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

10 hours ago, Polyphia said:

I think the only question about the temperature data this year is whether it will be the hottest year on record or just one of the hottest on record (with many predicting next year will be the hottest on record).

The blurbs about CO2 being related to temperature are all over this forum and others. I merely was posted an article about temperature because you claim that it is cooling, and it isn't.

CO2 both leads and lags temperature changes, as so many have noted. It is a complicated feedback system with many components.

Historical series have shown a consistent lagging of CO2 to temperature change, and even one such series disproves the canard about CO2 causing temperature change. The series which contra-indicate this relationship use data series which have been "adjusted", so I am not convinced by those efforts.

[turbguy + 1,556]

There is no such "thing" as clean coal.

The sanctity of private property and capital accumulation is so built into the American psyche, that it’s considered seditious for anyone to demand attentiveness to the working classes.

It will interfere with the basic business model.

https://wyofile.com/coal-ceos-are-running-out-of-excuses/?utm_source=WyoFile&utm_campaign=bb6a783f6c-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_07_18_11_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_611470c970-a953500a7f-[LIST_EMAIL_ID]

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by turbguy

[Polyphia + 83]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Historical series have shown a consistent lagging of CO2 to temperature change, and even one such series disproves the canard about CO2 causing temperature change. The series which contra-indicate this relationship use data series which have been "adjusted", so I am not convinced by those efforts.

You aren't paying attention to the whole story, but I know there isn't anything that could convince you otherwise. 

[bloodman33 + 22]

The oil industries intentional lies easily delayed the world responding to climate change by 20 years.  They need to be held accountable and their profits taken, after I sell my stocks of course   Reparations now.  Give Texas back to Mexico. Donate to AOC my queen!

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

9 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No problem, Biden & Co. will pass a law banning rubber and we will go back to wooden or stone wheels. Get those old Flintstones diagrams out, those guys were ahead of the curve.

Eco youre advocating against buying an ICE vehicle! Never would have believed it 🤣

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

10 hours ago, Polyphia said:

An interesting article about the problems associated with tire pollutants and how it is a bigger problem for EVs.

https://www.dw.com/en/electric-vehicle-tires-a-lesser-known-pollution-headache/a-66189707

One excerpt:

"Tire particulate pollution has two primary negative impacts on environmental health. The particulate itself washes into waterways and has been found to be a significant source of oceanic microplastics. Also, tires contain volatile organic compounds (VOCs), which are hazardous to human health, and react in the atmosphere to create smog.

A particularly concerning chemical in tires is 6PPD, which is used to prevent the rubber from cracking or breaking down. 6PPD is also water-soluble, so it is carried off of roads by rain and washed into rivers and oceans where it has been linked to mass salmon and trout die-offs. Further studies found that 6PPD is absorbed by edible plants like lettuce and that the compound can be found in human urine."

Myth Busted: Electric Vehicles Particulate Pollution Higher Than ICE Vehicles

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/myth-busted-electric-vehicles-particulate-pollution-higher-than-ice-vehicles-184487.html

This sort of debunks the claim that EV's are more pollutive due to their brake wear being up to 4 times less than an ICE vehicle.

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

15 hours ago, Polyphia said:

You aren't paying attention to the whole story, but I know there isn't anything that could convince you otherwise. 

The studies which use adjusted data are not convincing. Anyone who needs to alter the data to fit their conclusions is not pursuing genuine science.

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

11 hours ago, bloodman33 said:

The oil industries intentional lies easily delayed the world responding to climate change by 20 years.  They need to be held accountable and their profits taken, after I sell my stocks of course   Reparations now.  Give Texas back to Mexico. Donate to AOC my queen!

Sorry, the greenhouse effect of CO2 is insignificant to global warming/cooling. End of story.

http://www.ijaos.org/article/298/10.11648.j.ijaos.20210502.12

 "From this data it is concluded that H2O is responsible for 29.4K of the 33K warming, with CO₂ contributing 3.3K and CH₄ and N₂O combined just 0.3K. Climate sensitivity to future increases in CO₂ concentration is calculated to be 0.50K, including the positive feedback effects of H₂O, while climate sensitivities to CH₄ and N₂O are almost undetectable at 0.06K and 0.08K respectively. This result strongly suggests that increasing levels of CO₂ will not lead to significant changes in earth temperature and that increases in CH₄ and N₂O will have very little discernable impact."

[Ecocharger + 1,486]

7 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Myth Busted: Electric Vehicles Particulate Pollution Higher Than ICE Vehicles

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/myth-busted-electric-vehicles-particulate-pollution-higher-than-ice-vehicles-184487.html

This sort of debunks the claim that EV's are more pollutive due to their brake wear being up to 4 times less than an ICE vehicle.

Tires are tires. I expect that tire wear could be greater for EVs due to greater weight.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Tires are tires. I expect that tire wear could be greater for EVs due to greater weight.

Yep thats true!

[Polyphia + 83]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The studies which use adjusted data are not convincing. Anyone who needs to alter the data to fit their conclusions is not pursuing genuine science.

You aren't paying attention to the whole story, but I know there isn't anything that could convince you otherwise. 

[Polyphia + 83]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Myth Busted: Electric Vehicles Particulate Pollution Higher Than ICE Vehicles

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/myth-busted-electric-vehicles-particulate-pollution-higher-than-ice-vehicles-184487.html

This sort of debunks the claim that EV's are more pollutive due to their brake wear being up to 4 times less than an ICE vehicle.

Just to be clear, I didn't post the link to the article to indicate that EVs cause more pollution overall. It was just that tires are an interesting component to consider. In the article it was stated that some tire companies formulate tires specifically for EVs, and others have been using new formulations so that both EV and ICE vehicles perform better. What I wonder is what are the new tire formulations, and do the ones manufactured just for EVs cause more/less/the same amount of pollutants as other tires? Data (and logic) indicate that per mile EVs will shed more tire due to their weight. It will be interesting to see how much this changes as battery improvements are made (e.g., solid state batteries).