GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Jay, hybrids are fossil fuel cars by definition.

Who would want to buy a used EV? Count me out of that group.

None of this matters if you cannot get auto insurance for EVs, and now the insurance companies are backing out of the EV market....that not only puts the brakes on EV sales, it puts a brick wall in front of the EVs currently in use. That is a dead end market.

Are you mad?

Lets hypothetically say that insurance for an EV costs $200 a year more, you'll save that in 2 months fuel costs ffs.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Jay, hybrids are fossil fuel cars by definition.

NO, NO, NO!

A hybrid by definition is both an EV and ICE as it has both fuel types and drive systems.

What Jay is correctly saying is that hybrids serve the vast majority of journeys ie commutes short trips to the mall etc

How many long journeys does the average US citizen make per month? answer not very many as the average for a driver per day is 29 miles.

https://www.bts.gov/statistical-products/surveys/national-household-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts

This means the vast majority of hybrids will just use the battery for their journeys, thats a fact and I am 1 of those people who can testament to it as i have one.

Hybrids IMHO will hurt the US oil consumption far more than BEV's long term for the reason above, it also negates range anxiety.

 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

If a car has a gasoline engine, it qualifies as a fossil fuel car. No intelligence required to see that.

Using your amazing simplistic terminology, by your own methods of definition if a car has a battery it is an EV!

If it has both then its both depending on which fuel is being used at the time.

For your info when your hybrid is using FF it is charging the battery (if flat) by regenerative breaking and will then automatically kick in the battery when you pull away at junctions or accelerate which massively increases your mpg. So really youre never actually NOT using the battery on any journey of any distance.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

And, no, EVs have no future with insurance companies now bailing out on EV coverage.

Put your details in this comparison site (there are dozens and dozens more if you need them)

https://www.comparethemarket.com/ps/car-insurance/savings/45/?AFFCLIE=HR61&SRC=HR61&cmpid=PC-_-BNG-_-PC-_-GEN-_-SGmaUgIHruumYCU&&&&&gclid=a90a7e6935c71b3a089c1b3dbf71bdfb&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=a90a7e6935c71b3a089c1b3dbf71bdfb

Pretend you have a Tesla model 3 and see if you can get insurance in the UK

Put you live in Crawley London (average place to live) and have a drive but no garage which I think is fair for the premium they will quote (cheaper if you have a garage, more expensive if you park in the road).

You will find the price will be about the same as any competing ICE car of its type to the Tesla 3

That hopefully puts your lies to bed that you cant get insurance.

If you cant be bothered to do the exercise to disprove your statement then I will take that as you admit you're wrong.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

10 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

And yet this has been explained to you already several times which you just cant fathom. For your info it will happen again in March and then again next September!

This really isnt rocket science to understand.

Rob, you really are confused. You have your months mixed up.

Here is your post about the September number, remember?

According to you, September was the month with the blip.

Now you are claiming that October is the month with the blip? Remember, EV sales lost fully 1% of market share in October. But you claimed that September was the month with the yearly blip drop in market share. Now you are saying that October is the month with the blip loss of market share?

According to you, EVs are supposed to GAIN market share in October. Read your own material here.

"Note that, in the UK, March and September are new registration plate months, which accounts for the twice-yearly peaks in electric car sales and, historically, a drop in market share in these periods.

So youve not done your research old pal, if you had you would know that what you keep posting again and again is normal in the UK for March and September only!!! The other 10 months EV's gain market share so your little claim is that for 1/6th of the year ICE fractionally gains market share."

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Using your amazing simplistic terminology, by your own methods of definition if a car has a battery it is an EV!

If it has both then its both depending on which fuel is being used at the time.

For your info when your hybrid is using FF it is charging the battery (if flat) by regenerative breaking and will then automatically kick in the battery when you pull away at junctions or accelerate which massively increases your mpg. So really youre never actually NOT using the battery on any journey of any distance.

No, Rob, you have taken off into fantasy again. If a car has a gasoline engine which can run the vehicle, then it is a fossil fuel car. A typical car battery cannot propel a vehicle, so your comparison is off into the wild blue again.

If the battery charges from a functioning gasoline engine, that is a fossil fuel transportation source.

But I guess I cannot expect any real analysis from a Greenie.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Put your details in this comparison site (there are dozens and dozens more if you need them)

https://www.comparethemarket.com/ps/car-insurance/savings/45/?AFFCLIE=HR61&SRC=HR61&cmpid=PC-_-BNG-_-PC-_-GEN-_-SGmaUgIHruumYCU&&&&&gclid=a90a7e6935c71b3a089c1b3dbf71bdfb&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=a90a7e6935c71b3a089c1b3dbf71bdfb

Pretend you have a Tesla model 3 and see if you can get insurance in the UK

Put you live in Crawley London (average place to live) and have a drive but no garage which I think is fair for the premium they will quote (cheaper if you have a garage, more expensive if you park in the road).

You will find the price will be about the same as any competing ICE car of its type to the Tesla 3

That hopefully puts your lies to bed that you cant get insurance.

If you cant be bothered to do the exercise to disprove your statement then I will take that as you admit you're wrong.

No, Rob, the insurance rates have taken off for EVs, just read the material I gave you above. I do not live in Britain so I will not be able to do your exercise, perhaps you can do it from where you live.

I think that those online quotes for insurance are not legally binding on the insurance company, they will want to go over more details before clinching a deal with you. And right now the EV insurance rates are in take-off mode.

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

10 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Are you mad?

Lets hypothetically say that insurance for an EV costs $200 a year more, you'll save that in 2 months fuel costs ffs.

Here are the actual costs, Rob. Rates are skyrocketing for EVs and some companies will not insure EVs at all.

EV sales in UK are now crippled by a huge increase in EV insurance coverage premiums.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2023/10/10/insurance-costs-could-cripple-european-electric-car-sales/?sh=56faff2ae68d

"The Motor Easy insurance company said the perception BEVs have fewer moving parts and less can go wrong hasn’t happened. The failure rate is roughly the same. Increased weight puts suspension and braking components under more significant strain in a BEV."

 

"Some insurers are getting nervous about the possible scale of liabilities. John Lewis Financial Services has paused insuring electric vehicles while its underwriter analyses risks and costs.

The cost of replacing batteries is causing insurance companies much angst. Batteries are usually mounted underneath the passenger compartment and cover a huge area. This makes them more vulnerable to damage, and their sensitivity adds to the problem. What would be a minor shunt for an internal combustion engine (ICE) powered vehicle can be catastrophic for an electric one.

A lack of engineering expertise often means the battery has to be written off. Batteries can cost up to half the purchase price of the car. "

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, Rob, you have taken off into fantasy again. If a car has a gasoline engine which can run the vehicle, then it is a fossil fuel car. A typical car battery cannot propel a vehicle, so your comparison is off into the wild blue again.

If the battery charges from a functioning gasoline engine, that is a fossil fuel transportation source.

But I guess I cannot expect any real analysis from a Greenie.

I will agree with you that standard HEVs are ICE powered because all there power comes from the ICE engine, even the electricity from regen braking originates in the ICE.

It is Plugin Hybrids that charge from the grid like a BEV that are electric vehicles. It is a very different category.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, you really are confused. You have your months mixed up.

Here is your post about the September number, remember?

According to you, September was the month with the blip.

Now you are claiming that October is the month with the blip? Remember, EV sales lost fully 1% of market share in October. But you claimed that September was the month with the yearly blip drop in market share. Now you are saying that October is the month with the blip loss of market share?

According to you, EVs are supposed to GAIN market share in October. Read your own material here.

"Note that, in the UK, March and September are new registration plate months, which accounts for the twice-yearly peaks in electric car sales and, historically, a drop in market share in these periods.

So youve not done your research old pal, if you had you would know that what you keep posting again and again is normal in the UK for March and September only!!! The other 10 months EV's gain market share so your little claim is that for 1/6th of the year ICE fractionally gains market share."

 

Actually October of 2022 had a 2% decline in market share for BEVs from the previous month. Month to month comparisons are simply irrelevant to the auto industry.  That is why all the metric reporting is done YOY.:

Zero emission capable car deliveries continued to grow in volume, with battery electric vehicle (BEV) registrations increasing by 23.4% to 19,933 and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) by 6.2% to 8,899. However, BEV uptake grew by less than the overall market for the first time since the pandemic, meaning October 2022 is the first month to see BEV market share fall year on year since May 2021, primarily attributable to supply challenges.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

17 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

 

For your info when your hybrid is using FF it is charging the battery (if flat) by regenerative breaking and will then automatically kick in the battery when you pull away at junctions or accelerate which massively increases your mpg. So really youre never actually NOT using the battery on any journey of any distance.

Sorry Rob but that is a terrible argument. In a standard non plug HEV all the power is generated by the ICE , that makes it an ICE powered car. =But for the ICE engine generating power the car would have none, not even from regen braking. HEV are electrified but not electric vehicles.

It is Plugin Hybrids (PHEV), like you own, that charge from the grid same as a BEV that are electric vehicles. It is a different and separate category.  The critical separation is that ICE cars drive by putting in gas or diesel. Electric vehicles can drive by just plugging into the grid.

This is why the California ICE ban includes HEV but doesn't ban PHEV.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

 

If the battery charges from a functioning gasoline engine, that is a fossil fuel transportation source.

 

But a Plugin car like a PHEV charges from the grid so it is not an ICE powered car.

If the battery charges from the grid it is an EV.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

17 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

That is still a tiny miniscule fraction of the used car market, not worth mentioning.

It doesn't change the fact that market share for new EVs has dropped a full percentage point from September to October.

That is a significant downward trend. 

If a car has a gasoline engine, it qualifies as a fossil fuel car. No intelligence required to see that.

And, no, EVs have no future with insurance companies now bailing out on EV coverage.

"The Motor Easy insurance company said the perception BEVs have fewer moving parts and less can go wrong hasn’t happened. The failure rate is roughly the same. Increased weight puts suspension and braking components under more significant strain in a BEV."

 

"Some insurers are getting nervous about the possible scale of liabilities. John Lewis Financial Services has paused insuring electric vehicles while its underwriter analyses risks and costs.

The cost of replacing batteries is causing insurance companies much angst."

End of story.

End of revolution.

 

 

Well that "miniscule fraction" of the market is about the same as BEVs had in 2019 new car sales. Now I imagine even you know that most used car sales are for models at least 3 years old. The number will grow in proportion to new sales:

Edited November 15, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I will agree with you that standard HEVs are ICE powered because all there power comes from the ICE engine, even the electricity from regen braking originates in the ICE.

It is Plugin Hybrids that charge from the grid like a BEV that are electric vehicles. It is a very different category.

The PHEV still gets classified as fossil fuel because it has a gasoline engine which does operate,and that operation requires gasoline in the gas tank.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well that "miniscule fraction" of the market is about the same as BEVs had in 2019 new car sales. Now I imagine even you know that most used car sales are for models at least 3 years old. The number will grow in proportion to new sales:

The used EV market will never become robust like the fossil fuel car used market because of the age put on the EV power plant. That puts a major discount on the used product relative to the fossil fuel comparison.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

7 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Actually October of 2022 had a 2% decline in market share for BEVs from the previous month. Month to month comparisons are simply irrelevant to the auto industry.  That is why all the metric reporting is done YOY.:

Zero emission capable car deliveries continued to grow in volume, with battery electric vehicle (BEV) registrations increasing by 23.4% to 19,933 and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) by 6.2% to 8,899. However, BEV uptake grew by less than the overall market for the first time since the pandemic, meaning October 2022 is the first month to see BEV market share fall year on year since May 2021, primarily attributable to supply challenges.

The drop in EV purchases in Britain is almost certainly due to two factors.

1) the removal of buying incentives by the UK government last year

2) the recent rapid acceleration in the costs of EV insurance, and the refusal of some British insurance companies to cover any more EVs.

The realities of the market place have begun to bite hard on the EV dream.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The PHEV still gets classified as fossil fuel because it has a gasoline engine which does operate,and that operation requires gasoline in the gas tank.

It does not need to operate the ICE so it is an EV, whether you like it or not. People do not pay extra for the plug unless they mean to use it. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The drop in EV purchases in Britain is almost certainly due to two factors.

1) the removal of buying incentives by the UK government last year

2) the recent rapid acceleration in the costs of EV insurance, and the refusal of some British insurance companies to cover any more EVs.

The realities of the market place have begun to bite hard on the EV dream.

But there wasn't a drop in sales as that is measured YOY. But I will keep playing your dumb game and point out that total car sales of all types went from 273k in September to 154K in October. That is the seasonality of cars in UK and why no one reports month to month metrics, because they are irrelevant.

Look at that drop in Petrol cars by almost 50%!! (Petrol, MHEV Petrol and HEV combined) The same drop as EVs.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The PHEV still gets classified as fossil fuel because it has a gasoline engine which does operate,and that operation requires gasoline in the gas tank.

The ICE does not need to operate. A PHEV can run every day all day for the average driver without ever turning on the ICE. So it is an EV, deal with it. 

If you run the ICE then it is an HEV, people do not pay extra for the plug in capability and then not use it. They will just buy an HEV if they do not want to run it as an EV.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The used EV market will never become robust like the fossil fuel car used market because of the age put on the EV power plant. That puts a major discount on the used product relative to the fossil fuel comparison.

More claims made with zero evidence to support your claims. All you have is my presented evidence of a doubling of used BEV sales which says the market thinks you are wrong.

And don't forget that once EVs take over the new car market it is only a matter of 20 years until the entire fleet are EV.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It does not need to operate the ICE so it is an EV, whether you like it or not. People do not pay extra for the plug unless they mean to use it. 

People do not pay for a gasoline engine without planning to use it, either.

That qualifies as a fossil fuel vehicle.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,474]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

More claims made with zero evidence to support your claims. All you have is my presented evidence of a doubling of used BEV sales which says the market thinks you are wrong.

And don't forget that once EVs take over the new car market it is only a matter of 20 years until the entire fleet are EV.

Those days will never come, the EVs themselves emit more CO2 than fossil fuel vehicles, so even the green crazies have no argument.

Furthermore, without insurance coverage, EVs have no future.

Here is the problem with the battery power plant, both the need for replacement and the insurance cost.

The insurance companies are already pulling out of EVs because of the battery power plant.

The EV batteries are too heavy and too costly to replace.

"https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2023/10/10/insurance-costs-could-cripple-european-electric-car-sales/?sh=56faff2ae68d

"Some insurers are getting nervous about the possible scale of liabilities. John Lewis Financial Services has paused insuring electric vehicles while its underwriter analyses risks and costs.

The cost of replacing batteries is causing insurance companies much angst. Batteries are usually mounted underneath the passenger compartment and cover a huge area. This makes them more vulnerable to damage, and their sensitivity adds to the problem. What would be a minor shunt for an internal combustion engine (ICE) powered vehicle can be catastrophic for an electric one.

A lack of engineering expertise often means the battery has to be written off. Batteries can cost up to half the purchase price of the car. "

There is no hope for an EV future.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

People do not pay for a gasoline engine without planning to use it, either.

That qualifies as a fossil fuel vehicle.

No, they pay extra for a plug and the ability to drive the car on cheap grid electricity for the vast majority of driving. They only use the gas engine when absolutely necessary. More miles driven on grid power than gas makes it an EV.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, you really are confused. You have your months mixed up.

Here is your post about the September number, remember?

According to you, September was the month with the blip.

Now you are claiming that October is the month with the blip? Remember, EV sales lost fully 1% of market share in October. But you claimed that September was the month with the yearly blip drop in market share. Now you are saying that October is the month with the blip loss of market share?

According to you, EVs are supposed to GAIN market share in October. Read your own material here.

"Note that, in the UK, March and September are new registration plate months, which accounts for the twice-yearly peaks in electric car sales and, historically, a drop in market share in these periods.

So youve not done your research old pal, if you had you would know that what you keep posting again and again is normal in the UK for March and September only!!! The other 10 months EV's gain market share so your little claim is that for 1/6th of the year ICE fractionally gains market share."

 

Oh dear God!

I have never mentioned October numbers!

I have my months mixed up 🤣🤣 You clearly havent read your own article that you keep harping on about that EV sales have lost market share.

Here it is again below, the exact one you keep referencing

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/UK-Electric-Car-Market-Dips-Slightly-On-Petrol-Ban-Reversal.html

Do you remember this part of the article? I'm sure you must as you've posted it a dozen times

"But overall BEV market share dipped slightly to 16.6 percent year-on-year, down from 16.9 percent and driven by a fall in demand from private buyers."

The article was posted on 7th October and clearly references September numbers!! I think it is you who is mixed up about which month it relates to.

So this statement below is absolutely corrrect and confirms that you don't understand what youre talking about!

"Note that, in the UK, March and September are new registration plate months, which accounts for the twice-yearly peaks in electric car sales and, historically, a drop in market share in these periods.

Do you now agree you havent researched properly or even read your own article and even called me out on it for getting it wrong when it was you that cocked it up royally!

Theres no amount of wriggling out of this one, or deflecting ECO, time to acknowledge your mistake.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, Rob, you have taken off into fantasy again. If a car has a gasoline engine which can run the vehicle, then it is a fossil fuel car. A typical car battery cannot propel a vehicle, so your comparison is off into the wild blue again.

If the battery charges from a functioning gasoline engine, that is a fossil fuel transportation source.

But I guess I cannot expect any real analysis from a Greenie.

What is this rubbish?

"A typical car battery cannot propel a vehicle"

A hybrid has a battery that will propel a vehicle, actually it propels it a damn sight quicker than an ICE vehicle!

We're not talking about the bloody battery to turn the starter motor ffs!

Are you really resorting to this as an argument???

By the way I'm not a greenie, I work predominantly in the oil & gas industries, I just live in the real world!