GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

13 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Sorry Rob but that is a terrible argument. In a standard non plug HEV all the power is generated by the ICE , that makes it an ICE powered car. =But for the ICE engine generating power the car would have none, not even from regen braking. HEV are electrified but not electric vehicles.

It is Plugin Hybrids (PHEV), like you own, that charge from the grid same as a BEV that are electric vehicles. It is a different and separate category.  The critical separation is that ICE cars drive by putting in gas or diesel. Electric vehicles can drive by just plugging into the grid.

This is why the California ICE ban includes HEV but doesn't ban PHEV.

Jay I was talking about PHEV's sorry I did say hybrids, but PHEV's are hybrids. Yes some charge the battery whilst driving  on ICE like you say but most dont.

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

People do not pay for a gasoline engine without planning to use it, either.

That qualifies as a fossil fuel vehicle.

Its used a fraction of the time, how many more times?

Its only used on longer journeys roughly over 30 miles, how many times on average do people drive longer than that? Even if they have a 40 mile commute many will only be on FF for 20 of the 80 mile round trip as they will recharge their car at work, 60 of those miles will be on the battery.

Why cant you understand this or are you deliberatley being obtuse?

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

35 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Its used a fraction of the time, how many more times?

Its only used on longer journeys roughly over 30 miles, how many times on average do people drive longer than that? Even if they have a 40 mile commute many will only be on FF for 20 of the 80 mile round trip as they will recharge their car at work, 60 of those miles will be on the battery.

Why cant you understand this or are you deliberatley being obtuse?

And PHEV will soon all be at 50 mile range. That is what the California ICE ban requires and it begins to kick in in 2026.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

Jay I was talking about PHEV's sorry I did say hybrids, but PHEV's are hybrids. Yes some charge the battery whilst driving  on ICE like you say but most dont.

They are a different kind of hybrid. No reporting, measuring or legal body combines them. Just saying hybrid means a non plugin car. However the category of 'plugin cars' that combines BEV and PHEV is widespread.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

The Used Electric Vehicle Market Is About to Explode

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-Used-Electric-Vehicle-Market-Is-About-to-Explode.html

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

America’s Best-Selling Sedan Will Be Hybrid-Only by 2025

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Americas-Best-Selling-Sedan-Will-Be-Hybrid-Only-by-2025.html

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

8 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No, they pay extra for a plug and the ability to drive the car on cheap grid electricity for the vast majority of driving. They only use the gas engine when absolutely necessary. More miles driven on grid power than gas makes it an EV.

That still qualifies as a fossil fuel vehicle. Your logic is fractured.

And here is the problem with hybrids, which like EVs require additional insurance premiums.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/why-drivers-pay-more-for-their-car-insurance-when-they-are-insuring-a-hybrid-vehicle-831417078.html

"Hybrid cars can cost from $1,000 to $35,000 per year to insure. Usually, the price of insuring a hybrid is 7% higher than the price to insure a gas-only vehicle. The price of insuring a hybrid is affected by the following factors:

• Higher purchasing costs. Hybrid cars tend to cost more than gas-powered, traditional cars. Usually, the price of a hybrid vehicle can range from $20,000 to $45,000.
• Replacement parts for hybrid vehicles are expensive. Hybrid cars have recently become popular, and the aftermarket repair parts are less common than they are for non-hybrid vehicles.
• Quiet vehicles aren't always better. Hybrid cars are known for being quiet. However, this isn't always a positive thing. A recent study run by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that pedestrian and bicyclist crashes were higher for hybrid vehicles. These incidents occurred more often in areas with low-speed limits.
• Hybrid drivers use their vehicles for more. Knowing that they save money on gas, hybrid drivers tend to drive more. More driving means higher insurance costs.
• Hybrids are popular in urban areas. Crowded cities are known for having higher insurance costs due to higher incidence rates. Hybrid drivers who live in rural areas will likely pay less on their insurance than those living in big,"

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

2 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

America’s Best-Selling Sedan Will Be Hybrid-Only by 2025

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Americas-Best-Selling-Sedan-Will-Be-Hybrid-Only-by-2025.html

But that is only because of government policy, not consumer demand.

And the most popular vehicle now is not the sedan but the SUV.

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

7 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Its used a fraction of the time, how many more times?

Its only used on longer journeys roughly over 30 miles, how many times on average do people drive longer than that? Even if they have a 40 mile commute many will only be on FF for 20 of the 80 mile round trip as they will recharge their car at work, 60 of those miles will be on the battery.

Why cant you understand this or are you deliberatley being obtuse?

I know lots of people who commute over that 30 mile distance. They will use gasoline.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

But that is only because of government policy, not consumer demand.

We are in 3rd quarter debate on EV production, while most here are posting 1&2 quarter deliveries numbers.

The 4th quarter will be emotionally devastating for the EV community....The rage is over,  plants world wide are shutting down...VW has just announced another shutdown, total collapse will be a slow motion process only needed to exhaust the existing part inventories.

 

Volkswagen ID.4 and ID.7 EVs are now impacted by another production halt in Germany

Volkswagen production cut over e-motors or demand?

VW has cut EV production at several German plants over the past few months. Higher inflation and interest rates, fewer subsidies, and more competition have slowed orders.

Earlier this week, Volkswagen said it was halting production at its Zwickau factory for around three weeks. A spokesperson said, “The production of e-drives at the Volkswagen Group Components site in Kassel is currently only possible to a limited extent.”

https://electrek.co/2023/11/10/volkswagen-id-4-id-7-impacted-another-production-halt/

Edited November 16, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[notsonice + 1,243]

44 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

We are in 3rd quarter debate on EV production, while most here are posting 1&2 quarter deliveries numbers.

The 4th quarter will be emotionally devastating for the EV community....The rage is over,  plants world wide are shutting down...VW has just announced another shutdown, total collapse will be a slow motion process only needed to exhaust the existing part inventories.

 

Volkswagen ID.4 and ID.7 EVs are now impacted by another production halt in Germany

Volkswagen production cut over e-motors or demand?

VW has cut EV production at several German plants over the past few months. Higher inflation and interest rates, fewer subsidies, and more competition have slowed orders.

Earlier this week, Volkswagen said it was halting production at its Zwickau factory for around three weeks. A spokesperson said, “The production of e-drives at the Volkswagen Group Components site in Kassel is currently only possible to a limited extent.”

https://electrek.co/2023/11/10/volkswagen-id-4-id-7-impacted-another-production-halt/

We are in 3rd quarter debate on EV production, while most here are posting 1&2 quarter deliveries numbers.??????

Here is the latest numbers

an please do not cry as your  love for clunkers is a fools love

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/11/07/world-ev-sales-now-equal-17-of-world-auto-sales/

World EV Sales Now Equal 17% Of World Auto Sales

November 7, 2023 José Pontes 

 

 

---

Global plugin vehicle registrations were up 23% in September 2023 compared to September 2022, rising to 1,291,00 units. That’s a new all-time record. In the end, plugins represented 17% share of the overall auto market (12% BEV share alone). The market share could have been even higher if the overall ICE market hadn’t also been recovering to pre-COVID levels…. It seems that economic crisis or not, people are still buying cars.

This means that the global automotive market is firmly in the Electric Disruption Zone*. Add the fact that plugless hybrids represented 12% of total automotive sales in September, and we have 29% of global registrations having some form of electrification! (*People have asked me what the “Electric Disruption Zone” is. Basically, it is the steepest part of the tech adoption S-curve. Between 10–20% and 80–90%, market share growth will accelerate, and then it will slow down on the way to 100%.)

Full electric vehicles (BEVs) represented 69% of plugin registrations in September, keeping the year-to-date tally at 70% share.

and from Cox

US electric vehicle market

According to recent Cox Automotive data, US EV sales surpassed 300,000 for the first time in Q3. EV sales in the US have now grown for 13 straight quarters.

EV sales accounted for 7.9% of total US auto sales in Q3 with Tesla remaining on top. Tesla accounted for 50% market share, down from 62% in the first quarter. With the highly-awaited Cybertruck launching, momentum is expected to continue.

	Q3 2023 US sales	Q3 2022	YOY	Q3 Market Share
Audi	7,538	3,891	93.7%	2.4%
BMW	13,079	4,365	199.6%	4.2%
BrightDrop	35	–	0%	0%
Cadillac	3,018	36	0%	1%
Chevrolet	15,872	14,709	7.9%	5.1%
Ford	20,962	18,257	14.8%	6.7%
Genesis	1,802	888	102.9%	0.6%
GMC	1,167	411	183.9%	0.4%
Fisker	997	–	0%	0.3%
Hyundai	19,630	5,824	237.1%	6.3%
Jaguar	86	22	290.9%	0%
Kia	9,325	5,583	67%	3%
Lexus	1,394	–	0%	0.4%
Lucid	1,618

Edited November 16, 2023 by notsonice

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

4 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

America’s Best-Selling Sedan Will Be Hybrid-Only by 2025

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Americas-Best-Selling-Sedan-Will-Be-Hybrid-Only-by-2025.html

None of which will be PHEV. Toyota only makes PHEV under duress.

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

None of which will be PHEV. Toyota only makes PHEV under duress.

Toyota only make EVs under duress.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Toyota only make EVs under duress.

Yeah they aren't very smart. What they really want to deliver more than anything else are hydrogen cars.

Toyota: Driving development in liquid hydrogen fuel

https://evmagazine.com/articles/toyota-driving-development-in-liquid-hydrogen-fuel

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

The entire anti-CO2 movement is running out of gas (excuse the pun).

That movement was never in touch with reality.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Has-the-Energy-Transition-Hit-a-Wall.html

"Wind and solar stocks are declining due to higher costs of raw materials and slow supply response.

EV chargers and copper mining, critical for the energy transition, face demand uncertainties and reluctance in investment.

Despite government subsidies, renewable energy sectors struggle with high costs and interest rates, indicating a slower and more expensive transition than anticipated."

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 671]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The entire anti-CO2 movement is running out of gas (excuse the pun).

That movement was never in touch with reality.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Has-the-Energy-Transition-Hit-a-Wall.html

"Wind and solar stocks are declining due to higher costs of raw materials and slow supply response.

EV chargers and copper mining, critical for the energy transition, face demand uncertainties and reluctance in investment.

Despite government subsidies, renewable energy sectors struggle with high costs and interest rates, indicating a slower and more expensive transition than anticipated."

Nothing in that article is about abandoning climate change science.  Nothing.

It does mention economic realities that are slowing down the transition, but as an economist would know, the economy does not effect one product in isolation.

How is oil doing lately?

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,446]

1 hour ago, TailingsPond said:

Nothing in that article is about abandoning climate change science.  Nothing.

It does mention economic realities that are slowing down the transition, but as an economist would know, the economy does not effect one product in isolation.

How is oil doing lately?

 

Of course it is about phony climate science, that is what is fueling this garbage from the beginning.

You do not understand my reference to anti-CO2 crazies? That is strange.

But now the realities of the nonsensical transition are becoming apparent and biting on the foolish attempts to abandon real energy sources.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

14 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

But that is only because of government policy, not consumer demand.

And the most popular vehicle now is not the sedan but the SUV.

the clue here is it says the most popular sedan, not vehicle.

Dont worry though that is coming soon

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

14 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

I know lots of people who commute over that 30 mile distance. They will use gasoline.

They will only use FF for the difference of the journey which will probably be less than the 60+ miles on the battery for a return journey

According to US statistics which Ive already posted  the average journey for a US citizen is 29 miles, so the many people you know whose commute is longer than this arent the norm!

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

10 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Yeah they aren't very smart. What they really want to deliver more than anything else are hydrogen cars.

Toyota: Driving development in liquid hydrogen fuel

https://evmagazine.com/articles/toyota-driving-development-in-liquid-hydrogen-fuel

There is mileage in Toyota following this route (pun intended).So many breakthroughs in H2 and fuel cells recently. Also the cost of H2 production is set to plummet globally.

If anything is going to curtail the uptake of BEV's then its H2 fuel cells, although the tech isnt there yet.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

If you got a spare £2M

This is a seriously well engineered electric Hypercar! Everything is hand built.

https://www.lotuscars.com/en-GB/evija

0-300KMh in 9.1 seconds (or 0-186mph), each 100KMh takes 3 seconds

Just for comparison the Bugatti Veyron taken 16.7 seconds to get to 300kmh!

Lotus basically got Tesla into mainstream production otherwise old Musk wouldve been toast.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

8 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Also the cost of H2 production is set to plummet globally.

🤪 H2 $$$/kg = Cost/kWh

Has there been a breakthrough making POWER cheaper?

No.[<<Cough>> yes--> Nuclear]

Do we have a viable fuel cell without rare horrifically expensive materials? 

No

Here ends H2 discussion other than by religious cult members.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

8 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

They will only use FF for the difference of the journey which will probably be less than the 60+ miles on the battery for a return journey

According to US statistics which Ive already posted  the average journey for a US citizen is 29 miles, so the many people you know whose commute is longer than this arent the norm!

1. Well suggest you read.  That is average per day, not average per trip. 
2. So, here in REALITY, no one drives on Saturday/Sunday, or at least not much.  So average distance per day is ~40miles, not 30. 
3. Now remove all those people who own a car but take the bus, train, walk to work which currently is about ~+5% of the population so here in REALITY that 40miles turns into ~45miles/day for the average car driver per day. 
4. Here in REALITY, batteries do NOT last long if you drain them 100% continuously.  Therefore if the battery will last as long as the car the average discharge needs to be less than 50%. 
5. So, if your hybrid "range" is 20 miles or 30 miles, here in reality it is only 10-->15miles. 

So, your "sleuth" detective ability has short bus challenges shall we say...

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,552]

22 hours ago, notsonice said:

Here is the latest numbers

an please do not cry as your  love for clunkers is a fools love

Quite interesting numbers, very illuminating. It would seem the GREEN ZOMBIES have aligned themselves with the CCP. Quite puzzling actually, the Green Party actually destroying the Socialist labor party in the EU. 

Revolution Eats It's Own Children comes to mind...Will Europe ever learn...

Europe probes China’s electric car subsidies as imports soar

 

Chinese companies exported nearly 350,000 EVs to nine European countries in the first half of the year, more than they exported in all of 2022, according to data from the China Passenger Car Association. And in the last five years, EU imports of Chinese cars have quadruple

Senior German and French industry executives have recently sounded the alarm about the growing threat posed by Chinese EVs. Electric cars sold in China are roughly 40% cheaper than those sold in Europe, and 50% cheaper than in the US, according to research firm Jato Dynamics.

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/cars/europe-china-electric-car-subsidies/index.html

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

10 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

There is mileage in Toyota following this route (pun intended).So many breakthroughs in H2 and fuel cells recently. Also the cost of H2 production is set to plummet globally.

If anything is going to curtail the uptake of BEV's then its H2 fuel cells, although the tech isnt there yet.

It is the cost of storage, transport and delivery which are the intractable problem. The H2 industry has been around a long time and the cost of those factors is still ludicrous. If H2 is to be a transport fuel it will need to be in the form of ammonia from which H2 is extracted in the vehicle. However Toyota has been looking more at H2 combustion which will not pass clean air laws and how are you going to keep liquid hydrogen cold in a car for a week? No, they are on this bizarre path because the chairman's father set down the use of H2 in their long term business plan which is inviolate.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Jay McKinsey