footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187 April 26 13 hours ago, Rob Plant said: That was Eco's post not mine I was referring to my post I suggest remedial reading class is in order for you.🤡🤡 🤡 Suggest reading class, Eco simply quoted Nobrains link which he was too DAMNED LAZY,... and you as well apparently to READ 👍🤡 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 26 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Eco we've been over this mant times and debunked your post until we're blue in the face. Frankly I cant be bothered to go through it all again and clearly 45 years is utter madness and even the brain dead can see that. the brain dead posters will never see the light Edited April 26 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 26 16 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: 🤡 Suggest reading class, Eco simply quoted Nobrains link which he was too DAMNED LAZY,... and you as well apparently to READ 👍🤡 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 27 14 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Eco we've been over this mant times and debunked your post until we're blue in the face. Frankly I cant be bothered to go through it all again and clearly 45 years is utter madness and even the brain dead can see that. Rob, you failed to read your own source, and if you read it you would see that it fails to debunk anything. Here is your source, quoted in the Guardian article. https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth1 And notice the qualifier which they add to the graph. "Estimates shown2 from GREET 2 2021 are intended to be illustrative only. Estimates represent model year 2020. Emissions will vary based on assumptions about the specific vehicles being compared, EV battery size and chemistry, vehicle lifetimes, and the electricity grid used to recharge the EV, among other factors." In other words, results are different according to location of production. China is a different location than the UK, that is among the "other factors" ignored by your study. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 27 (edited) 6 hours ago, notsonice said: So you still have not read your own source, no surprise. Your study does not use any data on Chinese production and emissions related to Chinese use of coal, this is simply a review of American production. There is nothing here which is relevant to the Norway study. https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs/2023/12/186487.pdf This only looks at LDVs (light duty vehicles), does not consider anything above small SUVs, while the medium and large SUV numbers are ignored. Ridiculous. Using a 2016 study as the basis? "This study is intended to provide a better understanding of the GHG emissions and costs associated with the vehicle and fuel combinations described in (Elgowainy et al. 2016). Note that in this context cost represents the cost to a consumer to purchase the vehicle and energy for the vehicle; it does not include maintenance, insurance, and other costs necessary in vehicle ownership." Here is the conclusion with respect to greenhouse gas emission reduction, read carefully, "Large GHG reductions for LDVs are challenging and require consideration of the entire life cycle, including vehicle manufacture, fuel production, and vehicle operation." Read before you spout more nonsense. Here are the conclusions from the Norway research, for which your cited work above is not even relevant. "Given that China emits 600 grams of CO2 per kwh (China is where almost all of Norway's EV batteries are manufactured), we calculate Norway’s EV fleet would emit 21 mm tonnes of CO2. Norway’s gasoline and diesel consumption fell by a meager 3,200 barrels per day or 50 mm gallons per year. Assuming 9 kg of CO2 per gallon of gasoline or diesel, Norway’s entire EV fleet mitigates a mere 450,000 tonnes of CO2 per year, compared with an upfront emission of 21 mm tonnes. In other words, it would take forty-five years of CO2 savings from reduced gasoline and diesel consumption to offset the initial emissions from the manufacturing of the vehicles. Since an EV battery has a useful life of only ten to fifteen years, it is clear that Norway's EV rollout has increased total lifecycle CO2 emissions dramatically. Incredibly, this is true despite Norway having the lowest carbon hydroelectricity in the world. " Edited April 27 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 27 5 hours ago, Ecocharger said: So you still have not read your own source, no surprise. Your study does not use any data on Chinese production and emissions related to Chinese use of coal, this is simply a review of American production. There is nothing here which is relevant to the Norway study. https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs/2023/12/186487.pdf This only looks at LDVs (light duty vehicles), does not consider anything above small SUVs, while the medium and large SUV numbers are ignored. Ridiculous. Using a 2016 study as the basis? "This study is intended to provide a better understanding of the GHG emissions and costs associated with the vehicle and fuel combinations described in (Elgowainy et al. 2016). Note that in this context cost represents the cost to a consumer to purchase the vehicle and energy for the vehicle; it does not include maintenance, insurance, and other costs necessary in vehicle ownership." Here is the conclusion with respect to greenhouse gas emission reduction, read carefully, "Large GHG reductions for LDVs are challenging and require consideration of the entire life cycle, including vehicle manufacture, fuel production, and vehicle operation." Read before you spout more nonsense. Here are the conclusions from the Norway research, for which your cited work above is not even relevant. "Given that China emits 600 grams of CO2 per kwh (China is where almost all of Norway's EV batteries are manufactured), we calculate Norway’s EV fleet would emit 21 mm tonnes of CO2. Norway’s gasoline and diesel consumption fell by a meager 3,200 barrels per day or 50 mm gallons per year. Assuming 9 kg of CO2 per gallon of gasoline or diesel, Norway’s entire EV fleet mitigates a mere 450,000 tonnes of CO2 per year, compared with an upfront emission of 21 mm tonnes. In other words, it would take forty-five years of CO2 savings from reduced gasoline and diesel consumption to offset the initial emissions from the manufacturing of the vehicles. Since an EV battery has a useful life of only ten to fifteen years, it is clear that Norway's EV rollout has increased total lifecycle CO2 emissions dramatically. Incredibly, this is true despite Norway having the lowest carbon hydroelectricity in the world. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 29 On 4/27/2024 at 7:12 AM, notsonice said: What, you cannot read? Okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 29 27 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: What, you cannot read? Okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 29 Plastics are strong and getting stronger as economies progress. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-Future-of-Plastics-Will-Determine-the-Future-of-Oil-Demand.html "Alternatives to plastic packaging could have a bigger emissions footprint, McKee argued. If this sounds familiar, it is probably because it smacks of the arguments made against the electrification of transport in light of all the raw material mining, refining, and processing inputs into EVs that cast a shadow over its zero-emission credentials. The simple truth is that plastics are used on such a massive scale because they are one, convenient, and two, cheap. Plastic ban advocates would need to come up with alternatives that can offer the same combination of convenience and price to stand a chance at succeeding with the bans on any meaningful scale." "Wind, solar, and EVs, not to mention hydrogen, have consistently failed to dethrone oil, gas, and even coal from their top spot in the global energy mix." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 29 16 hours ago, notsonice said: Nothing to say? Okay, that is understandable. You get a silent fail on this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 29 11 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Nothing to say? Okay, that is understandable. You get a silent fail on this. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 29 Clunkers are doomed along with Coal CleanTechnica CATL, BYD To Slash Battery Prices By 50% In 2024. BOOM! EVs Win! CATL says it will begin selling LFP battery cells in the VDA format at price less than $60 per kWh hour by the middle of this year. . Feb 26, 2024 Three things must happen for the EV revolution to be complete — cheaper batteries, faster charging batteries, and more EV chargers that actually work. CATL and BYD are both on a path to decrease battery prices this year by as much as 50%, meaning battery packs at the end of 2024 could cost half what they did at the end of 2023. CnEVPost reports that in order to secure its market position, CATL is sorting out production line resources and pushing for cost reductions that could drive the price of its VDA spec lithium iron phosphate battery cells down to RMB 0.4 per Wh. That translates to $56.47 per kWh hour. At that price, a 60 kWh battery that costs manufacturers $6,776.00 today will cost just $3,388 12 months from now, saving EV manufacturers over $3,000 per vehicle. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 30 6 hours ago, notsonice said: So you take a default here. You get a rematch when you find your ability to talk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 30 9 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: So you take a default here. You get a rematch when you find your ability to talk. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 30 so much for the Luddites who claim charging an EV takes forever CleanTechnica 10-Minute EV Quick Charge Shown On Polestar 5 With StoreDot XFC Battery Pack The quest for faster EV charging reached another milestone this month as Israeli battery maker StoreDot demonstrated its silicon-dominant EV... . 26 minutes ago PR Newswire STOREDOT AND POLESTAR SHOWCASE WORLD'S FIRST ELECTRIC VEHICLE 10-MINUTE CHARGE WITH SI ... Demo shows a Polestar 5 fitted with StoreDot's XFC cells charging from 10% to 80% within 10 minutes The setup consists of an 77kWh battery... . 13 hours ago The Victoria Advocate Forget Tesla's Supercharging, Polestar's new charging tech can charge even faster The prototype Polestar has experimental batteries featuring silicon anode technology. . 3 hours ago New Atlas Extreme fast charge test clocks Polestar 5 at 1,200 miles per hour On the road to delivering 100 miles of EV range in five minutes by the end of 2024, tech firm StoreDot has installed its extreme fast... . 8 hours ago The Driven | Polestar and StoreDot announce EV battery breakthrough for “extreme fast charging” Swedish electric vehicle (EV) maker Polestar and Israeli battery manufacturer StoreDot have announced a major breakthrough in EV battery... . 14 hours ago Electrek 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,535 April 30 (edited) 4 hours ago, notsonice said: so much for the Luddites who claim charging an EV takes forever CleanTechnica 10-Minute EV Quick Charge Shown On Polestar 5 With StoreDot XFC Battery Pack The quest for faster EV charging reached another milestone this month as Israeli battery maker StoreDot demonstrated its silicon-dominant EV... . 26 minutes ago PR Newswire STOREDOT AND POLESTAR SHOWCASE WORLD'S FIRST ELECTRIC VEHICLE 10-MINUTE CHARGE WITH SI ... Demo shows a Polestar 5 fitted with StoreDot's XFC cells charging from 10% to 80% within 10 minutes The setup consists of an 77kWh battery... . 13 hours ago The Victoria Advocate Forget Tesla's Supercharging, Polestar's new charging tech can charge even faster The prototype Polestar has experimental batteries featuring silicon anode technology. . 3 hours ago New Atlas Extreme fast charge test clocks Polestar 5 at 1,200 miles per hour On the road to delivering 100 miles of EV range in five minutes by the end of 2024, tech firm StoreDot has installed its extreme fast... . 8 hours ago The Driven | Polestar and StoreDot announce EV battery breakthrough for “extreme fast charging” Swedish electric vehicle (EV) maker Polestar and Israeli battery manufacturer StoreDot have announced a major breakthrough in EV battery... . 14 hours ago Electrek While faster charging battery is desirable, the charging points will have to be carefully considered. Using a reasonable voltage (say, 700 VDC), at 310KW, the connections must be able to carry about 450 amperes. That's a LOT of current. The cabling between the vehicle and charge source will require significant forced liquid cooling, as many high current EV charge points are today, at FAR less levels of current. Except this new "cable" is gotta be really special, perhaps built with multiple liquid cooling circuits using pre-chilled fluids WE will need the strength of a well-built teenager to lift, support, orient, and plug the vehicle in and out (unless you use a plethora of cable connections to break up the current and reduce the weight of the connectors). That teenager may be required to wear an arc-flash suite of PPE! Not that some other connection method is possible. Solid bus-bar (air-cooled)? The existing charging paradigm (plug it in by hand, similar to refueling an ICE) will have to be significantly modified. Because, physics. Anyhow, this also requires charge points WITH that capability. How many are out there? At this time, probably only one. Edited April 30 by turbguy 1 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,747 RP April 30 13 hours ago, Ecocharger said: "Wind, solar, and EVs, not to mention hydrogen, have consistently failed to dethrone oil, gas, and even coal from their top spot in the global energy mix." They have taken significant market share of the energy mix and are set to grow way faster than FF. Hydrogen is in its infancy but will become a major player. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,747 RP April 30 14 hours ago, Ecocharger said: "Wind, solar, and EVs, not to mention hydrogen, have consistently failed to dethrone oil, gas, and even coal from their top spot in the global energy mix." Battery Storage Is the No. 1 Energy Investment Playground https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Battery-Storage-Is-the-No-1-Energy-Investment-Playground.html 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 30 (edited) Right now, Norway shows that even with a high EV new sales rate, demand for oil continues to increase. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/OPEC-Chief-Challenges-Reports-Predicting-Demise-of-Oil-Demand.html "The International Energy Agency is also the outlet that just recently forecast sales of EVs—a major factor for oil demand destruction according to all predictions—will boom this year, even though sales data from the first three months of the year shows a marked slowdown. Also, it was just revealed by UBS that Norway, which has the highest per-capita penetration rate in EVs, has not moved the needle on oil demand at all since it started on its electrification journey." https://www.investing.com/news/commodities-news/norways-oil-demand-steady-despite-rise-to-ev-superpower-ubs-says-3399266 "Norway leads zero-emission car sales, but surprisingly that hasn't left a big dent in the electric car superpower's appetite for oil, suggesting that calls on peak oil are premature. In January, a record 92.1% of all new cars sold were purely electric in Norway, UBS said in Wednesday note, a trend that has been gaining momentum since the rise in EV sales in 2010. But so far, the impact on oil demand in Norway "has been negligible," UBS adds, noting the plunge gasoline demand has been more than offset by other oil products." "In Norway, LPG/ ethane demand, which is mostly used in the petrochemical sector, but also as fuel for heating and cooking - has been particularly strong, around 35%, UBS added." Edited April 30 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 30 15 hours ago, turbguy said: While faster charging battery is desirable, the charging points will have to be carefully considered. Using a reasonable voltage (say, 700 VDC), at 310KW, the connections must be able to carry about 450 amperes. That's a LOT of current. The cabling between the vehicle and charge source will require significant forced liquid cooling, as many high current EV charge points are today, at FAR less levels of current. Except this new "cable" is gotta be really special, perhaps built with multiple liquid cooling circuits using pre-chilled fluids WE will need the strength of a well-built teenager to lift, support, orient, and plug the vehicle in and out (unless you use a plethora of cable connections to break up the current and reduce the weight of the connectors). That teenager may be required to wear an arc-flash suite of PPE! Not that some other connection method is possible. Solid bus-bar (air-cooled)? The existing charging paradigm (plug it in by hand, similar to refueling an ICE) will have to be significantly modified. Because, physics. Anyhow, this also requires charge points WITH that capability. How many are out there? At this time, probably only one. All a step in the right direction........Rome was not built in a day just 10 years ago EVs really were not feasible and the amount of public charging stations was close to none today charging stations are everywhere Batteries used to cost a fortune and now the price has dropped to make EVs equal on upfront purchase costs the same as Clunkers Charging stations are getting more numerous and faster....if they can bring it down to 10 minutes even the Luddite clunker owners will have nothing to bitch about when it comes to buying a new car How long does it take to fully charge an EV at a public charging station? It can take as little as 30 minutes or less to charge a typical electric car (60kWh battery) at a 150kW rapid charging station from empty-to-full. If you use a 7kW public charger, you can expect to achieve the same in under 8 hours and around 3 hours using a 22 kW chargepoint.Apr 10, 2024 How Long Does It Take to Charge an Electric Car? - Pod Point 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 30 2 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Right now, Norway shows that even with a high EV new sales rate, demand for oil continues to increase. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/OPEC-Chief-Challenges-Reports-Predicting-Demise-of-Oil-Demand.html "The International Energy Agency is also the outlet that just recently forecast sales of EVs—a major factor for oil demand destruction according to all predictions—will boom this year, even though sales data from the first three months of the year shows a marked slowdown. Also, it was just revealed by UBS that Norway, which has the highest per-capita penetration rate in EVs, has not moved the needle on oil demand at all since it started on its electrification journey." https://www.investing.com/news/commodities-news/norways-oil-demand-steady-despite-rise-to-ev-superpower-ubs-says-3399266 "Norway leads zero-emission car sales, but surprisingly that hasn't left a big dent in the electric car superpower's appetite for oil, suggesting that calls on peak oil are premature. In January, a record 92.1% of all new cars sold were purely electric in Norway, UBS said in Wednesday note, a trend that has been gaining momentum since the rise in EV sales in 2010. But so far, the impact on oil demand in Norway "has been negligible," UBS adds, noting the plunge gasoline demand has been more than offset by other oil products." "In Norway, LPG/ ethane demand, which is mostly used in the petrochemical sector, but also as fuel for heating and cooking - has been particularly strong, around 35%, UBS added." so glad you actually did not look at the real facts......on par for your usual posts...it must really suck to be you...always wrong and only idiots to support yourself Gasoline consumption, thousand barrels per day For that indicator, we provide data for Norway from 1980 to 2022. The average value for Norway during that period was 32.26 thousand barrels per day with a minimum of 15.21 thousand barrels per day in 2022 and a maximum of 41.39 thousand barrels per day in 1990. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Norway/gasoline_consumption/#:~:text=Gasoline consumption%2C thousand barrels per day&text=For that indicator%2C we provide,barrels per day in 1990. Norway Gasoline consumption - data, chart Definition: Gasoline consumption includes the consumption of: conventional gasoline; all types of oxygenated gasoline, including gasohol; and reformulated gasoline; but excludes the consumption of aviation gasoline. Volumetric data on blending components, such as oxygenates, are not counted in the data on finished motor gasoline until the blending components are blended into the gasoline. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,535 April 30 4 hours ago, notsonice said: Charging stations are getting more numerous and faster....if they can bring it down to 10 minutes even the Luddite clunker owners will have nothing to bitch about when it comes to buying a new car Yes, charging points are becoming more numerous, for vehicles that are built for the existing charging schemes, EXCEPT for points that can provide much higher currents that Polestar seems to need to achieve such short charging times. What happens to all the existing charging points that now exist? If the market really changes to high current fast charging, then those are all obsolete (or at least, in very low demand). Now, all NEW charging points must be provided. $$$$$$$ from somewhere. BIG $$$$$$$, too! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,243 DM April 30 2 minutes ago, turbguy said: Yes, charging points are becoming more numerous, for vehicles that are built for the existing charging schemes, EXCEPT for points that can provide much higher currents that Polestar seems to need to achieve such short charging times. What happens to all the existing charging points that now exist? If the market really changes to high current fast charging, then those are all obsolete (or at least, in very low demand). Now, all NEW charging points must be provided. $$$$$$$ from somewhere. BIG $$$$$$$, too! an EV today costs 1/2 of one from 3 years ago and are so much better...does that mean we should not evolve with the market???? chargers being built today will most likely be not being installed 2 years from now...........if better comes out better will be installed...and older ones will get replaced........or no one will use them...money down the tubes today for todays technology ????? story of advancing technology kinda like when digital camera came out ..........everything evolves to better , faster, cheaper and easier to use Does anyone use one of those old expensive $1000 digital cameras that were sold 30 years ago??? of course not ....you can use a cell phone and the cost for a cheap one that is better than the old digital cameras 1/10 the price This led to the first commercially available DSLR camera, the Kodak DCS-100 and soon more companies were jumping on the digital camera trend, including Apple who launched Apple QuickTake 100 in 1994. This was the first color digital camera that cost less than $1,000, which made it possible for more Americans to start capturing precious memories in digital format. The world's first digital camera was developed in 1975 by Eastman Kodak engineer Steven Sasson in Rochester, New York. It didn't resemble the DSLR camera systems we are used to, weighed almost 4 kilograms, and was roughly the size of a toaster.May 11, 2023 The History of the First Digital Camera from Concept to 2024 ... capture.com https://www.capture.com › blogs › photo › first-digital-c... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,552 April 30 (edited) 23 minutes ago, turbguy said: What happens to all the existing charging points that now exist? If the market really changes to high current fast charging, then those are all obsolete (or at least, in very low demand). Now, all NEW charging points must be provided. $$$$$$$ from somewhere. BIG $$$$$$$, too! Interesting point Turbguy, looks like a certain administration has a bundle of "Get Of Town" bundle...go Figure! Congress provided $7.5B for electric vehicle chargers. Built so far: Zero. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Biden signed the bipartisan infrastructure,the United States by 2030. Edited April 30 by Eyes Wide Open 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,446 DL April 30 (edited) 5 hours ago, notsonice said: so glad you actually did not look at the real facts......on par for your usual posts...it must really suck to be you...always wrong and only idiots to support yourself Gasoline consumption, thousand barrels per day For that indicator, we provide data for Norway from 1980 to 2022. The average value for Norway during that period was 32.26 thousand barrels per day with a minimum of 15.21 thousand barrels per day in 2022 and a maximum of 41.39 thousand barrels per day in 1990. https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Norway/gasoline_consumption/#:~:text=Gasoline consumption%2C thousand barrels per day&text=For that indicator%2C we provide,barrels per day in 1990. Norway Gasoline consumption - data, chart Definition: Gasoline consumption includes the consumption of: conventional gasoline; all types of oxygenated gasoline, including gasohol; and reformulated gasoline; but excludes the consumption of aviation gasoline. Volumetric data on blending components, such as oxygenates, are not counted in the data on finished motor gasoline until the blending components are blended into the gasoline. I guess you have trouble reading. That keeps you in your own cocoon, unaware of the real world. "...it was just revealed by UBS that Norway, which has the highest per-capita penetration rate in EVs, has not moved the needle on oil demand at all since it started on its electrification journey." " Edited April 30 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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