Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 25 On 5/23/2024 at 4:03 AM, Rob Plant said: I take what I said back. You clearly MUST have a low IQ if you genuinely believe coal is a non-polluter and I'm NOT talking about Co2. I guess you think that non-renewables are non-polluters? And that trends towards near zero mean nothing? That is really mathematically challenged thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ecocharger said: I have shown you the trends, and they are now at miniscule levels. What more could you want? You clearly did not look at the pollution release data presented. You only looked your graph... Look at the releases from a single mine. https://pollution-waste.canada.ca/national-release-inventory/2022/6669 Ideally zero emissions. Edited May 25 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 25 (edited) One coal mine in one year... https://pollution-waste.canada.ca/national-release-inventory/2022/6669 Some highlights: Emissions to air: 193 tonnes carbon monoxide. 76 tonnes nitric oxides 41,737 tonnes of particulate matter of which 2121 tonnes were PM 2.5. Emissions to water: 601 tonnes nitrate 7,242 kg of selenium Literally tonnes of emissions is in no way "minuscule." Edited May 25 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ecocharger said: I guess you think that non-renewables are non-polluters? LOL You are the one saying non-renewables are non-polluters. Even if you meant renewables we were talking about coal pollution, do not try to deflect from that topic. "But, but, what about the copper mines?" Is not a rebuttal to the topic of coal mine pollution. Edited May 25 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 26 9 hours ago, TailingsPond said: You clearly did not look at the pollution release data presented. You only looked your graph... Look at the releases from a single mine. https://pollution-waste.canada.ca/national-release-inventory/2022/6669 Ideally zero emissions. Show me something from renewables. Let's see that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 26 (edited) 12 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Show me something from renewables. Let's see that. There are no renewables mines. I could look up a copper mine or something like that but the product from those mines are used for a variety of things. It would not be correct to attribute all the pollution from those mines to renewable energy products. Low-grade coal is exclusively used a fuel and so it is correct to attribute all the pollution from a coal mine to fossil fuel usage. Regardless, pollution from other sources wouldn't make coal any less polluting. Your argument is illogical. I also didn't make any silly claims like "renewable energy products are non-polluters." I have no claim to defend. You, however, did make a claim that coal was a non-polluter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Edited May 26 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM May 26 2 hours ago, TailingsPond said: There are no renewables mines. I could look up a copper mine or something like that but the product from those mines are used for a variety of things. It would not be correct to attribute all the pollution from those mines to renewable energy products. Low-grade coal is exclusively used a fuel and so it is correct to attribute all the pollution from a coal mine to fossil fuel usage. Regardless, pollution from other sources wouldn't make coal any less polluting. Your argument is illogical. I also didn't make any silly claims like "renewable energy products are non-polluters." I have no claim to defend. You, however, did make a claim that coal was a non-polluter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism you are arguing with an ignorant person who either believes his own BS or is being paid to post BS. Anyone posting BS claims such as Coal is a non polluter or that the use of fossil fuels does not affect the planet are just plain braid dead. Ignore them or post facts in their face ....they really do hate facts. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 27 Oil demand is ramping up far beyond the expected levels. The demands for oil in transportation, plastics, and manufacturing are pushing up oil demand into new levels never seen before. Fossil fuels are King. https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Indian-Oil-Demand-Grows-Despite-Higher-Prices.html “India was already the world’s second-largest crude oil net importer in 2023, having boosted imports by 36% over the past decade to 4.6 mb/d to meet rising refinery intake,” the IEA wrote in the report. It added that imports of crude are set to grow further in the coming years, hitting 5.8 million barrels daily by 2030. Total demand for oil by that year was seen reaching 6.6 million barrels daily, an increase from 5.5 million barrels daily last year." "...with India’s economy on a strong growth trajectory, some expect the resulting increase in demand for things such as plastics, cars, and overall travel to continue driving global oil demand higher for longer than the next four years." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 27 On 5/26/2024 at 11:47 AM, TailingsPond said: There are no renewables mines. I could look up a copper mine or something like that but the product from those mines are used for a variety of things. It would not be correct to attribute all the pollution from those mines to renewable energy products. Low-grade coal is exclusively used a fuel and so it is correct to attribute all the pollution from a coal mine to fossil fuel usage. Regardless, pollution from other sources wouldn't make coal any less polluting. Your argument is illogical. I also didn't make any silly claims like "renewable energy products are non-polluters." I have no claim to defend. You, however, did make a claim that coal was a non-polluter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism If you are arguing for a transition to renewables, you have to look at alternative pollution scenarios, otherwise your argument is meaningless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 27 21 hours ago, notsonice said: you are arguing with an ignorant person who either believes his own BS or is being paid to post BS. Anyone posting BS claims such as Coal is a non polluter or that the use of fossil fuels does not affect the planet are just plain braid dead. Ignore them or post facts in their face ....they really do hate facts. I guess you never heard of renewable pollution sources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 27 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ecocharger said: If you are arguing for a transition to renewables, you have to look at alternative pollution scenarios, otherwise your argument is meaningless. I didn't make any argument other than coal pollutes a lot. I also accept that all industries make pollution and so I don't write ridiculous things like you did. This whole conversation was about coal and your claim that it is a "non-polluter." FYI we could get rid of coal and still not use renewable energy. Our local coal power plants have almost all been converted to natural gas which is way less polluting. https://globalnews.ca/news/8477926/transalta-coal-natural-gas-power/ https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/oil-gas/the-big-switch-meet-the-alberta-utility-that-pivoted-to-natural-gas-despite-lure-of-cheap-coal https://globalnews.ca/news/8481680/getting-off-coal-how-capital-power-plans-to-completely-transform-genesee/ Coal is filth. Edited May 27 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 28 On 5/25/2024 at 5:24 PM, Ecocharger said: I guess you think that non-renewables are non-polluters? No you think that, thats why you said coal is a non-polluter! You are struggling with reading and writing I see, no wonder you struggle with facts. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,544 May 28 On 5/25/2024 at 10:20 AM, Ecocharger said: They would never get off the ground. EVs would never happen. They already did: 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 28 (edited) There is heated world demand for oil and other commodities, but also a super-heated demand related to the American government's insatiable insistence on hyper-spending for the "transition", which will lead to renewed inflation and the inability of the Fed to control the inflation pressures. Further, the persistence of gigantic budget deficits rolled out from the White House and the present occupant of that office is downgrading the ability to market government debt. A perfect storm of government and White House incompetence. Incompetence with a capital "I". https://oilprice.com/Metals/Commodities/Surging-Commodity-Prices-Re-Ignite-Inflation-Fears.html "The switch back toward a multipolar world also adds to commodities-driven inflation via supply shocks, like the reduction from Russia and Ukraine of various classes of raw materials and tensions in the Middle East. The reflationary impact of commodities driven by these trends helps explain the pivot toward hawkish holds across key central banks this month. And increased government spending — actual and potential — underscores the upside skew for yields." Edited May 28 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 28 23 hours ago, TailingsPond said: I didn't make any argument other than coal pollutes a lot. I also accept that all industries make pollution and so I don't write ridiculous things like you did. This whole conversation was about coal and your claim that it is a "non-polluter." FYI we could get rid of coal and still not use renewable energy. Our local coal power plants have almost all been converted to natural gas which is way less polluting. https://globalnews.ca/news/8477926/transalta-coal-natural-gas-power/ https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/oil-gas/the-big-switch-meet-the-alberta-utility-that-pivoted-to-natural-gas-despite-lure-of-cheap-coal https://globalnews.ca/news/8481680/getting-off-coal-how-capital-power-plans-to-completely-transform-genesee/ Coal is filth. Coal-related pollution is controllable with the new technologies, and the rapid decrease of pollutants from coal shows that this is not a problem. The real problem with pollution is related to the renewables sectors, which are going to be uncontrollable if the wild schemes of the current White House are ever brought into reality. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 28 8 hours ago, Rob Plant said: No you think that, thats why you said coal is a non-polluter! You are struggling with reading and writing I see, no wonder you struggle with facts. Must be a quiet day for you....this is the best you have? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Coal-related pollution is controllable with the new technologies, and the rapid decrease of pollutants from coal shows that this is not a problem. The real problem with pollution is related to the renewables sectors, which are going to be uncontrollable if the wild schemes of the current White House are ever brought into reality. No it's not. I showed you recent pollution levels from coal mines. You are now backtracking on your coal is a "non-polluter" position which discredits you. You were either completely ignorant or purposefully deceptive. I live in reality were the power plants have already been retrofitted to natural gas. The power industry itself doesn't agree with your stance on coal. Think about it for a bit. If natural gas is "basically free" (at least according to your buddy) why would the plant want to have to haul truckloads of coal, maintain trucks, spray roads for dust control, and then deal with ash? Gas comes in a pipe and leaves no ash. My natural gas furnace is essentially maintenance free. They probably need a lot fewer employees to run a nat gas power plant. I'm am done with this particular discussion. You are now just resorting to off-topic whataboutism. Edited May 28 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Further, the persistence of gigantic budget deficits rolled out from the White House and the present occupant of that office is downgrading the ability to market government debt. A perfect storm of government and White House incompetence. Do you pretend that trump ran a balance budget? He ran massive, massive deficits. Nobody can run a deficit like him. Tax cuts for the rich, failed trade war with China requiring bailouts for the effected industries etc.. https://www.crfb.org/blogs/how-much-did-president-trump-add-debt "We estimate the ten-year cost of the legislation and executive actions President Trump signed into law was about $8.4 trillion, with interest." https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump Edited May 28 by TailingsPond 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 29 3 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Do you pretend that trump ran a balance budget? He ran massive, massive deficits. Nobody can run a deficit like him. Tax cuts for the rich, failed trade war with China requiring bailouts for the effected industries etc.. https://www.crfb.org/blogs/how-much-did-president-trump-add-debt "We estimate the ten-year cost of the legislation and executive actions President Trump signed into law was about $8.4 trillion, with interest." https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump No, the champion big spender is Biden by a country mile, with fantastic run-ups projected to almost double the national debt over a very short period of time. Trump looks like a skin-flint by comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL May 29 (edited) 3 hours ago, TailingsPond said: No it's not. I showed you recent pollution levels from coal mines. You are now backtracking on your coal is a "non-polluter" position which discredits you. You were either completely ignorant or purposefully deceptive. I live in reality were the power plants have already been retrofitted to natural gas. The power industry itself doesn't agree with your stance on coal. Think about it for a bit. If natural gas is "basically free" (at least according to your buddy) why would the plant want to have to haul truckloads of coal, maintain trucks, spray roads for dust control, and then deal with ash? Gas comes in a pipe and leaves no ash. My natural gas furnace is essentially maintenance free. They probably need a lot fewer employees to run a nat gas power plant. I'm am done with this particular discussion. You are now just resorting to off-topic whataboutism. You seem to forget that nearly all of coal pollution can be eliminated by the new technology. Get used to it. Furthermore, the renewable sector has out-of-control pollution problems, so if you think that toxic emissions is a problem, start by shutting down the renewable energy sectors. Edited May 29 by Ecocharger 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 29 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: No, the champion big spender is Biden by a country mile, with fantastic run-ups projected to almost double the national debt over a very short period of time. Trump looks like a skin-flint by comparison. show data Edited May 29 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE May 29 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: You seem to forget that nearly all of coal pollution can be eliminated by the new technology. Tell me what technology is going to solve this mine pollution? Cover all the exposed coal piles with tarps? Spray the roads with even more dust control agents? Reduce the pollution from the trucks with enormously expensive catalytic converters that require rare earth elements? All this pollution is from the mine alone. You are probably thinking only of the power plant emissions. Look with your eyes, not your indoctrination. So tell me where is this fantasy mine pollution control technology you so believe in that even modern mines do not yet have? Lastly, why do you ignore the fact we have converted power plants away from coal without using the renewable energy sources you demonize? It nat gas is still a fossil fuel, relax! Coal is filth. Edited May 29 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 29 12 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Must be a quiet day for you....this is the best you have? Its all I need pal! Shows you dont know what youre talking about, so its just fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 29 5 hours ago, Ecocharger said: You seem to forget that nearly all of coal pollution can be eliminated by the new technology. Get used to it. Furthermore, the renewable sector has out-of-control pollution problems, so if you think that toxic emissions is a problem, start by shutting down the renewable energy sectors. Wow even when faced with facts from people who have actually worked at coal plants and coal mines you choose to ignore them. The "new technology" reduces but by no means eliminates coal pollution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM May 29 7 hours ago, Ecocharger said: You seem to forget that nearly all of coal pollution can be eliminated by the new technology. Get used to it. Furthermore, the renewable sector has out-of-control pollution problems, so if you think that toxic emissions is a problem, start by shutting down the renewable energy sectors. You seem to forget that nearly all of coal pollution can be eliminated by the new technology. ????? you obviously have never worked at a coal mine Lets talk about coal mining...OK???? first of all one of the biggest pollution streams is the methane releases during coal mining........... methane capture???? real hard to do when gas is bleeding out of the floors and the seams themselves (floor heave is real common as you are mining the floor heaves and all the underlying strata is ruptured on the release of the overburden pressure.)....So to get rid of the methane....massive fans to reduce methane to under 1 percent (law) and you exhaust the methane to the atmosphere....... second is the waste piles......open pit.....massive ....these piles always have pyrite in them (you do realize many coal seams are wasted and only the economic seams are recovered.... so the dumps have massive amounts of uneconomic coal with yep you got it pyrite/sulfur in them what make a seam of coal uneconomic ?????? well for one High sulfur content now prep plants......they discard low grade coal and you got it pyrite.....these waste products go into unlined repositories....yo have top love the acidic waters that always come out of the piles.....and the groundwater associated with the piles.........hope you have ceramic lined stomach Visit beatiful West Virgina recently.....take a trip to coal country and want to take a sip of that mountain water in the creeks???watch out at the ph may be as low as 2...only 12000 miles of contaminated streams Coal a non polluter...advance tech solving it???????yeah right...go work at a coal mine and open your eyes...not a pretty sight when it comes to pollution In coal country, a new chance to clean up a toxic legacy West Virginia Water Research Institute https://wvwri.wvu.edu › news › 2022/05/23 › in-coal-co... May 23, 2022 — Across the country, waste from abandoned and bankrupt coal and metal mines has contaminated more than 12,000 miles of waterways. This legacy 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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