Rob Plant + 2,756 RP June 27 (edited) AI and EV Boom To Add 290 TWh of New Electricity Demand in the U.S. AI and EV Boom To Add 290 TWh of New Electricity Demand in the U.S. | OilPrice.com "EVs will emerge as the second major catalyst for power demand growth in the US market up to 2030. In 2023, electricity consumption in the transportation sector totaled 18.3 TWh. By 2030, this figure is projected to soar to 131 TWh, driven primarily by the expansion of battery electric vehicles (BEVs)." The other take away from this is that by 2030 50% of powergen in the US will be from renewables. Look away now Eco otherwise you will see coal demand destruction in the US! Edited June 27 by Rob Plant 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE June 27 4 hours ago, Ecocharger said: If I had a nickel's worth of Buffett's hunch power I would now be resigned from blogging and just sit around drinking lemonades. The man oozes hunch power. The losers and slow-witted analysts are betting against him. That tells me everything I need to know. You don't have Buffet's buying power. His large share purchases can actually hurt the average investor, like yourself, that is if you actually put money where your mouth is. NYSX: OXY is at $62.87. B.H. got 5 billion in warrants at $59.62. If the stock price rises much they will use the warrants and drive down the share price back towards $59.63. So go ahead and buy at $62.87... You blog for a living? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 27 9 hours ago, Rob Plant said: AI and EV Boom To Add 290 TWh of New Electricity Demand in the U.S. AI and EV Boom To Add 290 TWh of New Electricity Demand in the U.S. | OilPrice.com "EVs will emerge as the second major catalyst for power demand growth in the US market up to 2030. In 2023, electricity consumption in the transportation sector totaled 18.3 TWh. By 2030, this figure is projected to soar to 131 TWh, driven primarily by the expansion of battery electric vehicles (BEVs)." The other take away from this is that by 2030 50% of powergen in the US will be from renewables. Look away now Eco otherwise you will see coal demand destruction in the US! Still giving us wild "projections" of a fantasized future? Why not show us instead the necessity of fossil fuels to make life possible on this planet for its billions of needy people? Reality shows that without fossil fuels, billions would die quickly. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Can-Renewable-Energy-Sustain-Our-Cooling-Needs-During-Heat-Waves.html "More likely, modern HVAC systems will become unavailable for large swaths of the population. Because, in addition to the effort to ban fossil fuels, today’s environmentalists have also set their sights on the refrigerants these systems rely on. It began in the nineties when the world’s governments seized on a scare that CFCs were causing a hole in the ozone layer (which was essentially a complete hoax) to ban the refrigerant and force a transition to a worse alternative called hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs). The coerced adoption of HFCs made refrigerators, air conditioning systems, and even asthma inhalers more expensive and less effective. That’s the big reason why, as Thornton pointed out in the article linked above, air conditioning’s march to affordability reversed course in the 1990s and now costs so much. But it gets worse. The US government has already passed legislation to phase in a total ban on HFCs. Most bans are set to kick in over the next couple of years, but unlike the CFC ban thirty years ago, there is no clear alternative this time around. If it’s mentioned at all, the other options presented are the same toxic, flammable, inefficient compounds like ammonia and propane that were used in the early air conditioning units ninety-five years ago. Companies have begun hoarding HFCs as the phaseout progresses and, earlier this year, the first arrest was made for smuggling the refrigerant into the country. As air conditioning becomes even less affordable and available, all the benefits outlined above begin to slip out of reach as well. Life grows more expensive because internet, food, and rent prices will rise as the supply of data centers, refrigeration systems, and urban housing takes a hit. And, ironically, the warmest parts of the country will become less inhabitable, not because of a change in the climate, but because so-called green policies are destroying our ability to make them livable. So, in a sense, environmentalists are right when they warn that heat waves will become more dangerous. But it’s not because of small increases in their average peak temperature. It’s because of the environmentalists themselves." 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 27 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Still giving us wild "projections" of a fantasized future? Why not show us instead the necessity of fossil fuels to make life possible on this planet for its billions of needy people? Reality shows that without fossil fuels, billions would die quickly. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Can-Renewable-Energy-Sustain-Our-Cooling-Needs-During-Heat-Waves.html "More likely, modern HVAC systems will become unavailable for large swaths of the population. Because, in addition to the effort to ban fossil fuels, today’s environmentalists have also set their sights on the refrigerants these systems rely on. It began in the nineties when the world’s governments seized on a scare that CFCs were causing a hole in the ozone layer (which was essentially a complete hoax) to ban the refrigerant and force a transition to a worse alternative called hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs). The coerced adoption of HFCs made refrigerators, air conditioning systems, and even asthma inhalers more expensive and less effective. That’s the big reason why, as Thornton pointed out in the article linked above, air conditioning’s march to affordability reversed course in the 1990s and now costs so much. But it gets worse. The US government has already passed legislation to phase in a total ban on HFCs. Most bans are set to kick in over the next couple of years, but unlike the CFC ban thirty years ago, there is no clear alternative this time around. If it’s mentioned at all, the other options presented are the same toxic, flammable, inefficient compounds like ammonia and propane that were used in the early air conditioning units ninety-five years ago. Companies have begun hoarding HFCs as the phaseout progresses and, earlier this year, the first arrest was made for smuggling the refrigerant into the country. As air conditioning becomes even less affordable and available, all the benefits outlined above begin to slip out of reach as well. Life grows more expensive because internet, food, and rent prices will rise as the supply of data centers, refrigeration systems, and urban housing takes a hit. And, ironically, the warmest parts of the country will become less inhabitable, not because of a change in the climate, but because so-called green policies are destroying our ability to make them livable. So, in a sense, environmentalists are right when they warn that heat waves will become more dangerous. But it’s not because of small increases in their average peak temperature. It’s because of the environmentalists themselves." More likely, modern HVAC systems will become unavailable for large swaths of the population???? Luttides love to fear monger.....Do not worry, little one, you can get a HVAC system that is comparable in cost and with better cooling efficiency pesky solar panels .....produce super cheap electricity right as the Sun is roasting you.........and presto Air conditioning is affordable to the masses..... Check out the latest DC direct from solar panel air conditioners....No need to be hooked up to the grid...you can camp in the wilderness with air conditioning Latest refrigerants are already being produced at a price comparable to existing refrigerants and the kicker ✓ More efficient Some A2L refrigerants have higher cooling efficiency, so that less refrigerant is needed to service an AC unit compared to R410-A. This translates to more savings. higher cooling efficiency means smaller everything to get the same cooling effect.......Enjoy PS if you air conditioner in your clunker losses refrigerant do not worry you can get your old clunker refrigerant for at least the next 10 years Edited June 27 by notsonice 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 27 41 minutes ago, notsonice said: More likely, modern HVAC systems will become unavailable for large swaths of the population???? Luttides love to fear monger.....Do not worry, little one, you can get a HVAC system that is comparable in cost and with better cooling efficiency pesky solar panels .....produce super cheap electricity right as the Sun is roasting you.........and presto Air conditioning is affordable to the masses..... Check out the latest DC direct from solar panel air conditioners....No need to be hooked up to the grid...you can camp in the wilderness with air conditioning Latest refrigerants are already being produced at a price comparable to existing refrigerants and the kicker ✓ More efficient Some A2L refrigerants have higher cooling efficiency, so that less refrigerant is needed to service an AC unit compared to R410-A. This translates to more savings. higher cooling efficiency means smaller everything to get the same cooling effect.......Enjoy PS if you air conditioner in your clunker losses refrigerant do not worry you can get your old clunker refrigerant for at least the next 10 years I know you babble ignorant stupidity all the time, but this one takes the cake. Sigh... A2L just means said refrigerant used is in the slightly flammable category but still non toxic.... Note it never said WHICH HFO refrigerant. The reason they were never chosen to begin with. Not because of efficiency. Flammability You want efficiency gains? Go with a 2 stage compressor pump, or 2 separate systems. Now by doing THIS, creates efficiency gains. MUCH higher initial cost, but higher efficiency. Probably what is happening with that LYING article. Or pure ignorance that fools like you post and think you are da shit... Efficiency is driven mostly by its compressor pump/condenser size/evaporator size, not the refrigerant. All the so called "efficiency gains" I have seen have been due to the manufacturers SHRINK the size of the compressor pump down to a TINY size making it run ALL THE TIME, therefore its range of its ability to COOL Something down is pitiful. Now one literally has to put a block of ice in your refrigerator to cool soups etc down. Old refrigerator ran for ~maybe 10 minutes an hour when warm out, new one runs for nearly the entire hour. Claims it is more efficient... Uses same Power(what a joke) Now said refrigerants temperature window can help efficiency at say, low end or high end of temperature range desired or allow a smaller evaporator/condenser to make it CHEAPER to build, but otherwise... At most we are looking at 2% or so. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 27 Ah, just looked it up on Honeywell's site... you know ... the guys who MAKE said refrigerants. Compared to old 404A, 455a is 1% higher energy density per pump cycle But is flammable and why it was not chosen to begin with as this LIMITS allowable charge size in say a major refrigeration single unit, thus your unit number must increase and total size decrease = more installation cost upfront and MAINTENANCE cost--> GENIUS move into retarded land... All because fools pretend this has Global warming "potential". Ah, but at least 455a nominally has a tiny bit less friction. So, great a fraction of a percent increase in efficiency here, but I now have to buy 4 units instead of 2 due to flammability charge limits per unit as I have heard building owners do not like burning down their operations... Another A2L is 454C... Why anyone would ever use this pile of junk I do not know as it is 91% as energy capacity dense as good ol' 404a and it has even more problems as it has MORE friction than 404a 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodman33 + 22 TJ June 27 The debate is tonight! In this corner, Corrupt old saggy balls. In this corner Crazy Corrupt old saggy balls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 27 26 minutes ago, bloodman33 said: The debate is tonight! In this corner, Corrupt old saggy balls. In this corner Crazy Corrupt old saggy balls. Ah, you have a split personality I see, but at least you admit you are BOTH corners of crazy! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, notsonice said: More likely, modern HVAC systems will become unavailable for large swaths of the population???? Luttides love to fear monger.....Do not worry, little one, you can get a HVAC system that is comparable in cost and with better cooling efficiency pesky solar panels .....produce super cheap electricity right as the Sun is roasting you.........and presto Air conditioning is affordable to the masses..... Check out the latest DC direct from solar panel air conditioners....No need to be hooked up to the grid...you can camp in the wilderness with air conditioning Latest refrigerants are already being produced at a price comparable to existing refrigerants and the kicker ✓ More efficient Some A2L refrigerants have higher cooling efficiency, so that less refrigerant is needed to service an AC unit compared to R410-A. This translates to more savings. higher cooling efficiency means smaller everything to get the same cooling effect.......Enjoy PS if you air conditioner in your clunker losses refrigerant do not worry you can get your old clunker refrigerant for at least the next 10 years Let the market decide, because the ban on refrigerants is now being packaged as a fight against greenhouse gases...a total joke, as these refrigerants are completely insignificant in terms of the greenhouse gas effect. Just trace elements. Looks like the Biden folks deserve some sort of award for their tireless capacity to make stuff up. Edited June 27 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 27 13 hours ago, TailingsPond said: You don't have Buffet's buying power. His large share purchases can actually hurt the average investor, like yourself, that is if you actually put money where your mouth is. NYSX: OXY is at $62.87. B.H. got 5 billion in warrants at $59.62. If the stock price rises much they will use the warrants and drive down the share price back towards $59.63. So go ahead and buy at $62.87... You blog for a living? My "living" is well taken care of, no need for anyone to worry. I will not need a "fund-me" site. It always startles me when acquaintances show up on those. Buffett is going into oil in a big way, prompted by positive forecasts on oil prices. The future is bright and rosy for oil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 27 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: I know you babble ignorant stupidity all the time, but this one takes the cake. Sigh... A2L just means said refrigerant used is in the slightly flammable category but still non toxic.... Note it never said WHICH HFO refrigerant. The reason they were never chosen to begin with. Not because of efficiency. Flammability You want efficiency gains? Go with a 2 stage compressor pump, or 2 separate systems. Now by doing THIS, creates efficiency gains. MUCH higher initial cost, but higher efficiency. Probably what is happening with that LYING article. Or pure ignorance that fools like you post and think you are da shit... Efficiency is driven mostly by its compressor pump/condenser size/evaporator size, not the refrigerant. All the so called "efficiency gains" I have seen have been due to the manufacturers SHRINK the size of the compressor pump down to a TINY size making it run ALL THE TIME, therefore its range of its ability to COOL Something down is pitiful. Now one literally has to put a block of ice in your refrigerator to cool soups etc down. Old refrigerator ran for ~maybe 10 minutes an hour when warm out, new one runs for nearly the entire hour. Claims it is more efficient... Uses same Power(what a joke) Now said refrigerants temperature window can help efficiency at say, low end or high end of temperature range desired or allow a smaller evaporator/condenser to make it CHEAPER to build, but otherwise... At most we are looking at 2% or so. Note it never said WHICH HFO refrigerant. ...???? who cares Probably what is happening with that LYING article??? what it is like to think everything around you is a lie??? Being Paranoid all the time must really suck for you as for refrigerants well the future is A2L for all systems...get used to it or are you still trying to get over fact solar panels/battery storage and EVs are taking over the world... for you and your fellow Luddites the next 20 years is going to be a real hard transition ..... as for your lack of a brain, some things science and modern medicine will never be able to fix......... PS How is your grand Tunnelling scheme working out.....Have you managed to sell it to anyone????? PSS the article your dimwitted sidekick posted was just plain old Luddite fear mongering.........on air conditioners...... Glad to see that you found someone that has the same mentality as you. He seems to put a lot of upvotes to your BS ......I can tell you 2 love old clunkers......guess when your clunkers air conditioners loose their charges ....you can blow on each other to cool yourselves off...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE June 27 1 minute ago, Ecocharger said: My "living" is well taken care of, no need for anyone to worry. I will not need a "fund-me" site. It always startles me when acquaintances show up on those. Buffett is going into oil in a big way, prompted by positive forecasts on oil prices. The future is bright and rosy for oil. No he went in because of market fears and the fact he got a great deal on the shares. The opposite of positive forecasts for oil. When you can buy shares for less than market price that is just good business. You try to do that and see how it goes for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 27 (edited) 13 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: No he went in because of market fears and the fact he got a great deal on the shares. The opposite of positive forecasts for oil. When you can buy shares for less than market price that is just good business. You try to do that and see how it goes for you. No, he would not go all in for just a market valuation issue, he would need to see some positive prognostications on price growth. Come to think of it, price looks good today, jumping up again. Edited June 27 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 27 12 minutes ago, notsonice said: Note it never said WHICH HFO refrigerant. ...???? who cares Probably what is happening with that LYING article??? what it is like to think everything around you is a lie??? Being Paranoid all the time must really suck for you as for refrigerants well the future is A2L for all systems...get used to it or are you still trying to get over fact solar panels/battery storage and EVs are taking over the world... for you and your fellow Luddites the next 20 years is going to be a real hard transition ..... as for your lack of a brain, some things science and modern medicine will never be able to fix......... PS How is your grand Tunnelling scheme working out.....Have you managed to sell it to anyone????? PSS the article your dimwitted sidekick posted was just plain old Luddite fear mongering.........on air conditioners...... Glad to see that you found someone that has the same mentality as you. He seems to put a lot of upvotes to your BS ......I can tell you 2 love old clunkers......guess when your clunkers air conditioners loose their charges ....you can blow on each other to cool yourselves off...... Wow, fossil fuels are 80% of energy supply and you are thinking of shutting them down? If any government attempted to do that, they would lose badly in an election, that always happens when a government becomes arrogant and ignores the welfare of the public. Mark my words, the day of reckoning is approaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE June 27 4 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Still giving us wild "projections" of a fantasized future? Do you just love all forms of pollution? Is there anything you think should be regulated? Seriously answer that question? You seem to defend all forms of pollution saying they are not a problem. What does your fantasy future look like? Defending florinated hydrocarbons is crazy. CFC's are definitely bad purely due to their persistence. All florinated compounds are being regulated. PFOS, PTFE, fluro waxes are essentially forever chemicals. Do you yearn for the days when PCBs were in everything? We can still detect them in humans and the environment despite them being phased out years ago. You would understand if you knew the chemistry involved. C-F bonds are very strong and can not be broken down well by biological processes. Same with Ar-Cl bonds. Essentially the definition of a persistent pollutant (forever chemical). 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 27 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Wow, fossil fuels are 80% of energy supply and you are thinking of shutting them down? If any government attempted to do that, they would lose badly in an election, that always happens when a government becomes arrogant and ignores the welfare of the public. Mark my words, the day of reckoning is approaching. Wow, fossil fuels are 80% of energy supply and you are thinking of shutting them down? yep overtime yes PS it is now 79% dropping a few percentage points every year Enjoy the slow burn Coal in the US........30 percent of its peak now and dropping every year....Do you like the better air quality that is the result or do you miss the good old days of driving you clunker in the smog?????? Enjoy the shutdowns of your stinky fossil fuels Nat gas ............Just a transition and now is heading down if you do not like the changes .....please cut your power lines to your trailer or better yet move to Russia...I hear Putin has a great new plan for all newcomers.......Service on the Ukrainian front Rome was not built in a day Enjoy the transition over the next 20 years Edited June 27 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE June 27 10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: No, he would not go all in for just a market valuation issue, he would need to see some positive prognostications on price growth. Come to think of it, price looks good today, jumping up again. Read the article, it straight out used the phrase "market fears." He does not need share price growth. The share pays a dividend, he can hold long and not care about share price. Share price only matters if you sell. I showed you already he has options for more shares at below market price. If the share price rises he will exercise that option and drive the price back down. B.H. also enjoys the fact that other investors follow them and the valuation gets a big buffett bump that is not based on fundamentals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,008 GE June 27 19 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Mark my words, the day of reckoning is approaching. Can you put a date on that? Hard to "mark your words" if you don't actually make a claim. What will happen and when? Speak up! I remember your last failed prediction ($100+ oil by new years). Are you sure you want us to mark your words? What happened to Eyes shut anyways? He was king of "any day now." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 27 1 hour ago, notsonice said: Note it never said WHICH HFO refrigerant. ...???? who cares Probably what is happening with that LYING article??? what it is like to think everything around you is a lie??? Being Paranoid all the time must really suck for you as for refrigerants well the future is A2L for all systems...get used to it or are you still trying to get over fact solar panels/battery storage and EVs are taking over the world... for you and your fellow Luddites the next 20 years is going to be a real hard transition ..... as for your lack of a brain, some things science and modern medicine will never be able to fix......... PS How is your grand Tunnelling scheme working out.....Have you managed to sell it to anyone????? PSS the article your dimwitted sidekick posted was just plain old Luddite fear mongering.........on air conditioners...... Glad to see that you found someone that has the same mentality as you. He seems to put a lot of upvotes to your BS ......I can tell you 2 love old clunkers......guess when your clunkers air conditioners loose their charges ....you can blow on each other to cool yourselves off...... Ah, PROUDLY screaming you are ignorant of basic physics and reading comprehension. Clown world... A2 refrigerants are a massive step BACKWARDS for purely BS "global warming potential"(not fact) 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodman33 + 22 TJ June 28 Well that debate was amazing. Biden hit it out of the park! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 28 4 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Do you just love all forms of pollution? Is there anything you think should be regulated? Seriously answer that question? You seem to defend all forms of pollution saying they are not a problem. What does your fantasy future look like? Defending florinated hydrocarbons is crazy. CFC's are definitely bad purely due to their persistence. All florinated compounds are being regulated. PFOS, PTFE, fluro waxes are essentially forever chemicals. Do you yearn for the days when PCBs were in everything? We can still detect them in humans and the environment despite them being phased out years ago. You would understand if you knew the chemistry involved. C-F bonds are very strong and can not be broken down well by biological processes. Same with Ar-Cl bonds. Essentially the definition of a persistent pollutant (forever chemical). You are wandering off topic again, no surprise. The question I posed to you and which you refused to answer (again, no surprise) is do you want to shut down 80% of the energy supply and shut down the air conditioning industry which is keeping the majority of the world's populations from dying and suffering from extremes in climate? No answer? None, I guess next election the people will answer those questions. Here was the link to the quote you were complaining about, hope you enjoy reading it. Was the "ozone scare" just a hoax? https://mises.org/mises-daily/ozone-scare-retrospective Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 28 4 hours ago, notsonice said: Wow, fossil fuels are 80% of energy supply and you are thinking of shutting them down? yep overtime yes PS it is now 79% dropping a few percentage points every year Enjoy the slow burn Coal in the US........30 percent of its peak now and dropping every year....Do you like the better air quality that is the result or do you miss the good old days of driving you clunker in the smog?????? Enjoy the shutdowns of your stinky fossil fuels Nat gas ............Just a transition and now is heading down if you do not like the changes .....please cut your power lines to your trailer or better yet move to Russia...I hear Putin has a great new plan for all newcomers.......Service on the Ukrainian front Rome was not built in a day Enjoy the transition over the next 20 years Your answer is a mile short of any science...no surprise. When 80% of the energy supply is shut down, the world will descend into chaos and you can join the struggle for existence or fall by the wayside...enjoy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Read the article, it straight out used the phrase "market fears." He does not need share price growth. The share pays a dividend, he can hold long and not care about share price. Share price only matters if you sell. I showed you already he has options for more shares at below market price. If the share price rises he will exercise that option and drive the price back down. B.H. also enjoys the fact that other investors follow them and the valuation gets a big buffett bump that is not based on fundamentals. Long term strategy only works if the industry is healthy and gets good prices for its product, no getting around that. I should be charging you for my evaluation here, instead you get a freebie. A word to the wise. Edited June 28 by Ecocharger 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Can you put a date on that? Hard to "mark your words" if you don't actually make a claim. What will happen and when? Speak up! I remember your last failed prediction ($100+ oil by new years). Are you sure you want us to mark your words? What happened to Eyes shut anyways? He was king of "any day now." Yes, predictions by experts are looking at the 90s levels for oil this year, I gave you the link above. The day of reckoning will arrive for the Climate Panic brigade very soon with governments running out of money, the failed understandings of how global warming works, the ridiculous attempts to shut down the energy supply of the world...if these guys do not get turfed out of office next election, the world will descend into chaos. Edited June 28 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, bloodman33 said: Well that debate was amazing. Biden hit it out of the park! Haha! You mean, he got lost. https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/first-presidential-debate-2024-trump-biden/ "Mr. Biden stumbled through many of his answers early on in the debate and sounded like he was losing his voice... he often lost his train of thought and struggled to communicate his positions on a variety of issues. His performance alarmed many of his fellow Democrats. "I've never seen a freakout like this," one House Democrat told CBS News, referring to reaction among party lawmakers." Trump sounded energetic in comparison..." Edited June 28 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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