Electric cars may make driving too expensive for middle classes, warns Vauxhall chief

[hemanthaa@mail.com + 64]

Please read it here:

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,491]

7 hours ago, hemanthaa@mail.com said:

Please read it here:

 

paywall

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:54 AM, hemanthaa@mail.com said:

Please read it here:

 

I would argue Vauxhall is miscalculating several things:
1) The value of an EV's lower fuel costs.
2) The value of an EV's reduced maintenance costs.
3) The value of an EV's greater longevity.
4) The pace of EV innovation and cost reduction.

Although most people base their decisions on purchase price, it is not a relevant metric for determining affordability. Total Cost of Ownership fills that role. When the option for cheap-to-buy-but-expensive-to-operate vehicles is removed, consumers will finally consider EVs - and discover that they could have been saving money all along.

 

[RichieRich216 + 454]

Never get general middle class to buy this shit! It’s the only way for government to spend the 60 BILLION for 500K charging stations….

[turbguy + 1,553]

Don't ignore the clear fact that a large population does not BUY a vehicle these days.

There are other financial "paths" to personal vehicle usage.

Edited May 31, 2021 by turbguy

[Ronald Saxon 0]

Ben franklin spectacles: There is an argument to be had and first and foremost, if not for the either coal or natural gas companies producing power for electric or even water from dams, the amount of electric power to re-charge these electric cars, how are they expecting to charge the vehicles? Not by wind turbines or solar panels, that would take forever. Then there is the burden on the grid of a neighborhood with just one (1) of these cars. I'm not totally against the electric car, as I have 21years as an electric forklift technician. So let me explain something to you that eletromotive innovators are not telling you.  to charge a battery, any battery, for every hour on charge, you must allow for an hour of cool down, or damage to the battery is inevitable, they won't tell you that, they just want to sell you a new battery..lol, lower end for a 6tnc battery in 2004 was $8000, and that is a 36volt 750amp 8hr discharge rate sulfuric battery. These battery can be repaired by someone like me, whom at the time was charging in 2004, $120hr from portal to portal, minimum of 1 hour. This job will take about 3 hours to complete....if one cell is bad. Then there is the matter of the drive motor, a compound wound motor, in a crown  reach truck the drive motor is $5000+, but first it must be diagnosed by a technician making $120hr in 2004 which I'm sure is a lot more now. That diagnosis has to be done by the technician because you do not have the code to get into the drive computer to check it yourself, and there is a charge to get into the computer. Once every thing is checked and the encoder is determined not to be the problem nor the SCR'S, then the removal of the motor can take place. Replacing the motor is easy, calibration of same motor, well is time consuming, and can be very time consuming. Hopefully 6hrs later you can have our vehicle back. A bit of advise from a technician: Electric  vehicles either  for industrial or personal use are made to breakdown, therefore bringing in more money for the manufacturer because they are all proprietary parts. FACT IS; they make more money on repair of these electric viehicles then they sell them for over time. 

[Dupuy Michael 0]

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I have lost 150,000$ in Bitcoins before and Mr Jim helped me recovered it all back . 

 

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[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/30/2021 at 3:53 PM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

I would argue Vauxhall is miscalculating several things:
1) The value of an EV's lower fuel costs.
2) The value of an EV's reduced maintenance costs.
3) The value of an EV's greater longevity.
4) The pace of EV innovation and cost reduction.

Although most people base their decisions on purchase price, it is not a relevant metric for determining affordability. Total Cost of Ownership fills that role. When the option for cheap-to-buy-but-expensive-to-operate vehicles is removed, consumers will finally consider EVs - and discover that they could have been saving money all along.

 

You make some good points but other considerations are:

1. People tend to recoil from "sticker shock".

2. Excess money spent on expensive vehicles could have been invested.

3. Insurance will be much higher on an expensive vehicle

4. Annual registration will likely be much higher in many states.

5. Expensive vehicles are a much smaller percentage than those near the average. The average price is already $40,857 for 2021 https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2021-02-15-Average-New-Vehicle-Prices-Continue-to-Surpass-40-000-Up-More-Than-5-in-January-2021-According-to-Kelley-Blue-Book

6. Many car buyers like to lease or frequently replace their vehicles. That is especially true of corporations.

7. The best use of electric vehicles would be for utilitarian use for those who DO want to save money over the long haul, not for flashy and expensive cars. Of course that is not the group being targeted in America but there are a few lower priced and lower range vehicles. 

We have a Mitsubishi Mirage that gets 40 mpg and sells for slightly over $14,000. It is now a third car for us but is fun to use around town. It has a nine gallon tank which surpasses the range of all but the most expensive electric vehicles. We also have a minivan and a twelve seat Nissan 3500 van. 

https://insideevs.com/news/490438/electric-car-price-comparison-us-20210224/

Also see ACTUAL PRICES online. 

https://www.miniofglencoe.com/all-inventory/

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html

https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-5 Actual starting price estimated to be $45,000. 

Worldwide inexpensive electric vehicles https://fossbytes.com/cheapest-electric-cars/

Edited June 4, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[RichieRich216 + 454]

At the end of the day EV Companies are betting on Government intervention to get sun structure in place! Just like pedophile Joe now offering a compromise and personal and corporate taxes to get infrastructure bill passed which includes 50+ billion for 500,000 EV charging stations. The largest Companies can’t and won’t foot the bill, Case in point, see what Google did to City of Pittsburgh with plan to wire entire city with high speed internet, It FAILED with the biggest THUD and they upped and left leaving behind a mess of cut up road crossings and the cable popping up out of the shoulder of the roads…..

[Eric Gagen + 713]

To add a bit to what @ronwagn said, 'total cost of ownership is all fine and dandy if you have the cash for the up front expense NOW but the numbers get flipped around if you have to finance the costs.  

Another factor is that many people are wildly over optimistic about the future, and short sighted about future costs.  Repairs later on?  No worries - I don't think it will happen to me - and if it does, I'll have a better job making twice as much money by then! 

The final factor is that for a large majority of the the math to figure out total value is literally too difficult to understand.  They will simply buy the thing that costs the least now, or has the lowest monthly payment.  This sort of mentality applies to some otherwise seemingly well educated and informed people who really really cannot do the math - not for love or money.  The fortunate ones marry and trust someone who can, but for a lot of folks it's simply beyond them. They will never 'appreciate' a high up front cost but cheap to own product because they can't understand the math, or keep all the data in their heads at once to be able to 'see' the big picture.  These are the same people who buy a starbucks coffee every day, or buy apple slices instead of whole apples at the supermarket, or who get the fancy drinks at the bar instead of learning how to mix their own at home, or pay a late fee on their bill because they 'forgot to pay' - in other words these are average people, and they will not get it.  

 

The silver lining here is that most folks buy used cars, and it's the wealthy (who tend to be more farsighted, or at least take better advice) who make the decisions on new car purchase.  

Edited June 4, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[RichieRich216 + 454]

I AGREE, Have been saying this since the big push to go EV, It’s going to cost BILLIONS in infrastructure that the EV manufacturers are counting on the U.S. Government to SUBSIDIZE! Average Americans won’t go for it, No GANGS might love idea so Drive bye shootings will be easier….

[specinho + 475]

eerrrr.......  pardon me..... why is this type of electric car not popular?

* hint: it is a Golf cart........ Cost $4000 to 5000?

 

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,491]

56 minutes ago, specinho said:

eerrrr.......  pardon me..... why is this type of electric car not popular?

* hint: it is a Golf cart........ Cost $4000 to 5000?

 

 

 

Meet the best selling EV on the planet. Cost $4000 to 5000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV

Edited June 5, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 hours ago, specinho said:

eerrrr.......  pardon me..... why is this type of electric car not popular?

* hint: it is a Golf cart........ Cost $4000 to 5000?

 

 

 

They are popular where they are allowed. My brother owns one and many do in his community. They should be allowed in any area with low traffic. We have not even given them a chance in most areas. They should not be allowed on unsafe roads except to cross. Unsafe meaning high speed or high traffic unless they are fast enough and meet safety standards. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

8 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Meet the best selling EV on the planet. Cost $4000 to 5000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV

I think it should be sold here, but if for highways it should meet safety standards. Slow drivers, driving the minimum speed, are really not safe in my opinion. It should be used for suburbs and crossing highways. If it can maintain a sixty miles per hour speed, that would be ok on highways, but not freeways. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Check out the Kandi, which IS available for under $13,000 with rebate in Colorado. It drives 69 mph. It is very popular. https://www.kandiamerica.com/NEV-K27/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrVGTzM81L8&t=917s

Deeper review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxqXHyOLriY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandi_Technologies

https://www.thedrive.com/news/35325/meet-the-cheapest-new-electric-car-in-america

Edited June 5, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:00 PM, RichieRich216 said:

Never get general middle class to buy this shit! It’s the only way for government to spend the 60 BILLION for 500K charging stations….

The Kandi base model I noted is only a good buy because of a $7,500 federal rebate and possible state rebate.

It is only for short trips. If it was not partially paid for by taxpayers it would not compare to my $14,500 Mitsubishi Mirage which gets 40 mpg. and has a great warranty. It is usable for long trips but not a preference unless gasoline prices go nuts. 

[RichieRich216 + 454]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:20 PM, ronwagn said:

I think it should be sold here, but if for highways it should meet safety standards. Slow drivers, driving the minimum speed, are really not safe in my opinion. It should be used for suburbs and crossing highways. If it can maintain a sixty miles per hour speed, that would be ok on highways, but not freeways. 

GREAT, When you get T Boned going through an intersection, They can just bury you in the golf cart..

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

On 5/30/2021 at 1:53 PM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

I would argue Vauxhall is miscalculating several things:
1) The value of an EV's lower fuel costs.
2) The value of an EV's reduced maintenance costs.
3) The value of an EV's greater longevity.
4) The pace of EV innovation and cost reduction.

Although most people base their decisions on purchase price, it is not a relevant metric for determining affordability. Total Cost of Ownership fills that role. When the option for cheap-to-buy-but-expensive-to-operate vehicles is removed, consumers will finally consider EVs - and discover that they could have been saving money all along.

 

The initial cost of a car is a truly major consideration for a whole lot of people. That's why so many people purchase a used car. For decades, the most massive transfer of wealth to the poor in the US was the used car market. Wealthier folks bought new every two years, and the two-year-old used cars cost less than half the price of a new car. While things have changed over the years, this wealth transfer has not completely disappeared. The problem of course is that a used car is statistically less reliable than a new car, so the poor are statistically more likely to pay more for maintenance and gasoline.

Eventually, there will be used EVs on the market in large numbers, and the less wealthy will be able to buy them. The big question is how well the batteries will hold up.

[Boat + 1,325]

At one time California had a huge demand for electricity while the sun was up. Now there is an excess of electricity while the sun is up. That same success will be replicated wherever the sun is good. That will continue to kill coal. So let’s cheer our success so far and the success to come. Renewables will continue to get cheaper allowing more money for storage. This reality will chip away at market share. 
within 35 years most of wind and solar will have been replaced with a new high tech much more efficient product along with the storage systems going in now. Attrition is renewables friend and cleaner electricity the bonus. 
Going in circles in the short term ain’t gonna speed up or slow down the transition. You build the best widget, you’ll get plenty of cash going green.

Cars are no different. Every few thousand bucks cheaper for an electric car will bring more sales. Tens of billions are chasing the next battery breakthrough. Who will do it and how fast is anybody’s guess. Musk has the jump in the short term and we’ll see over the next 3 years the impact of their new batteries on car prices. The next leap in transportation tech? Who knows. 
Europe and California will be the canary zones with their mandates. I am skeptical but willing to be hopeful tech moves fast enough for them to work.

Another Musk potential advantage are these huge giga presses injection molding the front and back of cars. Just how much can that drive down the price of a build. Once again we’ll have a much better idea in a couple of years. 
 

I have all my products delivered. No need for a car. It’s about a 10% premium on groceries and Amazon crap. Can a robo unit deliver cheaper and eliminate the driver? Fun questions for the fairly short turn future. But even three years ago I had no idea I could save thousands having about 95% of my purchases delivered. A big chunk of my life went to keeping a car going. I don’t miss it.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

16 minutes ago, Boat said:

At one time California had a huge demand for electricity while the sun was up. Now there is an excess of electricity while the sun is up. That same success will be replicated wherever the sun is good.

There is a strong correlation between high solar PV output and high demand for air conditioning, shifted by two or three hours. This is especially true in the US southwest and California. Where air conditioning drives the worst-case yearly peak demand, solar+batteries are the ideal choice for new capacity. For places like Texas that potentially have a worst-case peak winter demand in additions to their worst-case summer demand, you will a longer-term energy store than (current) batteries can cost-effectively provide.

(I am not debating whether or net we need to reduce CO2 emission here. I am examining the consequences.) If the world needs to reduce anthropogenic CO2 production, then we need to quit using natural gas, and we need to quit using petroleum. To a crude first approximation, we will need about the same amount of electricity to replace NG as we already produce, and we will need about the same amount of electricity to replace oil as we already produce, so we will need to triple the amount of electricity we produce today. Also to a crude first approximation, we may be able to cost-effectively add fully-distributed solar+battery to meet maybe half of that new demand. That leaves the other half of of the new demand to be met by new utility-scale generation and storage of some sort.

[RichieRich216 + 454]

Finally an article that’s true….

[turbguy + 1,553]

23 hours ago, ronwagn said:

The Kandi base model I noted is only a good buy because of a $7,500 federal rebate and possible state rebate.

It is only for short trips. If it was not partially paid for by taxpayers it would not compare to my $14,500 Mitsubishi Mirage which gets 40 mpg. and has a great warranty. It is usable for long trips but not a preference unless gasoline prices go nuts. 

Hard to beat my Harley Sportster that gets 57 MPG, and is REALLY fun to drive (actually RIDE)!

The heater sucks, though...

Edited June 7, 2021 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,553]

20 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

GREAT, When you get T Boned going through an intersection, They can just bury you in the golf cart..

I recall Volkswagon owners claiming: 

"IF A FAN BELT BREAKS, WE CAN USE RUBBER BANDS"!

My response:

"If you hit a dog, you lose".

[ronwagn + 6,290]

23 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

GREAT, When you get T Boned going through an intersection, They can just bury you in the golf cart..

How about pedestrians, bicycles, motor scooters, motorcycles, etc. Should we ban them from crossing highways too?