turbguy

And now, hybrid electric locomotives...

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5 hours ago, turbguy said:

It does! Downhill grades soaking up all the dynamic breaking energy from it and the other diesels in a trainset. The proof of concept was a complete success. Next step is to build a prototype with more storage and then go into production. It turns diesel locomotive trainsets into hybrids.

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It's extremely logical - nearly all existing locomotives are diesel electric already - adding batteries to them to save/store energy on an as needed basis when it's conventien was obvious and logical - I only wonder why it took so long to do it.  It's an obvious win when you realize how much regenerative braking locomotives already do.  It might even save weight and space by reducing the need for cooling systems during brake regeneration.  

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4 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

It's extremely logical - nearly all existing locomotives are diesel electric already - adding batteries to them to save/store energy on an as needed basis when it's conventien was obvious and logical - I only wonder why it took so long to do it.  It's an obvious win when you realize how much regenerative braking locomotives already do.  It might even save weight and space by reducing the need for cooling systems during brake regeneration.  

They need to charge them on the run IE on the high traffic sections of rall with Overhead catenary as they once had. Then the locos can run anywhere (on sections that are low traffic, sidings etc) without having 100 percent dedicated overhead

Edited by notsonice
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20 hours ago, notsonice said:

They need to charge them on the run IE on the high traffic sections of rall with Overhead catenary as they once had. Then the locos can run anywhere (on sections that are low traffic, sidings etc) without having 100 percent dedicated overhead

That is not how they work at all.  They work exactly like any other hybrid vehicle - the internal combustion prime mover (in this case a diesel engine) charges the battery during times when the demand for it's power is less than the optimum usage for best fuel economy, but the battery isn't fully charged, and the battery is also charged via regenerative braking.  This way the diesel engine and generator set are always operating at maximum fuel and electrical efficiency, rather than at whatever level is required for power at that moment, and the battery adds power (or absorbs it) when the power required for operating the locomotive is different from that power level.  What you are describing is a fully electric locomotive which can also operate 'off grid' for short periods because it has a battery system.  

Edited by Eric Gagen
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4 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

That is not how they work at all.  They work exactly like any other hybrid vehicle - the internal combustion prime mover (in this case a diesel engine) charges the battery during times when the demand for it's power is less than the optimum usage for best fuel economy, but the battery isn't fully charged, and the battery is also charged via regenerative braking.  This way the diesel engine and generator set are always operating at maximum fuel and electrical efficiency, rather than at whatever level is required for power at that moment, and the battery adds power (or absorbs it) when the power required for operating the locomotive is different from that power level.  What you are describing is a fully electric locomotive which can also operate 'off grid' for short periods because it has a battery system.  

The FLX Drive unit pictured above does not have a diesel engine, only batteries. It can potentially operate as you describe but only through the electrical connection with diesel units in the trainset. This proof of concept though only used regenerative breaking.

Simple to splice it into the dynamic braking output in existing engines but operating as you describe will require a lot more dev and would likely only be available in the future in new diesel units.

Edited by Jay McKinsey
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On 5/24/2021 at 2:53 PM, turbguy said:

Exactly - mind you electrification of commuter trains was a major step in clearing urban skies in those cities where train networks had been built. Extending that network to stuff like electric trams powered through overhead lines are about the only way the morning commute will be substantially electrified - fantasies about electric cars aside. But none of that involves batteries .. The most they claim for this battery-powered hybrid train is that it cuts fuel consumption by about 11 per cent.. they don't say how much additional capital investment is required or even if fuel is the major cost in trains (probably it isn't) - but it seems like a lot of mining of rare earths and stuff for not much result  

 

On 5/24/2021 at 8:17 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

It does! Downhill grades soaking up all the dynamic breaking energy from it and the other diesels in a trainset. The proof of concept was a complete success. Next step is to build a prototype with more storage and then go into production. It turns diesel locomotive trainsets into hybrids.

Jay - please try to remember that those who come on this site are, on average, technically literate. Freight trains are required to pull serious loads, and they are, already an emissions-efficient way to move goods around. If trucks ever go hybrid in large numbers maybe then worry about trains. 

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It’s called a train, How much more weight are they willing to add to go green and lose in ability to pull paying freight! Soooo tired of this green bullshit! 

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7 hours ago, markslawson said:

Exactly - mind you electrification of commuter trains was a major step in clearing urban skies in those cities where train networks had been built. Extending that network to stuff like electric trams powered through overhead lines are about the only way the morning commute will be substantially electrified - fantasies about electric cars aside. But none of that involves batteries .. The most they claim for this battery-powered hybrid train is that it cuts fuel consumption by about 11 per cent.. they don't say how much additional capital investment is required or even if fuel is the major cost in trains (probably it isn't) - but it seems like a lot of mining of rare earths and stuff for not much result  

 

Jay - please try to remember that those who come on this site are, on average, technically literate. Freight trains are required to pull serious loads, and they are, already an emissions-efficient way to move goods around. If trucks ever go hybrid in large numbers maybe then worry about trains. 

HaHa, oh Mark, you are in such denial.  The unit is 4400hp, as powerful as any standard locomotive. 11% was just the savings for the first test of the low storage proof of concept. The production units will provide 30% savings.

Wabtec is the largest locomotive manufacturer in the world and BNSF is one of our biggest railroads.

With oil up their fuel costs will be well over 600 this quarter. BNSF:

image.png.d5c9af1ad179cf9a74010951aa21f735.png 

The cost of the units will no doubt start on the high side and then they will decrease over time and they will spread across the line. 30% fuel saving will go a long way toward making it happen.

Wabtec Corporation (NYSE: WAB) announced today a rail industry first as its FLXdrive battery-electric locomotive delivered more than an 11-percent average reduction in fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions for an entire train. It is the equivalent of over 6,200 gallons of diesel fuel saved and approximately 69 tons of CO2 emissions reduced.

These outcomes are the result of a three-month pilot with BNSF Railway, the largest railroad in the U.S., where the FLXdrive, the world’s first 100-percent battery locomotive, was put to the test in revenue service across more than 13,320 miles of hilly terrain in San Joaquin Valley, California – a territory surrounded by mountains.

Wabtec’s next step is to build a second-generation locomotive with a battery capacity of more than 6 megawatt hours – a level of energy that can reduce a locomotive consist’s fuel consumption and carbon emissions by up to 30 percent, even while hauling several thousand tons of freight in a mile-long train. A fleet of second-generation FLXdrives will be commercialized and could enter supply chain routes in the next few years.

“The FLXdrive battery-electric locomotive is a defining moment for freight rail and will accelerate the industry toward low- to zero-emission locomotives,” said Eric Gebhardt, Wabtec Chief Technology Officer. “It builds upon the rail industry’s position as the most efficient and sustainable mode of transportation. Building on our long history of pioneering train energy management technologies, this demonstration of coupling 2.4 megawatt hours of battery storage into the mix fully validated our assumptions for the potential for this next generation technology to further drive efficiencies and greenhouse gas reductions. At more than 6 megawatt hours, Wabtec’s next version of FLXdrive technology will have an opportunity to reduce fuel consumption and emissions by up to 30 percent – putting the industry on the cusp of a once-in-a-generation improvement in energy savings and emission reductions.” https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210517005089/en/Wabtec’s-All-Battery-Locomotive-FLXdrive-Lowers-Freight-Train’s-Fuel-Consumption-by-More-Than-11-Percent-in-California-Pilot

 

 

Edited by Jay McKinsey
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7 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

That is not how they work at all.  They work exactly like any other hybrid vehicle - the internal combustion prime mover (in this case a diesel engine) charges the battery during times when the demand for it's power is less than the optimum usage for best fuel economy, but the battery isn't fully charged, and the battery is also charged via regenerative braking.  This way the diesel engine and generator set are always operating at maximum fuel and electrical efficiency, rather than at whatever level is required for power at that moment, and the battery adds power (or absorbs it) when the power required for operating the locomotive is different from that power level.  What you are describing is a fully electric locomotive which can also operate 'off grid' for short periods because it has a battery system.  

An electric locomotive with its pantographs down

 

how they used to work....The Milwaukee road was mostly electrified......A Little Joe at Deer Lodge, Montana in October 1974 after the end of electrified operation..Once again you can do overhead on the busy sections to charge the batteries and run on the un- electrified sections... sidings, low traffic track etc on battery. How much in batteries.... Well a fully loaded train will run 18,000 tons so adding on 3 or 4 cars of batteries (300 tons to 400 tons) will not add much weight to the train

How much does a Tesla Model 3 battery weight?
1,060 pounds with a density  of 150 Wh/kg. or 463 kg or
 
69 kwh for 463 kg of battery
 
and
 
The specific energy consumption of the trains worldwide amounts to about 150 kJ/pkm (kilojoule per passenger kilometre) and 150 kJ/tkm (kilojoule per tonne kilometre) (ca. 4.2 kWh/100 pkm and ....
 
4.2 kWh/100 tkm
 
from those 2 one can figure out how much battery storage is needed per tonkm
 
in other words for an 18000 ton train you need 756 kw per km or for a 100 km trip you need 75,600 kwh or approximately 50,000 kg of battery or a 50 ton battery You can load 100 tons on a standard rail car So 4 rail cars full of battery will get you 800km or around 500 miles on a charge. Add in on the run charging and your train never has to stop for a charge.
 
 

 

Edited by notsonice
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26 minutes ago, RichieRich216 said:

It’s called a train, How much more weight are they willing to add to go green and lose in ability to pull paying freight! Soooo tired of this green bullshit! 

It weighs 430,000 pounds. The same as any standard locomotive.

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1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Exactly - mind you electrification of commuter trains was a major step in clearing urban skies in those cities where train networks had been built. Extending that network to stuff like electric trams powered through overhead lines are about the only way the morning commute will be substantially electrified - fantasies about electric cars aside. But none of that involves batteries .. The most they claim for this battery-powered hybrid train is that it cuts fuel consumption by about 11 per cent.. they don't say how much additional capital investment is required or even if fuel is the major cost in trains (probably it isn't) - but it seems like a lot of mining of rare earths and stuff for not much result  

 

Jay - please try to remember that those who come on this site are, on average, technically literate. Freight trains are required to pull serious loads, and they are, already an emissions-efficient way to move goods around. If trucks ever go hybrid in large numbers maybe then worry about trains. 

You must admit it would be a very strange paradox to observe electrified locomotive's pulling mile's of oil and coal cars. 

Edited by Eyes Wide Open
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14 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It weighs 430,000 pounds. The same as any standard locomotive.

Completely stupid! If you’re going to have extra weight due to batteries, your payable cargo suffers! I own a number of H2’s, The new Hummer EV out weighs the original H1 military version built for consumers! What your saying is complete bullshit and you should know better! Not that I would expect you too! 

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image.png.12353393df653d00471d14c80f16b82d.png

 

it is all in the cost of dollars per kw. Will it fall below 100 dollars per KW in the next few years? if it does the battery age will decimate the oil age

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4 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

Completely stupid! If you’re going to have extra weight due to batteries, your payable cargo suffers! I own a number of H2’s, The new Hummer EV out weighs the original H1 military version built for consumers! What your saying is complete bullshit and you should know better! Not that I would expect you too! 

The manufacturer says you are wrong, exactly what I expect of you:

standard engine weight https://www.wabteccorp.com/locomotive/heavy-haul-locomotives/et44ac-locomotive

image.thumb.png.5c7a1adbf28369489ca66e7e1814f1b8.png

 

FLX weight https://www.wabteccorp.com/locomotive/alternative-fuel-locomotives/flxdrive

image.thumb.png.6c8f56a8b18953c37f09e0ef9e81c6ae.png

Edited by Jay McKinsey

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22 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The FLX Drive unit pictured above does not have a diesel engine, only batteries. It can potentially operate as you describe but only through the electrical connection with diesel units in the trainset. This proof of concept though only used regenerative breaking.

Simple to splice it into the dynamic braking output in existing engines but operating as you describe will require a lot more dev and would likely only be available in the future in new diesel units.

@Jay McKinsey and @notsonice I apologize - I read the Wabtech 'news flier' and misunderstood what they were trying to say.  I went to their website and looked up the specifications on the FLX locomotive and it is all electric.  my apologies.

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5 hours ago, RichieRich216 said:

Completely stupid! If you’re going to have extra weight due to batteries, your payable cargo suffers! I own a number of H2’s, The new Hummer EV out weighs the original H1 military version built for consumers! What your saying is complete bullshit and you should know better! Not that I would expect you too! 

@RichieRich216 Locomotives don't work like over the road vehicles.  The heavier the locomotive is the better it works. The more weight there is on the drive wheels increases the factor of adhesion for the locomotive allowing it to pull a heavier train without wheel slip.  The history of rail locomotives has been one of a series of engineering tricks to get ever increasing weight on the drive wheels within the limits of the track capability to bear it, and the ability of maintenance and repair equipment to operate with them.  The weight of the locomotive is very small compared to the weight of the train of cars, and cargo, so it's 'self weight' is insignificant as a factor in the total power required to move the train. 

Edited by Eric Gagen
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1 hour ago, notsonice said:

image.png.12353393df653d00471d14c80f16b82d.png

 

it is all in the cost of dollars per kw. Will it fall below 100 dollars per KW in the next few years? if it does the battery age will dyecimate the oil age

Over taxation may cause hyperinfloation and nothing will end up getting built. It is best to stick with a chaneover rate that is realistic and cost effective, not pie in sky optimism. 

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12 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

@RichieRich216 Locomotives don't work like over the road vehicles.  The heavier the locomotive is the better it works. The more weight there is on the drive wheels increases the factor of adhesion for the locomotive allowing it to pull a heavier train without wheel slip.  The history of rail locomotives has been one of a series of engineering tricks to get ever increasing weight on the drive wheels within the limits of the track capability to bear it, and the ability of maintenance and repair equipment to operate with them.  The weight of the locomotive is very small compared to the weight of the train of cars, and cargo, so it's 'self weight' is insignificant as a factor in the total power required to move the train. 

Like this...

https://www.up.com/heritage/steam/4014/index.htm

 

 

Clipboard01.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It would be super cool to see the FLX running with 4014 to provide the dynamic braking,

Ha! I was thinking about this too.  It would be a great PR move for Union Pacific - The Old and the New in harmony.  They could incorporate it in their 'Union Pacific Experience' which travels with 4014;  https://www.up.com/heritage/experience-up/index.htm and take it around the country.   

 

And it's a perfect point to the weight discussion - a big boy weighs 600 tons, and could pull ~ 10,000 tons solo.  Modern locomotives are 'only' around 200 tons but can be worked in teams, which turns out to be easier to do now that  electronic controls are available, and can pull up to 15,000 tons in a team of 4-6.  

Edited by Eric Gagen

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3 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The manufacturer says you are wrong, exactly what I expect of you:

standard engine weight https://www.wabteccorp.com/locomotive/heavy-haul-locomotives/et44ac-locomotive

image.thumb.png.5c7a1adbf28369489ca66e7e1814f1b8.png

 

FLX weight https://www.wabteccorp.com/locomotive/alternative-fuel-locomotives/flxdrive

image.thumb.png.6c8f56a8b18953c37f09e0ef9e81c6ae.png

Same manufacturer, say like a certain German manufacturer that said deisal emissions were at a set limit? YA…

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2 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

@RichieRich216 Locomotives don't work like over the road vehicles.  The heavier the locomotive is the better it works. The more weight there is on the drive wheels increases the factor of adhesion for the locomotive allowing it to pull a heavier train without wheel slip.  The history of rail locomotives has been one of a series of engineering tricks to get ever increasing weight on the drive wheels within the limits of the track capability to bear it, and the ability of maintenance and repair equipment to operate with them.  The weight of the locomotive is very small compared to the weight of the train of cars, and cargo, so it's 'self weight' is insignificant as a factor in the total power required to move the train. 

Kinda forgetting about the decades old track and support under it I’m guessing? Oh well the democrats can suggest spending 60 Billion for upgrade, like the 500 thousand EV charging stations they want WE THE PEOPLE to contribute to! Kinda like Obama’s Cash For Klunkers, LMFAO

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23 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

HaHa, oh Mark, you are in such denial.  The unit is 4400hp, as powerful as any standard locomotive. 11% was just the savings for the first test of the low storage proof of concept. The production units will provide 30% savings.

Wabtec is the largest locomotive manufacturer in the world and BNSF is one of our biggest railroads.

With oil up their fuel costs will be well over 600 this quarter. BNSF:

Jay - look, again, you don't seem to realise I spent a good part of my adult life looking at profit and loss statements and balance sheets. Now look at this full year accounting of costs for BNSF... fuel comes in fourth. But it wasn't even the point I was making about costs.. the point was not that fuel is an expense but whether the additional expenditure on this vastly more complicated train, not to mention the vast increases in use of scarce rare earths and the like, is worth the saving in fuel. Remember you have to update the whole fleet to get this 10-30 per cent saving on the total fuel bill listed, if it can be achieved. Rather than blindly support anything electric, maybe it might be better to take a step back and ask some hard questions. At least this time your argument made marginally more sense than usual. Leave it with you.   

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(edited)

So, How much do locomotives cost? A diesel locomotive could cost from $500,000-$2 million. While an electric locomotive could cost more than $6 million. Price depends on whether it is powered by AC or DC traction, how much horsepower it has, or what electronics it is equipped with.

I cannot help but think out loud here....4/5 times the investment and the same rate of return? The answer must lie in accelerated depreciation...Fuel costs are so low they offset the investment capitalization..perhaps a negative interest rate supplemented by unclesam? Perhaps transport cost being raised by a factor or four...after all it is green intensive.

I have always been a one to repurpose...a very trendy word these days. 

Does Rebuilding Locomotives Beat Buying New?

 

https://www.railwayage.com/mechanical/locomotives/does-rebuilding-locomotives-beat-buying-new/

 

Edited by Eyes Wide Open

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