Texas Power Outage Danger Until June 18th. Texans told to conserve energy!

[Eric Gagen + 713]

9 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Wow!

They must need a lot of steam for 'something' locally.

Does Berkeley get THAT cold?

 

It's providing steam heat for all the buildings on the whole campus of 1,232 acres with - dozens (maybe hundreds?) of multistory buildings, most of which were constructed in the 19th century, and their insulation consists of - uh - uh - uh - stone blocks maybe? The undergraduate enrollment runs around 30,000 students, there are another 12,000 grad students, several thousand faculty, and then there are the 'off campus' buildings and facilities that aren't included as part of the 1,232 acres, such as the publishing facility, the hospital, the football stadium, the Olympic swimming pools (also heated) the high rise residential dorms, the campus police department, and probably some major ones I am forgetting, and then it sells power to the grid.  The S.F bay area doesn't get that cold, but it's not exactly warm either - most days long pants, thick socks, sturdy shoes and sweatshirts are normal outdoor clothing even during the heat of the day. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194]

2 hours ago, nsdp said:

I have spent 30 minutes try.....

I have not  decided which  of the following standards should apply to you.

1. You should take A Lincoln's advice to heart. "“It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.” – Abraham Lincoln or

Maybe you should READ your OWN links then? 

 Executive Summary: Let me highlight for those who can't be Bothered to read their own LINKS.

Although the focus of this roadmap is on grid-forming inverter controls, their impact on grid stability, and evaluating crucial system interactions (e.g., protection), we recognize that the large interconnections in North America will comprise both electromechanical and inverter-based resources (in this roadmap, sometimes called a hybrid power system). More importantly, we further recognize that inverter-based resources will comprise both grid-forming resources and other forms of control, such as grid-following resources. Transitioning to a grid with more inverter-based resources poses major challenges because the operation of future power systems must be based on a combination of the physical properties and control responses of traditional, large synchronous generators as well as those of numerous and diverse inverter-based resources

So, please take Lincolns advice: "“It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.”

Supplying a solution to the Executive Summary question posed, even though I do not think it would work well, but it would partially work is passe to a regulatory mind.  Typical... Guess we need both Engineers/Regulators in this world. 

[turbguy + 1,553]

38 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

It's providing steam heat for all the buildings on the whole campus of 1,232 acres with - dozens (maybe hundreds?) of multistory buildings, most of which were constructed in the 19th century, and their insulation consists of - uh - uh - uh - stone blocks maybe? The undergraduate enrollment runs around 30,000 students, there are another 12,000 grad students, several thousand faculty, and then there are the 'off campus' buildings and facilities that aren't included as part of the 1,232 acres, such as the publishing facility, the hospital, the football stadium, the Olympic swimming pools (also heated) the high rise residential dorms, the campus police department, and probably some major ones I am forgetting, and then it sells power to the grid.  The S.F bay area doesn't get that cold, but it's not exactly warm either - most days long pants, thick socks, sturdy shoes and sweatshirts are normal outdoor clothing even during the heat of the day. 

From info I can find, UC Berkeley's steam plant has a single GE LM2500 (a DC10 engine with a load wheel(s) to drive the generator).  That's good for about 30-35 MW, which just might meet the U's need (+/-).  Plus three original boilers when the Cogen plant is out-of-service or steam demand exceeds the CHAP capability.

Steam generated is expanded in a ST (or used for HP steam needs on campus), and exhausts into the LP steam for space heating/cooling and water heating.  Cooling being done via absorption coolers.

Not a bad system!  A mix of CHAP and CC!

[Eric Gagen + 713]

49 minutes ago, turbguy said:

From info I can find, UC Berkeley's steam plant has a single GE LM2500 (a DC10 engine with a load wheel(s) to drive the generator).  That's good for about 30-35 MW, which just might meet the U's need (+/-).  Plus three original boilers when the Cogen plant is out-of-service or steam demand exceeds the CHAP capability.

Steam generated is expanded in a ST (or used for HP steam needs on campus), and exhausts into the LP steam for space heating/cooling and water heating.  Cooling being done via absorption coolers.

Not a bad system!  A mix of CHAP and CC!

I'm sure you are correct - I was going from memory, and uncertain how to figure it out. I have learned a lot more about electric power since then, but I don't claim to be an expert about power plants by any means - more of a dangerous amateur.  I just remember it was a pretty clever system, and that it was a net revenue generator for the college as a whole - IIRC it was at least in part a technology demonstrator of some sort.  

Edited June 29, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:34 PM, turbguy said:

 

When somebody says that without tax benefits, these systems don't make sense...

Somebody else is building a lot of them.

It ain't going to cease.

Taxes are typically imposed to extract revenue from social or market activity that causes social DAMAGE.  Such as alcohol, transportation fuels, consumption of just about everything, and property value.

If an "activity' causes less damage, should it not be taxed at a reduction?

I see your point, here's my perspective.

I think the value of energy generated from fossil fuels is of greater value to the public.  When the tax money comes full circle, the consumer pays less for fossil fuel generation. If it were otherwise, then renewables wouldn't need the subsidies. You can maybe attribute automobile pollution to health problems, but with the exception of coal plants, it's a lot harder to find sources of distress for natgas plants or natgas combined cycle plants. 

Besides, it's not like the creation of renewable systems doesn't come at environmental cost. I'm not talking about carbon emissions because I understand that renewables have a decent carbon payback period**. I'm talking about clearing large stretches of land (whoever it was last time, for the love of god don't start posting pictures of coal mines because you know that isn't a fair comparison) for solar and wind farms. Or maybe the usage of metals with questionable origin. Toxic biproducts too? 

** it always amazes me that when I look up "renewable payback period" one of the search responses is about carbon payback, not financial payback. I certainly couldn't care less. 

[turbguy + 1,553]

29 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

I see your point, here's my perspective.

I think the value of energy generated from fossil fuels is of greater value to the public.  When the tax money comes full circle, the consumer pays less for fossil fuel generation. If it were otherwise, then renewables wouldn't need the subsidies. You can maybe attribute automobile pollution to health problems, but with the exception of coal plants, it's a lot harder to find sources of distress for natgas plants or natgas combined cycle plants. 

Besides, it's not like the creation of renewable systems doesn't come at environmental cost. I'm not talking about carbon emissions because I understand that renewables have a decent carbon payback period**. I'm talking about clearing large stretches of land (whoever it was last time, for the love of god don't start posting pictures of coal mines because you know that isn't a fair comparison) for solar and wind farms. Or maybe the usage of metals with questionable origin. Toxic biproducts too? 

** it always amazes me that when I look up "renewable payback period" one of the search responses is about carbon payback, not financial payback. I certainly couldn't care less. 

Yeah, renewable is "dilute". 

Certainly a surface coal mine takes up land, as does the coal processing plant, but please also consider the roads and railbeds in that area consideration as well.  Those railbeds, dedicated solely to coal transport, take up a LOT of area.

And I mean a LOT!

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by turbguy

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

3 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Yeah, renewable is "dilute". 

Certainly a surface coal mine takes up land, as does the coal processing plant, but please also consider the roads and railbeds in that area as well.  Those railbeds, dedicated solely to coal transport, take up a LOT of area.

And I mean a LOT!

Okay, I suppose it's numbers time. 

[nsdp + 449]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

he short-circuit response of grid-forming inverters is an open question, and significant research is needed to characterize the short-circuit response of grid-forming inverters to many different abnormal grid operations (IEEE/NERC 2018). The short-circuit response should be well characterized and, if possible, increased using either software or hardware to approach the values provided by synchronous machines (HartMaybe you should READ your OWN links then? 

 Executive Summary: Let me highlight for those who can't be Bothered to read their own LINKS.

Although the focus of this roadmap is on grid-forming inverter controls, their impact on grid stability, and evaluating crucial system interactions (e.g., protection), we recognize that the large interconnections in North America will comprise both electromechanical and inverter-based resources (in this roadmap, sometimes called a hybrid power system). More importantly, we further recognize that inverter-based resources will comprise both grid-forming resources and other forms of control, such as grid-following resources. Transitioning to a grid with more inverter-based resources poses major challenges because the operation of future power systems must be based on a combination of the physical properties and control responses of traditional, large synchronous generators as well as those of numerous and diverse inverter-based resources

So, please take Lincolns advice: "“It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.”

Supplying a solution to the Executive Summary question posed, even though I do not think it would work well, but it would partially work is passe to a regulatory mind.  Typical... Guess we need both Engineers/Regulators in this world. 

I always love it(you cannot imagine how much fun it is) cross examining a pretend expert who has only read the preface to a paper and did not read the full text of the paper where the bodies are buried. Further reading you would have found the following problems that cannot be fixed at this time. IT WILL TAKE REPLACEMENT OF EXISTING GENERATORS WITH ANEW DESIGN TO ACCOMODATE THE ADVERSE CONDITIONS CAUSED BY INVERTERS.

"Theoretically, grid-forming inverters should be able to reproduce the effects of synchronous machines in a fault condition, including sourcing zero- and negative-currents; however, no commercially available three-phase grid-forming inverters independently balance phases by providing zero- and negative-sequence currents (both as a result of the current dq control paradigm as well as the tendency of commercial inverters   to come in three-wire, instead of four-wire, configurations as a cost-saving measure),so it is unknown if they can source these currents during fault condition. The ability of current grid-forming inverters to produce zero- and negative-sequence current must be analyzed. The short-circuit response should be well characterized and, if possible, increased using either software or hardware to approach the values provided by synchronous machines  so it is unknown if they can source these currents during fault conditions."

YOU SHOULD READ AND COMPREHEND THIS SECTION IN ITS ENTIRETY.

.3.1 Transition to Distribution Bidirectional Power Flow

"The short-circuit response of grid-forming inverters is an open question, and significant research is needed to characterize the short-circuit response of grid-forming inverters to many different abnormal grid operations (IEEE/NERC 2018). The short-circuit response should be well characterized and, if possible, increased using either software or hardware to approach the values provided by synchronous machines .

I can hear the jury laughing now.   You stopped reading  with the answer you liked before the physics got tough.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by nsdp
correct errors

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

@turbguy

Well it looks like coal mines have amounted to around 2.8 million acres.

While it's unrealistic to talk about powering the entire USA with solar, the number for that is ~11 million acres. So we're at a factor of 4x before we make any reductions. How far do we go down? 8 million solar acres? 5? 2.8? 

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

Yeah, renewable is "dilute". 

Certainly a surface coal mine takes up land, as does the coal processing plant, but please also consider the roads and railbeds in that area consideration as well.  Those railbeds, dedicated solely to coal transport, take up a LOT of area.

And I mean a LOT!

 

 

 

 

Keyboard warrior, just remember  that the solar output in  New Mexico area(Lea, Eddy and Chaves counties) of the Permian Basin  can generate enough electricity to power the entire US. So any coal or oil or gas or pipeline or trains is using outside the Permian area  is more than than  renewables need.   The Permian salts ad the El Capitan aquifer will supply the storage caverns and water to store back up and night time power on site.

Edited June 29, 2021 by nsdp
can't sspell Chaves

[nsdp + 449]

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away John Prine R.I.P.
 

Edited June 29, 2021 by nsdp

[turbguy + 1,553]

1 hour ago, nsdp said:

And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County
Down by the Green River where Paradise lay
Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking
Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away John Prine R.I.P.
 

Scratch off the top layer of Paradise and you will find the Land of Job.

[turbguy + 1,553]

1 hour ago, nsdp said:

Keyboard warrior, just remember  that the solar output in  New Mexico area(Lea, Eddy and Chaves counties) of the Permian Basin  can generate enough electricity to power the entire US. So any coal or oil or gas or pipeline or trains is using outside the Permian area  is more than than  renewables need.   The Permian salts ad the El Capitan aquifer will supply the storage caverns and water to store back up and night time power on site.

People need to realize that the total solar insolation of the earth is at least 3 orders of magnitude greater than ALL the energy required by humanity today.   And I mean ALL!

[NickW + 2,714]

7 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

@turbguy

Well it looks like coal mines have amounted to around 2.8 million acres.

While it's unrealistic to talk about powering the entire USA with solar, the number for that is ~11 million acres. So we're at a factor of 4x before we make any reductions. How far do we go down? 8 million solar acres? 5? 2.8? 

Difference is the land the solar farm is on can still be used for agricultural - usually small animal grazing or horticulture and is quite usable if the solar farm is removed. 

In contrast it takes a hell of a lot of restoration work to get an open cast mine back to being usable - in most cases it fills with water. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

5 hours ago, NickW said:

Difference is the land the solar farm is on can still be used for agricultural - usually small animal grazing or horticulture and is quite usable if the solar farm is removed. 

In contrast it takes a hell of a lot of restoration work to get an open cast mine back to being usable - in most cases it fills with water. 

Grazing really doesn't make much money. I ranch cattle, and to think of trying to round up cows in a field of solar panels sounds like a nightmare. 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

34 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Grazing really doesn't make much money. I ranch cattle, and to think of trying to round up cows in a field of solar panels sounds like a nightmare. 

Yeah - while they are there, solar panels pretty much DO use the land they are on- not sure how you could argue otherwise - To work effectively they have to cover the land area  Wind turbines on the other hand, are compatible with most farm and ranch uses, just as traditional oil and gas is.  

[-trance + 114]

18 hours ago, turbguy said:

Wow!

They must need a lot of steam for 'something' locally.

Does Berkeley get THAT cold?

 

My university has something similar.

https://www.ualberta.ca/facilities-operations/projects-initiatives/utilities-behind-the-scenes.html

"Five large boilers burn natural gas, producing one-billion kilograms of steam each year."

Edited June 29, 2021 by -trance

[turbguy + 1,553]

1 hour ago, -trance said:

My university has something similar.

https://www.ualberta.ca/facilities-operations/projects-initiatives/utilities-behind-the-scenes.html

"Five large boilers burn natural gas, producing one-billion kilograms of steam each year."

Yup.  That's CHAP.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,491]

18 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

@turbguy

Well it looks like coal mines have amounted to around 2.8 million acres.

While it's unrealistic to talk about powering the entire USA with solar, the number for that is ~11 million acres. So we're at a factor of 4x before we make any reductions. How far do we go down? 8 million solar acres? 5? 2.8? 

How about 50% demand met by offshore wind, 25% by onshore and 25% by solar? Making solar the same or less than coal. Especially considering that a very large proportion of solar can be distributed on rooftops. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,491]

4 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

Yeah - while they are there, solar panels pretty much DO use the land they are on- not sure how you could argue otherwise - To work effectively they have to cover the land area  

Rooftop solar. People work and live just fine underneath solar panels.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[-trance + 114]

43 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Rooftop solar. People work and live just fine underneath solar panels.

I bet properly installed the shade also reduces air conditioning usage.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 6/28/2021 at 9:52 AM, Eric Gagen said:

Last time we built a house, it was in an area without pipeline gas service, so the cost of purchasing and running a diesel generator got sky high when you consider that it would have to run on diesel.  The property had propane service at one time, but delivery in that area was expensive - like $2 a gallon, everything out there was already all electric by the time we got there.  

I do expect it to take 10 years to pay for a solar setup, but even if we don't stay that long it helps to make the resale value of the property higher, so it pays off either way, either for me, or for my heirs.  

Keep your usage records. Not everyone wants to have solar panels, but many would like real savings. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Rooftop solar. People work and live just fine underneath solar panels.

Even better: solar installed over parking lots. Whenever you see a small solar installation over a parking lot, you find that the shaded spots are highly preferred for parking.

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

19 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

@turbguy

Well it looks like coal mines have amounted to around 2.8 million acres.

While it's unrealistic to talk about powering the entire USA with solar, the number for that is ~11 million acres. So we're at a factor of 4x before we make any reductions. How far do we go down? 8 million solar acres? 5? 2.8? 

Thanks. It's good to look at actual numbers. can you please let us know where these number come from so we can dig deeper?

[nsdp + 449]

7 hours ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Grazing really doesn't make much money. I ranch cattle, and to think of trying to round up cows in a field of solar panels sounds like a nightmare. 

Doing it in Lea, Eddy and Chaves Counties only interferes with mice and rattlesnakes. Nothing there to graze. Except for oil and gas extraction land is more useless than parking lot.   Next of kin to the Western desert in Egypt.