United Kingdom to bring forward the end of coal era to 2024

[hemanthaa@mail.com + 64]

Britain is to bring forward the end of coal in power station, the government announced today. At present, the use of coal in the UK is the lowest among the developed nations - just below 2%. With this announcement, the government wants the rest of the world to follow suit:

For more on that, please read here:

[markslawson + 1,057]

9 hours ago, hemanthaa@mail.com said:

Britain is to bring forward the end of coal in power station, the government announced today. At present, the use of coal in the UK is the lowest among the developed nations - just below 2%. With this announcement, the government wants the rest of the world to follow suit:

I had been under the distinct impression that Britain had already phased out coal power largely due to the abundance of cheap gas from the North Sea. Now they have to pipe the gas in from Russia but, in any case, Britain is one market where gas has pushed out coal. This change is attributed in the article to the increasing use of renewables and, sure, you will read lots of articles about how renewables are generating more power in the UK. However, those articles never talk about the wild swings in the amount of wind power on the grid. Gas plants can accommodate those swings much more easily than coal - you can start up and shut down gas plants more easily than coal plants (Hydro is way better, but gas will have to do). The US is another market where gas has pushed out a lot of coal, albeit for a different set of reasons.    

[hemanthaa@mail.com + 64]

It's true. Britian realized last year that Wind turbines are not fully reliable - for a simple reason; there are days without winds! In those days, they were back on good old fossil fuels. I wrote on that a few months ago here.

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

Although the UK is leading the way in wind powergen, the government is also investing in green and blue hydrogen with carbon capture projects that give net zero Co2 emissions.

https://hynet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/062021-Intergen-and-HyNet-announcement1.pdf

https://www.equinor.com/en/where-we-are/united-kingdom/110521-peterhead-CCS.html

https://theacornproject.uk/

https://www.mcdermott-investors.com/news/press-release-details/2020/McDermott-Awarded-Pre-FEED-for-NET-Power-UK-Project/default.aspx

Hydrogen and NG will be a key player long term for a stable grid system in the UK.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Rob Plant

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 7/1/2021 at 10:00 PM, Rob Plant said:

Although the UK is leading the way in wind powergen, the government is also investing in green and blue hydrogen with carbon capture projects that give net zero Co2 emissions.

Rob - plenty of that stuff around. Call us when any of it becomes useful. I'd be most interested.. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

So, let me get this straight.. UK ran out of domestic coal, and is now patting itself on the back of "phasing it out" instead of importing coal.... by using domestic gas....

So, when they run out of domestic North Sea gas they will be patting themselves on the back of phasing out "gas" by importing LNG, or whatever euphemism they want to use for concentrated power as they have run out of all local power consumables.   Ah, but they will say they are "green" ... instead of reality: They need power, and importing power is VERY expensive. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, let me get this straight.. UK ran out of domestic coal, and is now patting itself on the back of "phasing it out" instead of importing coal.... by using domestic gas....

So, when they run out of domestic North Sea gas they will be patting themselves on the back of phasing out "gas" by importing LNG, or whatever euphemism they want to use for concentrated power as they have run out of all local power consumables.   Ah, but they will say they are "green" ... instead of reality: They need power, and importing power is VERY expensive. 

The UK hasnt "run out" of domestic coal get your facts straight!! See below a brand new coal mine for the steel industry!

https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/woodhouse-colliery-west-cumbria/

There is no need to "import coal" as you state.

We wont be running out of NG any time soon either so no need to import LNG.

We have plenty of coal and NG thanks and I don't see anyone "patting themselves on the back" about being green apart from politicians who are the scum of the earth.

Our national grid both imports and exports power depending on which country has the greater need (see below). I cannot remember any enforced power cuts in the last 30 years in the UK (unlike the US).

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Before making wild comments try a little research first, it always helps and may change your opinion.

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

The UK hasnt "run out" of domestic coal get your facts straight!! See below a brand new coal mine for the steel industry!

https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/woodhouse-colliery-west-cumbria/

There is no need to "import coal" as you state.

We wont be running out of NG any time soon either so no need to import LNG.

We have plenty of coal and NG thanks and I don't see anyone "patting themselves on the back" about being green apart from politicians who are the scum of the earth.

Our national grid both imports and exports power depending on which country has the greater need (see below). I cannot remember any enforced power cuts in the last 30 years in the UK (unlike the US).

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Before making wild comments try a little research first, it always helps and may change your opinion.

We do import LNG via the Milford Haven and Grain terminals. A lot of it comes from Qatar, also Trinidad, USA

[NickW + 2,714]

Whats somewhat worrying about this is that the UK is using that coal plant in the summer quite routinely when originally it was planned to use it for winter peaking. 

When these close the UK's non gas baseload will be about 1.2GW of Hydro, 3GW of Biomass and 5GW of geriatric nuclear plant (soon to be decommissioned). 

One alternative  reason for the summer coal burn might be the operators using up the operating hours allowances before 2024 closure. 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

1 hour ago, NickW said:

One alternative  reason for the summer coal burn might be the operators using up the operating hours allowances before 2024 closure. 

The new coal mine is for steel making not powergen

West Burton is the only real coal station left and that does the bare minimum. The government has recently brought forward the deadline for coal powergen to October 2024.

A lot of the nucs keep getting extensions and there is Hinkley C to come on stream yet

[NickW + 2,714]

33 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

The new coal mine is for steel making not powergen

West Burton is the only real coal station left and that does the bare minimum. The government has recently brought forward the deadline for coal powergen to October 2024.

A lot of the nucs keep getting extensions and there is Hinkley C to come on stream yet

And thats if its allowed to go ahead. I recall the Government have called this in. 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

Nick I dont think we have much choice if we still want a steel industry in the UK

[NickW + 2,714]

41 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

The new coal mine is for steel making not powergen

West Burton is the only real coal station left and that does the bare minimum. The government has recently brought forward the deadline for coal powergen to October 2024.

A lot of the nucs keep getting extensions and there is Hinkley C to come on stream yet

Ratcliffe is still operating. Drax can burn coal if need be. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, Rob Plant said:

Nick I dont think we have much choice if we still want a steel industry in the UK

I agree but then look at all the other daft decisions the govt make? 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

Drax is totally biomass and cant burn coal now

Yes I forgot Ratcliffe!!

[specinho + 457]

5 hours ago, NickW said:

Whats somewhat worrying about this is that the UK is using that coal plant in the summer quite routinely when originally it was planned to use it for winter peaking. 

When these close the UK's non gas baseload will be about 1.2GW of Hydro, 3GW of Biomass and 5GW of geriatric nuclear plant (soon to be decommissioned). 

One alternative  reason for the summer coal burn might be the operators using up the operating hours allowances before 2024 closure. 

 I somehow recall an irony case in the Biography of Mdm Margaret Thatcher that for decades the government had been in tight - tug- of- war discussion with the union regarding raising 2 bucks per week for coal miners back then. Now, they seem never hesitate another second to close it blaming coal as the culprit for climate change and pollution etc...........

This graph has been rather intriguing. Although not sure if it will reduce the urge to act in hast........ it could be useful info that gives you a split second to look at fossil fuel and climate differently......... Hope you would not mind me sharing here.....

 

This graph shows an estimation on  percentage of  greenhouse gas emission, sectors involved and may be direct causal relation to global warming. Briefly.......... Production of energy for "electricity and heat" and "other energy" comprises ~ 55% of greenhouse gas emission and hence deemed the main culprit of climate change or global warming. The rest are transportation, agricultural activities, industrial activities and waste related processes.

 

During lock down, it could be safe to deduced that "electricity and heat" and "other energy" generation continues, whereas transportation, agricultural activities and industrial activities reduced to minimal due to stop work order…. (waste processes would assumed to be depended on what kind of process is involved e.g. incineration, landfill gas from microb activities etc)

 

If, the observation that climate is cooling down during lock down is correct............ then.........

 

it might also mean that they way energy is produced at the moment, be it with coal, gas, petroleum, hydro etc, might not be the direct cause of global warming but massive human activities like heavy traffic, agricultural activities, industrial activities, waste related processes are the culprits?? These activities when reduced in  numbers involved, could change climate immediately??

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

The UK hasnt "run out" of domestic coal get your facts straight!! See below a brand new coal mine for the steel industry!

https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/woodhouse-colliery-west-cumbria/

There is no need to "import coal" as you state.

We wont be running out of NG any time soon either so no need to import LNG.

We have plenty of coal and NG thanks and I don't see anyone "patting themselves on the back" about being green apart from politicians who are the scum of the earth.

Our national grid both imports and exports power depending on which country has the greater need (see below). I cannot remember any enforced power cuts in the last 30 years in the UK (unlike the US).

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Before making wild comments try a little research first, it always helps and may change your opinion.

Can you math bro? UK has ~100M tons of coal(maybe)...  under the ocean...

UK uses 2500TWh equivalent / year(It is actually far higher than this but, I digress).  UK produces ~300TWh/year electrical power only. 

1G kWh of power = 1 TWh  requires how much coal a year again?   

~1 ton coal ~ 2000kWh  (I am being generous)

~1G kWh = ~0.5Mt coal.   

So that 100MMt of coal reserves which makes excellent coking coal for steel production(which the UK MUST have today and the future) can provide how much electrical power if you burned it ALL?  100Mt/0.5Mt/1TWh = 200TWh... or less than 10% of the UK power required for 1 year or 2/3 of electrical demand for 1 year... Do remember the electrification of the industrial processes etc will literally blow up the power sector to astronomical heights...

No Shit the UK shut down their coal powered plants when the reserves are not only gone, but what is left is perfect for coking coal used in steel production which they would have had to IMPORT

 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Can you math bro? UK has ~100M tons of coal(maybe)...  under the ocean...

UK uses 2500TWh equivalent / year(It is actually far higher than this but, I digress).  UK produces ~300TWh/year electrical power only. 

1G kWh of power = 1 TWh  requires how much coal a year again?   

~1 ton coal ~ 2000kWh  (I am being generous)

~1G kWh = ~0.5Mt coal.   

So that 100MMt of coal reserves which makes excellent coking coal for steel production(which the UK MUST have today and the future) can provide how much electrical power if you burned it ALL?  100Mt/0.5Mt/1TWh = 200TWh... or less than 10% of the UK power required for 1 year or 2/3 of electrical demand for 1 year... Do remember the electrification of the industrial processes etc will literally blow up the power sector to astronomical heights...

No Shit the UK shut down their coal powered plants when the reserves are not only gone, but what is left is perfect for coking coal used in steel production which they would have had to IMPORT

 

We arent using coal for electricity generation. Thats got nothing to do with coal reserves but political will, greens if you like.

To state we have run out of coal and will then run out of gas if utter BS and you know it (or maybe you dont)

 I am well aware that coal is a must for steel making which is exactly why I posted this new mine which has been sanctioned for exactly that purpose. 

The UK uses a miniscule amount of coal because we have a very small steel industry these days which is in decline, and pretty much use none for powergen.

Our coal imports are about 13% of what they were at their peak in 2013 and this is set to decline when the very few remaining coal stations are closed in October 2024.

I'm not saying government policy is right I'm just saying what it is.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/370921/united-kingdom-uk-mined-coal-trade/

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/steel-production

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

2 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

We arent using coal for electricity generation. Thats got nothing to do with coal reserves but political will, greens if you like.

To state we have run out of coal and will then run out of gas if utter BS and you know it (or maybe you dont)

 I am well aware that coal is a must for steel making which is exactly why I posted this new mine which has been sanctioned for exactly that purpose. 

The UK uses a miniscule amount of coal because we have a very small steel industry these days which is in decline, and pretty much use none for powergen.

Our coal imports are about 13% of what they were at their peak in 2013 and this is set to decline when the very few remaining coal stations are closed in October 2024.

I'm not saying government policy is right I'm just saying what it is.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/370921/united-kingdom-uk-mined-coal-trade/

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/steel-production

So, now you agree with my original sarcastic statement which your nationalistic pride took umbrage at and instead wish to parse part of it... Yea, uh huh, ok...  UK has no coal left as they used it all creating the industrial revolution the rest of the world piggybacked on,  and instead made a PR bogus "green claim"  🙄  Thanks for the industrial revolution BTW...

UK must put all eggs in Wind + some miraculous storage which does not exist, or hope someone finally develops Fast Breeder Liquid Salt Thorium/Uranium reactors as clearly the UK has zero interest in nuclear at this point.  Maybe if the French start doing it the UK will sniff reality and join the nuclear train. 

 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

23 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So, now you agree with my original sarcastic statement which your nationalistic pride took umbrage at and instead wish to parse part of it... Yea, uh huh, ok...  UK has no coal left as they used it all creating the industrial revolution the rest of the world piggybacked on,  and instead made a PR bogus "green claim"  🙄  Thanks for the industrial revolution BTW...

UK must put all eggs in Wind + some miraculous storage which does not exist, or hope someone finally develops Fast Breeder Liquid Salt Thorium/Uranium reactors as clearly the UK has zero interest in nuclear at this point.  Maybe if the French start doing it the UK will sniff reality and join the nuclear train. 

 

Haha you clearly struggle with the language we gave you as its pretty obvious I don't agree with your incorrect observations!

Yes of course we have no coal left thats why we've just opened a new mine!! Jeez!!

You say "clearly the UK has zero interest in nuclear at this point."   As for nucs we are building Hinkley C (you must have missed that) and have 2 others in the pipeline, see below, which will complement the 8 active ones.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/789655/Nuclear_electricity_in_the_UK.pdf

Its my pleasure about the industrial revolution, no doubt you'd still be shovelling shit on some pig farm if it wasn't for us, now you just talk it.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

51 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Haha you clearly struggle with the language we gave you as its pretty obvious I don't agree with your incorrect observations!

Yes of course we have no coal left thats why we've just opened a new mine!! Jeez!!

You say "clearly the UK has zero interest in nuclear at this point."   As for nucs we are building Hinkley C (you must have missed that) and have 2 others in the pipeline, see below, which will complement the 8 active ones.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/789655/Nuclear_electricity_in_the_UK.pdf

Its my pleasure about the industrial revolution, no doubt you'd still be shovelling shit on some pig farm if it wasn't for us, now you just talk it.

@Rob Plant - it seems to be the case that you are getting caught on the technical and financial difference between the words resource and reserve. 

A natural resource is something that exists somewhere.  A reserve is a resource that has sufficient value that it can be extracted from the ground at a profit, or at the very least while breaking even in the process.

Coal comes in many grades, but the two we are concerned with here are thermal coal, and metalurgical coking coal. Thermal coal is coal which has as it's chief value it's ability to be burned to make heat.  Metalurgical coking coal is coal which has as it's chief value its chemical composition making it suitable for steel production

The United Kingdom still has large resources of thermal coal.  Exactly how large isn't clear, since a thorough inventory has never been attempted

The United Kingdom has effectively no reserves of thermal coal.  There is next to no place in the UK where you could start, or continue to operate a coal mine and make a profit in the process.  In nearly every case the national economy would be better off with importing the coal if it is needed, or finding some other way to generate the end product created by the coal.

The proposed new West Cumbria mine is for metallurgical grade coking coal.  This product sells for a much higher price than thermal coal, thus justifying (maybe) the development.  This is not a product comparable with thermal coal, and even if there were a desire to burn it to make heat, it would be wasteful to make the attempt. 

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

18 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

@Rob Plant - it seems to be the case that you are getting caught on the technical and financial difference between the words resource and reserve. 

A natural resource is something that exists somewhere.  A reserve is a resource that has sufficient value that it can be extracted from the ground at a profit, or at the very least while breaking even in the process.

Coal comes in many grades, but the two we are concerned with here are thermal coal, and metalurgical coking coal. Thermal coal is coal which has as it's chief value it's ability to be burned to make heat.  Metalurgical coking coal is coal which has as it's chief value its chemical composition making it suitable for steel production

The United Kingdom still has large resources of thermal coal.  Exactly how large isn't clear, since a thorough inventory has never been attempted

The United Kingdom has effectively no reserves of thermal coal.  There is next to no place in the UK where you could start, or continue to operate a coal mine and make a profit in the process.  In nearly every case the national economy would be better off with importing the coal if it is needed, or finding some other way to generate the end product created by the coal.

The proposed new West Cumbria mine is for metallurgical grade coking coal.  This product sells for a much higher price than thermal coal, thus justifying (maybe) the development.  This is not a product comparable with thermal coal, and even if there were a desire to burn it to make heat, it would be wasteful to make the attempt. 

Nope i know the difference and it was me that posted about the new mine specifying it's sole use was in steel production!!

yes the thermal coal we largely import due to it being economical to do so, but its still a very low level.

The figures below shows the level of hard coal resource and the level of reserve, admittedly the data is 2 years out of date.

https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/united-kingdom/

Footeab stated we had no coal and would run out of NG which is just plain wrong. A large part of our thermal powergen coal i agree is uneconomic to mine and cheaper to import. However its a moot point as we wont have any coal fired stations by October 2024.

 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

48 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Nope i know the difference and it was me that posted about the new mine specifying it's sole use was in steel production!!

yes the thermal coal we largely import due to it being economical to do so, but its still a very low level.

The figures below shows the level of hard coal resource and the level of reserve, admittedly the data is 2 years out of date.

https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/united-kingdom/

Footeab stated we had no coal and would run out of NG which is just plain wrong. A large part of our thermal powergen coal i agree is uneconomic to mine and cheaper to import. However its a moot point as we wont have any coal fired stations by October 2024.

 

No coal reserves, and no coal are synonyms.  It doesn't matter how much is technically in the ground if it costs more to get it out than it's worth. 

As a practical matter, the UK has no coal, by any useful definition.  The report you linked talks about the UK coal available to mine here: current reserves on the order of 33 million tons of bituminous coal and a potentially economic resource base on the order of 1-5 billion tons about half of which is lignite. By comparison with countries which still have coal, these are miniscule numbers. 

For example, Poland still has coal reserves, and a coal industry (although it is very small on a world scale) and an economy and population roughly in the same range as the UK, and it's data from the same source is here:

 https://euracoal.eu/info/country-profiles/poland/ 

22.3 billion tons of bituminous coal in reserves  ~ 1 billion tons of lignite in reserves, ~ 61 billion tons of bituminous coal in resources, and ~ 23 billion tons of lignite resources.  Lignite and bituminous coal are each being mined at ~ 55 - 60 million tons a year, for a total coal production of ~ 115 million tons a year.  

The entire reserve base of UK coal would be mined out in 3 months if it were running it's coal industry at a level equivalent to that of a similar sized economy that is generating a significant amount of it's electricity from coal. Poland has about 700 times as much coal which can be economically mined as the UK does.  And yet the coal industry of Poland is declining because it's running out of coal, having seen it's production rate fall precipitously in the last 30 years

"Since the beginning of the 1990s, the Polish mining industry has been going through a process of transformation.  Hard coal production decreased from 177.4 million tonnes in 1989 to 63.4 million tonnes in 2018.  Over the same period, employment in the Polish hard coal mining sector decreased from 407 000 to 82 843 employees at the end of 2018."

By comparison with a similar sized economy which uses coal in a significant way, the UK has no coal.  

Edited July 6, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[Rob Plant + 2,747]

like I said Eric its a moot point, we will have zero coal fired stations in a couple of years, and our steel industry is in major decline.

the UK depends on 1.5% of its powergen from coal and that is declining now with Drax (the UK's largest station) now totally biomass since March 2021. The UK hasnt been reliant on coal for many many years. You state "The entire reserve base of UK coal would be mined out in 3 months if it were running it's coal industry at a level equivalent to that of a similar sized economy that is generating a significant amount of it's electricity from coal." But we aren't and haven't been for a very very long time, so your point is irrelevant.

To say the UK's economy and population is "in the same range as Poland" is laughable frankly (no disrespect to Poland). See below listing which shows GDP and population (its about 1/3 down the article), the UK's GDP is 5 times that of Poland.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp

https://grid.iamkate.com/

We don't have much demand for coal so who cares?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Rob Plant

[Eric Gagen + 713]

1/3rd is 'in the range' it's not 10 times smaller or 10 times bigger, and the amount of energy used in the two economies is also in the same ballpark.  If Poland does indeed have a much smaller economy than the UK however (honestly I thought it was more like 1/2 or 1/3rd)  it merely reinforces my point - the UK cannot in any realistic way attempt to use coal as a power source - it's economy is too large and it has too little coal.  

It's not entirely a moot point though.  the USA and Russia (for example) do have enough recoverable coal, that if it were desirable it could run the lions share of it's economy on coal, and China is presently doing it.  The range of potential options available for policy makers is an important constraint on their actual decisions.  If UK policy makers cannot hope to use more coal as one of their range of options, that's an important distinction separate from choosing not to do it for some other reasons.