China Producing Half of the Worlds Electrical Vehicle Batteries is Experiencing Explosive Pollution

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://www.theepochtimes.com/with-china-producing-half-the-worlds-new-energy-vehicles-retired-batteries-may-bring-explosive-pollution_3897010.html

I have heard optimistic claims for using used batteries in America, but this story is scary. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Scary indeed and it is a real problem already.

Clearly there are laws in China and regulatory bodies but these needs to be far more robust and any economic advantage for circumnavigation the law needs to be negated as much as possible.

In the EU we have this

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/topics/waste-and-recycling/batteries-and-accumulators_en

However any laws can be broken and illegal profits made in any country.

[markslawson + 1,057]

18 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I have heard optimistic claims for using used batteries in America, but this story is scary. 

The problem of what to do with all the toxic waste left over in the rush to build a clean, green future has long been foreseen, but activists have always just brushed aside any warnings. There is also the problem of what to do with old wind turbines and PV panels, and the problem of the vast increase in demand for stuff like lithium and rare earths which are often mined in places with far fewer environmental safeguards than the west. The whole push towards clean energy and emission-free cars is a case of activists pushing to reduce emissions in a narrow set of countries and never mind the consequences to the environment everywhere else..  

[turbguy + 1,543]

11 minutes ago, markslawson said:

The problem of what to do with all the toxic waste left over in the rush to build a clean, green future has long been foreseen, but activists have always just brushed aside any warnings. There is also the problem of what to do with old wind turbines and PV panels, and the problem of the vast increase in demand for stuff like lithium and rare earths which are often mined in places with far fewer environmental safeguards than the west. The whole push towards clean energy and emission-free cars is a case of activists pushing to reduce emissions in a narrow set of countries and never mind the consequences to the environment everywhere else..  

You realize that fossil generation taps those same "third world" resources, no

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 7/14/2021 at 10:41 AM, turbguy said:

You realize that fossil generation taps those same "third world" resources, no

No - because they don't. Oil is produced through oil wells, mostly, without anything like  the environmental issues of rare earth and mineral mines (think treatment plants) - and production in this area has swung back to the west. Both the US and Canada are now major oil producers. Australia is the main exporting power in coal. India is developing mines in Australia to feed its growing power habit. In LNG both Australia and the US are major exporters. Rare earths mainly come from China, and the Chinese only care about the environment to the extent that they can fool Western activists into thinking that they do. As matters stand the Chinese will continue to run coal mines while at the same time developing polluting Lithium mines to feed the Western demand for the stuff all while binge-build coal power plants as they have been doing. This whole renewable energy-electric car trend is seriously messed up. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

18 hours ago, markslawson said:

No - because they don't. Oil is produced through oil wells, mostly, without anything like  the environmental issues of rare earth and mineral mines (think treatment plants) - and production in this area has swung back to the west. Both the US and Canada are now major oil producers. Australia is the main exporting power in coal. India is developing mines in Australia to feed its growing power habit. In LNG both Australia and the US are major exporters. Rare earths mainly come from China, and the Chinese only care about the environment to the extent that they can fool Western activists into thinking that they do. As matters stand the Chinese will continue to run coal mines while at the same time developing polluting Lithium mines to feed the Western demand for the stuff all while binge-build coal power plants as they have been doing. This whole renewable energy-electric car trend is seriously messed up. 

Ah, poor Mark...The big question is how much longer can the Aussie gov't continue to not only subsidize your coal and natural gas plants but order them to be built? it is all very socialist authoritarian of you.

Electric Vehicle Registrations Increase Over 60% YOY In Australia — Greater Surge To Come

Great news. However, we have to realise that this comes off a low base. Penetration of the new vehicle market by EVs (BEVs and PHEVS) is estimated to reach 2% in Australia during 2021. It may actually exceed this, as pundits predict that Tesla will ship in 15,000 cars from China and Nexport is bringing in the more affordable BYD.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/14/electric-vehicle-registrations-increase-over-60-yoy-in-australia-greater-surge-to-come/

Edited July 15, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[RichieRich216 + 454]

To all my Green Friends, How’s the “Clean world of EV’s working out so far, I bet China is being really really green in there producing of these! Also just an EV update on repairing a Tesla:

One Tesla Model 3 leasee discovered this first-hand after hitting road debris and damaging his battery pack. After taking his vehicle to a Tesla service center, he was handed an estimate for more than $16,000 to replace said pack. After seeking an alternative solution online, the owner reached out to Rich Benoit and the team at Electrified Garage who got him on the road again for just $700. JUST can’t make this shit up……😂😂

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

27 minutes ago, RichieRich216 said:

To all my Green Friends, How’s the “Clean world of EV’s working out so far, I bet China is being really really green in there producing of these! Also just an EV update on repairing a Tesla:

One Tesla Model 3 leasee discovered this first-hand after hitting road debris and damaging his battery pack. After taking his vehicle to a Tesla service center, he was handed an estimate for more than $16,000 to replace said pack. After seeking an alternative solution online, the owner reached out to Rich Benoit and the team at Electrified Garage who got him on the road again for just $700. JUST can’t make this shit up……😂😂

You are so clueless, you think this is a negative. This is great news for the EV world. 3rd party mechanics will be able to make cheap repairs on EVs just like they do today on ICE.

 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The big question is how much longer can the Aussie gov't continue to not only subsidize your coal and natural gas plants but order them to be built? it is all very socialist authoritarian of you.

A reminder:

1000 MW gas plant costs ~ $700 million

1000 MW of real solar capacity will be 3000 installed MW, with the $1.00 per watt totaling: $3 billion.

Net returns are higher per year for gas plants, even if you're paying for fuel. 

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

38 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

A reminder:

1000 MW gas plant costs ~ $700 million

1000 MW of real solar capacity will be 3000 installed MW, with the $1.00 per watt totaling: $3 billion.

Net returns are higher per year for gas plants, even if you're paying for fuel. 

 

Are you sure about that? The Aussie gov't just ordered a $500 million dollar 600MW peaker plant from the PM's buddy that is expected to operate at 2% capacity.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

23 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Are you sure about that? The Aussie gov't just ordered a $500 million dollar 600MW peaker plant from the PM's buddy that is expected to operate at 2% capacity.

This brings a couple things to mind. Is that USD or Aussie dollars?

Secondly, the same solar plant with an actual capacity of 600 MW would be $1.8 billion. 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

@Jay McKinsey Here's where I've been a couple times:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=31912#:~:text=Nearly 75% of the natural,plants with combustion turbines alone.

These are from a while back. Solar is obviously cheaper now than it was, but I used the current figure (sort of, solar isn't $1.00 per watt yet). 

Have the costs of a gas plant increased? 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

30 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

This brings a couple things to mind. Is that USD or Aussie dollars?

Secondly, the same solar plant with an actual capacity of 600 MW would be $1.8 billion. 

USD 

And that solar plant would operate at 25% capacity with no fuel costs.

The average cost of grid solar in Australia is $1.39AUD ($1.03USD) https://arena.gov.au/renewable-energy/large-scale-solar/

 

Natural gas is also a lot more expensive down under than in the US. They prefer to export it than use it domestically.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

11 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

USD 

And that solar plant would operate at 25% capacity with no fuel costs.

The average cost of grid solar in Australia is $1.39AUD https://arena.gov.au/renewable-energy/large-scale-solar/

 

Natural gas is also a lot more expensive down under than in the US. They prefer to export it than use it domestically.

If it's at 25% capacity, then you'd need 2400 installed MW. Creating a cost of $3.3 billion to match the gas plant yes? 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

17 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

If it's at 25% capacity, then you'd need 2400 installed MW. Creating a cost of $3.3 billion to match the gas plant yes? 

I liked your capacity factor but the EIA still only gives an average of 25% for solar.  The question is whether Australia has a higher capacity factor due to latitude / fewer clouds.

$1.39AUD is $1.03 USD

2400MW name plate in Australia at $1USD = 2.4 billion USD 

That gas plant is OCGT so 42% efficiency at very best.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,057]

3 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Ah, poor Mark...The big question is how much longer can the Aussie gov't continue to not only subsidize your coal and natural gas plants but order them to be built? it is all very socialist authoritarian of you.

Jay - again, who do you think you're trying to fool? I spent most of my career as a business journalist. To burst your green bubble the Australian government does not subsidise either industry.. this is a common delusion among activists. When asked to back it up, they point to surveys which count tax concessions (money not paid as tax) as subsidies (money received). The tax concessions are, in turn, about what you would expect given the risky nature of the enterprise and are similar to those of industry. The mining and LNG industries are major contributors to both state and Federal tax revenues - coal and iron ore in particular has almost pulled the Federal budget into the black.. . I have no idea what you mean by "order them to be built", but as the first part of your post was completely wrong the second part is probably the result of you misunderstanding some activist web site..  

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

29 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I liked your capacity factor but the EIA still only gives an average of 25% for solar.  The question is whether Australia has a higher capacity factor due to latitude / fewer clouds.

$1.39AUD is $1.03 USD

2400MW name plate in Australia at $1USD = 2.4 billion USD 

That gas plant is OCGT so 42% efficiency at very best.

Oops, missed that. Honestly it did seem high. 

I'd likely assume 35% efficiency if it's open cycle. What's the price of gas in Australia? 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 hours ago, markslawson said:

Jay - again, who do you think you're trying to fool? I spent most of my career as a business journalist. To burst your green bubble the Australian government does not subsidise either industry.. this is a common delusion among activists. When asked to back it up, they point to surveys which count tax concessions (money not paid as tax) as subsidies (money received). The tax concessions are, in turn, about what you would expect given the risky nature of the enterprise and are similar to those of industry. The mining and LNG industries are major contributors to both state and Federal tax revenues - coal and iron ore in particular has almost pulled the Federal budget into the black.. . I have no idea what you mean by "order them to be built", but as the first part of your post was completely wrong the second part is probably the result of you misunderstanding some activist web site..  

 

To ensure we do not have a scenario without replacement, the government is giving the private sector until the end of April 2021 to reach final investment decisions on 1GW of dispatchable capacity, with a commitment for generation in time for summer 2023-2024.

“However, if, by the end of April 2021, the private sector has not delivered on the target, the government will take necessary steps to ensure the required dispatchable capacity is built.” https://www.power-technology.com/news/australia-unveils-alternative-energy-plans-liddell-power-station/

Private sector wanted renewables but the government demanded natural gas. Private sector finally gave in on a third of the capacity in gas so the government decided to spend tax payer dollars to build the other two thirds of gas capacity at Snowy Hydro Kuri Kuri. A total waste of taxpayer money for a plant that will be used at 2% capacity factor at best. 

Thus the government ordered it and fully subsidized it. Now they are going to be the owners of a huge factor of production that is going to sit idle 98% of the time. Mao would be so proud. Clearly you are the fool Mark.

Just announced:

Energy giant AGL is preparing to mothball one of four units at South Australia’s biggest gas-fired power station as the influx of large-scale renewable energy and rooftop solar power continues to price fossil fuels out of the market.

“Construction of our 250-megawatt grid-scale battery is planned to begin later this year, making it the first of AGL’s planned 850 megawatts of batteries to get underway

 https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/agl-to-shut-down-gas-fired-power-unit-as-renewable-energy-soars-20210707-p587jb.html

--------------

MELBOURNE (Reuters) - Australia's parliament has approved plans to pay Viva Energy Ltd and Ampol Ltd up to A$2.3 billion ($1.8 billion) to keep their struggling oil refineries open

----------------

 

Fossil fuel subsidies cost Australians a staggering $10.3 billion in FY 2020-21 with one Commonwealth tax break alone (fuel tax credit scheme in the Federal Budget) ($7.84 billion) exceeding the $7.82 billion spent on the Australian Army, according to research released today by The Australia Institute.

In fact, $10.3 billion in Government subsidies means that in 2020, every minute of every day $19,686 was effectively given to coal, oil and gas companies and major users of fossil fuels.

Key findings:

• The Commonwealth’s main tax break to major fossil fuel users cost $7.84 billion, exceeding the $7.82 billion spent on the Australian Army
• In fact, $10.3 billion in Government subsidies means that in 2020, this equates to $19,686 per minute effectively given to coal, oil and gas companies and major users of fossil fuels
• State Governments spent $1.2 billion mainly through subsidising exploration, refurbishing coal ports, railways and power stations and funding ‘clean coal’ research.
  • State governments continue to pour money into coal ports and railways despite Queensland Treasury advice that ‘spending on mining related infrastructure means less infrastructure spending on hospitals and schools’.
• $8.3 billion in assistance is already committed to longer term fossil fuel subsidies, led by the NT government’s $3.8 billion gas purchase from Italian oil and gas company Eni.

“Coal, oil and gas companies in Australia give the impression that they are major contributors to the Australian economy, but our research shows that they are major recipients of government funds,” said Rod Campbell, Research Director at The Australia Institute.

 

Further examples of state subsidies

• Queensland upgraded its coal and gas power stations, ran a ‘mine dozer replacement program’ and provided other assistance measures worth $744 million last year, only slightly less than the $818 million spent on Fire and Emergency Services.
• Over the longer term, the Northern Territory is the biggest backer of the gas industry, with almost $4 billion committed to an offshore gas project and $1 billion for pipelines.
• Western Australia is spending hundreds of millions on fossil fuel-fired power stations, including $93 million on a gas-fired power station in a town of 848 people in partnership with Chevron.
• New South Wales is putting $100 million into ‘coal innovation’, but much of the research remains mysteriously unpublished, such as a cost benefit analysis of carbon capture and storage in the state.
• Victoria is spending $8.8 million to re-start an onshore gas industry and develop a ‘gas roadmap’, spending dwarfed by the $100 million going to turn brown coal into hydrogen and export it to Japan.
• South Australia put $10.5 million into a program that aims to accelerate gas exploration and has also budgeted $30 million for a jetty mainly used by gas company Santos.
• Tasmania’s 2020-21 budget has no clear assistance for fossil fuels, although $73,000 was given to coal companies in 2019.
• The ACT is the only jurisdiction in Australia with no subsidies for fossil fuels, along with the most ambitious climate targets in the country.

https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-hit-10-3-billion-in-2020-21/

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

24 minutes ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

Oops, missed that. Honestly it did seem high. 

I'd likely assume 35% efficiency if it's open cycle. What's the price of gas in Australia? 

"Using the ACCC methodology a JKM of $14.31/MMBtu translates to a Wallumbilla netback of A$15.99/GJ and A$18.44/GJ delivered to Melbourne so spot prices are currently a bit higher than LNG netbacks," Graeme Bethune, Chief Executive Officer of EnergyQuest said. "A A$20/GJ gas price in Melbourne at the LNG netback would imply a JKM of US$15.62/MMBtu," he added.

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/070721-australian-domestic-natural-gas-prices-jump-on-winter-demand-outages

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

48 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

"Using the ACCC methodology a JKM of $14.31/MMBtu translates to a Wallumbilla netback of A$15.99/GJ and A$18.44/GJ delivered to Melbourne so spot prices are currently a bit higher than LNG netbacks," Graeme Bethune, Chief Executive Officer of EnergyQuest said. "A A$20/GJ gas price in Melbourne at the LNG netback would imply a JKM of US$15.62/MMBtu," he added.

https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/070721-australian-domestic-natural-gas-prices-jump-on-winter-demand-outages

That is... astoundingly high. Wow. That translates to a minimum production cost of $480 a ton for anhydrous ammonia. BEFORE desulfurization, water, labor, electricity, and interest. 

EDIT: For reference, that stuff typically sells for around $500 in the U.S. because of cheap gas. I like it as a benchmark reference commodity when talking about gas prices. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by KeyboardWarrior

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 7/13/2021 at 7:41 PM, turbguy said:

You realize that fossil generation taps those same "third world" resources, no

When best practices are used, which are to a far greater extent in advanced countries, there is a huge difference than when the solar panels or wind turbines are made in China etc. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, KeyboardWarrior said:

That is... astoundingly high. Wow. That translates to a minimum production cost of $480 a ton for anhydrous ammonia. BEFORE desulfurization, water, labor, electricity, and interest. 

EDIT: For reference, that stuff typically sells for around $500 in the U.S. because of cheap gas. I like it as a benchmark reference commodity when talking about gas prices. 

That's why the private sector didn't want to build the natural gas plants that the gov't demanded. They are stranded assets. Coal is also about to die.

Amid wholesale prices hitting six-year lows and the flood of renewables into the market, Origin has already temporarily halted output at one unit of its huge baseload coal plant at Eraring on NSW’s Central Coast.

Brett Redman, chief executive of Origin’s rival, AGL Energy, last week said some black-coal power generators were struggling to cover their cash costs.

More than $1 billion has been wiped off the value of Queensland government-owned fossil fuel generators as falling wholesale electricity prices slash generator profit.

“The market is facing a tidal wave of new supply, much greater than anything government authorities or market analysts forecast or even contemplated just two years ago,” Mr Edis said.

“The supply added from 2018 to 2025 equates to over a third of the entire demand in the [National Energy Market], and more than eight times the annual generation of the Liddell coal-fired power station in NSW.“

The new report and industry comments echo Energy Security Board chairman Kerry Schott warning earlier this month that coal power plants were “going broke” and some risked closing four or five years before the end of their rated life.

This is why the NSW government’s Electricity Infrastructure Roadmap provides “an essential and timely response”, Mr Edis said, to ensure coal plant capacity is replaced before they are shut down.

Even without factoring in the expected 12 gigawatts of renewable energy backed up by two gigawatts of storage, such as pumped hydro and batteries, from the NSW road map, announcements of proposed wind and solar projects tracked by co-authors Mr Edis and Johanna Bowyer showed estimates of future power supply from renewables in the NEM to be understated.

https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/up-to-five-coal-plants-unprofitable-by-2025-20210222-p574uz

[RichieRich216 + 454]

21 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You are so clueless, you think this is a negative. This is great news for the EV world. 3rd party mechanics will be able to make cheap repairs on EVs just like they do today on ICE.

 

If you REALLY thing an auto manufacturer is going to allow 3rd party repairs on a tech advanced product, CHECK OUT THE WARRANTY RULES….Talking about clueless…

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

40 minutes ago, RichieRich216 said:

If you REALLY thing an auto manufacturer is going to allow 3rd party repairs on a tech advanced product, CHECK OUT THE WARRANTY RULES….Talking about clueless…

Ah, must be a good little slave to the megacorporation because...... oh right, only THEY can fix stuff...

As if fixing stuff is difficult(time consuming yes, difficult, no)...

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

50 minutes ago, RichieRich216 said:

If you REALLY thing an auto manufacturer is going to allow 3rd party repairs on a tech advanced product, CHECK OUT THE WARRANTY RULES….Talking about clueless…

So let's be clear. If you are under warranty then the work is done for free. If you are out of warranty then you don't care. This is only about the situation where the damage is not covered by your warranty. In that case third party repair does not by default void the warranty. Only bad work.

Note that Tesla is also authorizing 3rd party repair facilities to do warranty work.

Maybe you should actually read the warranty before making claims about it. Another swing and a miss for you.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jay McKinsey