Will Iron-Air batteries REALLY change things?

[turbguy + 1,544]

While this appears promising, I've seen a lot of storage claims be not much more than vaporware...

https://formenergy.com/

[Meredith Poor + 895]

Since they are building a full sized installation, it won't take long to find out.

[markslawson + 1,058]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:55 AM, turbguy said:

While this appears promising, I've seen a lot of storage claims be not much more than vaporware...

https://formenergy.com/

Reversible rusting? Well, okay, I'm not against the idea but as MP points out we'll know more when they build a full scale installation.. the web site says that a one megawatt (megawatt hour or megawatt?) requires one acre, but that might come down to three per acre. This seems like a lot. There is a discussion of costs under the media tab but this seems to cover everything but the costs of this new technology. Wait and see. 

[nsdp + 449]

The DOE's Combustion Lab in the Bay area has identified this as the "stable" lithium  battery design  basically because Iron is the most stable nuclear core.  It is not light or compact but that does not matter for grid applications.

Edited August 28, 2021 by nsdp
spelling.

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 8/26/2021 at 3:55 PM, turbguy said:

While this appears promising, I've seen a lot of storage claims be not much more than vaporware...

https://formenergy.com/

It likely was some dark laboratory experiment with batteries like there are always there, air battery is a fancy way of saying a fuel cell

Lithium ion batteries started reseach in the 70 and 80s, it started commercial production in the early 90s in sony laptops, and it didnt become realtively affordable until the last 5 years. and the 20th century was the era of highest economic growth and innovation in all of history.

[turbguy + 1,544]

2 hours ago, Sebastian Meana said:

It likely was some dark laboratory experiment with batteries like there are always there, air battery is a fancy way of saying a fuel cell

Lithium ion batteries started reseach in the 70 and 80s, it started commercial production in the early 90s in sony laptops, and it didnt become realtively affordable until the last 5 years. and the 20th century was the era of highest economic growth and innovation in all of history.

A fuel cell requires fuel and has no "recharge" capability.  It is "one way", only.

A least it is NOT a heat engine!

A battery can go "both ways", and requires no fuel to do so.

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

2 minutes ago, turbguy said:

A fuel cell requires fuel and has no "recharge" capability.  It is "one way", only.

A least it is NOT a heat engine!

A battery can go "both ways", and requires no fuel to do so.

Well depends on how disposed you are to overcomplicate your vehicle, you want a 700BAR compressor along the electric motor when the fuel cell works in reverse?

With large batteries people will most likely charge at a charging station rather than waiting 2 days to charge their car at home, which is pretty much the same as taking 5 minutes to charge hydrogen on a car

[turbguy + 1,544]

9 minutes ago, Sebastian Meana said:

Well depends on how disposed you are to overcomplicate your vehicle, you want a 700BAR compressor along the electric motor when the fuel cell works in reverse?

With large batteries people will most likely charge at a charging station rather than waiting 2 days to charge their car at home, which is pretty much the same as taking 5 minutes to charge hydrogen on a car

If you have a link that describes a fuel cell that works "both ways", I'm all ears!!

I think you misunderstand the proposed air-iron battery. 

As designed, it is too heavy to use for vehicular use. 

It is meant for stationary grid-scale storage.

Edited September 1, 2021 by turbguy

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

5 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I think you misunderstand the proposed air-iron battery. 

As designed, it is too heavy to use for vehicular use. 

It is meant for stationary grid-scale storage.

I dont see it working anytime soon in grid scale, Pumped heat energy storage would be better

[turbguy + 1,544]

41 minutes ago, Sebastian Meana said:

I dont see it working anytime soon in grid scale, Pumped heat energy storage would be better

Pumped heat energy storage works great to store heat energy.

Converting it back to electricity (or useful work) requires a heat engine, which will have at least a 50% loss.

Not grid scale?  I believe we will find out shortly...

"The company’s first project is a 1 MW / 150 MWh pilot installation with Minnesota-based utility Great River Energy, located near the American Iron Range. Form Energy said it expects to have the facility deployed at a Great River Energy power plant by 2023".

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/07/23/multi-day-iron-air-batteries-reach-commercialization-at-one-tenth-of-the-cost-of-lithium/

Edited September 1, 2021 by turbguy

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

Pumped heat energy storage works great to store heat energy.

Converting it back to electricity (or useful work) requires a heat engine, which will have at least a 50% loss.

Not grid scale?  I believe we will find out shortly...

"The company’s first project is a 1 MW / 150 MWh pilot installation with Minnesota-based utility Great River Energy, located near the American Iron Range. Form Energy said it expects to have the facility deployedUK off shore.  at a Great River Energy power plant by 2023".

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/07/23/multi-day-iron-air-batteries-reach-commercialization-at-one-tenth-of-the-cost-of-lithium/

 Lithium Iron batteries are approved for Marine use in Norway and UK offshore platform. and vessels for almost 10 years. https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries LiCo and Li Mn and LiNi are all class 9 fire hazards.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 hours ago, nsdp said:

 Lithium Iron batteries are approved for Marine use in Norway and UK offshore platform. and vessels for almost 10 years. https://www.newcastlesys.com/blog/lithium-ion-vs-lithium-iron-batteries LiCo and Li Mn and LiNi are all class 9 fire hazards.

Lithium iron phospate batteries are different than the Form Energy iron rust battery.

[nsdp + 449]

17 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Lithium iron phospate batteries are different than the Form Energy iron rust battery.

Thanks for the heads up. I have not seen the iron rust then.

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

14 hours ago, turbguy said:

Pumped heat energy storage works great to store heat energy.

Converting it back to electricity (or useful work) requires a heat engine, which will have at least a 50% loss.

Not grid scale?  I believe we will find out shortly...

"The company’s first project is a 1 MW / 150 MWh pilot installation with Minnesota-based utility Great River Energy, located near the American Iron Range. Form Energy said it expects to have the facility deployed at a Great River Energy power plant by 2023".

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2021/07/23/multi-day-iron-air-batteries-reach-commercialization-at-one-tenth-of-the-cost-of-lithium/

Sure, a heat engine has a 50% loss, but you first use a heat pump to take heat from the atmosphere and storing it and those ones can get a 2:1 Coefficient of performance at high temps. It gets a 75% roundtrip efficiency
https://ease-storage.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/EASE_TD_Mechanical_PHES.pdf

[turbguy + 1,544]

16 hours ago, Sebastian Meana said:

Sure, a heat engine has a 50% loss, but you first use a heat pump to take heat from the atmosphere and storing it and those ones can get a 2:1 Coefficient of performance at high temps. It gets a 75% roundtrip efficiency
https://ease-storage.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/EASE_TD_Mechanical_PHES.pdf

As I said, storing heat is great, as long as you don't expect useful work as a result.

For HVAC, or hot water, it's great!

Edited September 3, 2021 by turbguy

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/storage/storing-the-sun-molten-salt-provides-highly-efficient-thermal-storage-52873/ 

Not sure how these solar plants are working out, but they do create electricity. The technology is old but may not be cost effective. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:34 PM, ronwagn said:

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/storage/storing-the-sun-molten-salt-provides-highly-efficient-thermal-storage-52873/ 

Not sure how these solar plants are working out, but they do create electricity. The technology is old but may not be cost effective. 

Ivanpah has been burning more and more NG to compensate for poor performance.  Essentially what it has turned into is a very poor performing NG facility and when the sun is shining gets ~4;1 energy boost for every NG unit of energy used.  Essentially a very big Heat pump Turbine generator.  

As for cost effective?  I'll bet solar panels + LiFePo batteries are much cheaper.  

[turbguy + 1,544]

21 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Ivanpah has been burning more and more NG to compensate for poor performance.  Essentially what it has turned into is a very poor performing NG facility and when the sun is shining gets ~4;1 energy boost for every NG unit of energy used.  Essentially a very big Heat pump Turbine generator.  

As for cost effective?  I'll bet solar panels + LiFePo batteries are much cheaper.  

Just about ANYTHING to get away from "moving parts" has a distinct advantage.

[Boat + 1,324]

I think you guys missed the big battery news. Tesla 4680 battery having problems to the extent that they will be buying BYD China/Buffett batteries for their short term. The word is not out for the midterm. BYD can deliver a $100/kw battery down from let’s say a normal priced $125/kw. No news yet on BYD current grid storage prices. Sanctions? Contrary to media hype does China have the real lead in battery tech but are willing to concede tech to Tesla because of its car tech lead? 
I find it fascinating  Musk and Buffett end up working together along with Chinas and US permission to advance the next worlds cheapest EV. PS, much of this happened on Trumps watch and okeyed by the Biden team. Par usual everyone gets excited about politics while the real movement/deep state, chugs along. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

7 hours ago, Boat said:

I think you guys missed the big battery news. Tesla 4680 battery having problems to the extent that they will be buying BYD China/Buffett batteries for their short term. The word is not out for the midterm. BYD can deliver a $100/kw battery down from let’s say a normal priced $125/kw. No news yet on BYD current grid storage prices. Sanctions? Contrary to media hype does China have the real lead in battery tech but are willing to concede tech to Tesla because of its car tech lead? 
I find it fascinating  Musk and Buffett end up working together along with Chinas and US permission to advance the next worlds cheapest EV. PS, much of this happened on Trumps watch and okeyed by the Biden team. Par usual everyone gets excited about politics while the real movement/deep state, chugs along. 

No. 4680 are high end nickel batteries. BYD makes LFP batteries. Tesla announced last year that they were moving to LFP for grid storage and entry level vehicles, their LFP supplier is CATL who are building the world's largest battery factory next to Giga Shanghai.

Toyota appears to be lining up to use the BYD Blade Battery. I think the rumor confused Tesla and Toyota.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

9 hours ago, Boat said:

I think you guys missed the big battery news. Tesla 4680 battery having problems to the extent that they will be buying BYD China/Buffett batteries for their short term. The word is not out for the midterm. BYD can deliver a $100/kw battery down from let’s say a normal priced $125/kw. No news yet on BYD current grid storage prices. Sanctions? Contrary to media hype does China have the real lead in battery tech but are willing to concede tech to Tesla because of its car tech lead? 
I find it fascinating  Musk and Buffett end up working together along with Chinas and US permission to advance the next worlds cheapest EV. PS, much of this happened on Trumps watch and okeyed by the Biden team. Par usual everyone gets excited about politics while the real movement/deep state, chugs along. 

China has a lead in exactly one battery type, LFP, which cannot be used where the temperatures get below freezing and have a mere 160Wh/kg where they changed NOTHING on the inside of the battery but rather went to an aluminum high pressure package which so far is producing lots of B grade cells... Market is flooded with them if you wish to buy.(assume one in 8 will be 75% of capacity or dead with the rest very tempermental due to temp or high current discharge/charge.  Yes, you can buy A grade as well.  Most are 0.5C max batteries.  Not looking good unless for low grade grid storage or off grid storage applications for DIY'rs.  Will probably eventually fix them, maybe not.  Solyndra tried it and failed which was then bought by the Chinese. Maybe the Chinese can do better in reliability department regarding the higher energy dense LFP in the future.  Been working on it for 10 years; so far, nope.   So, if you want lots of 120Wh/kg LFP, China is doing great in those batteries which has not changed in 20 years.  Likewise dirt cheap 80Wh/kg LFP are still floating around.  ... Otherwise China is mostly a mid tier processor of lithium hydrate, and a producer of mid tier batteries.

Problems with 4680, I am sure.  Question is which type?  No one knows and those who do, ain't chatty as they like their jobs. 

What drivel are you blathering regarding USA presidents.... USA government does not work like that.  And not that it matters as there is nothing advanced or new about what TESLA is doing. 

[Boat + 1,324]

14 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No. 4680 are high end nickel batteries. BYD makes LFP batteries. Tesla announced last year that they were moving to LFP for grid storage and entry level vehicles, their LFP supplier is CATL who are building the world's largest battery factory next to Giga Shanghai.

Toyota appears to be lining up to use the BYD Blade Battery. I think the rumor confused Tesla and Toyota.

According to one report Tesla is testing the LFP battery. Several YouTube Tesla posters were talking about it. So do a Google. 

[Boat + 1,324]

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

China has a lead in exactly one battery type, LFP, which cannot be used where the temperatures get below freezing and have a mere 160Wh/kg where they changed NOTHING on the inside of the battery but rather went to an aluminum high pressure package which so far is producing lots of B grade cells... Market is flooded with them if you wish to buy.(assume one in 8 will be 75% of capacity or dead with the rest very tempermental due to temp or high current discharge/charge.  Yes, you can buy A grade as well.  Most are 0.5C max batteries.  Not looking good unless for low grade grid storage or off grid storage applications for DIY'rs.  Will probably eventually fix them, maybe not.  Solyndra tried it and failed which was then bought by the Chinese. Maybe the Chinese can do better in reliability department regarding the higher energy dense LFP in the future.  Been working on it for 10 years; so far, nope.   So, if you want lots of 120Wh/kg LFP, China is doing great in those batteries which has not changed in 20 years.  Likewise dirt cheap 80Wh/kg LFP are still floating around.  ... Otherwise China is mostly a mid tier processor of lithium hydrate, and a producer of mid tier batteries.

Problems with 4680, I am sure.  Question is which type?  No one knows and those who do, ain't chatty as they like their jobs. 

What drivel are you blathering regarding USA presidents.... USA government does not work like that.  And not that it matters as there is nothing advanced or new about what TESLA is doing. 

The 4680  hasn’t fixed the bugs in the production line. Musk says 10% of problems yet be solved whatever that means. How much of the problem for lower end cars is nickel shortages or is from battery production problems isn’t clear. It may be the 4680 has a problem with both. 
 

My drivel starts with sanctions. You do know about the sanctions. EH? Trumpie no slow EV tech. EH? XI no slow EV tech EH? Buffett, Musk, XI and Biden make good team EH? They all love the trade when they ain’t supposed to be consorting with the enemy. Lol  

Reminds me of Endbridge the oil company. The Canadian giant forcing dirty tar sands on the world. Yep, the biggest shareholder is the Canadian government.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Boat

[Rufus + 15]

6 hours ago, Boat said:

The 4680  hasn’t fixed the bugs in the production line. Musk says 10% of problems yet be solved whatever that means. How much of the problem for lower end cars is nickel shortages or is from battery production problems isn’t clear. It may be the 4680 has a problem with both. 
 

My drivel starts with sanctions. You do know about the sanctions. EH? Trumpie no slow EV tech. EH? XI no slow EV tech EH? Buffett, Musk, XI and Biden make good team EH? They all love the trade when they ain’t supposed to be consorting with the enemy. Lol  

Reminds me of Endbridge the oil company. The Canadian giant forcing dirty tar sands on the world. Yep, the biggest shareholder is the Canadian government.

Enbridge is a pipeline company, not an oil company. They move product to customers that need it from producers that sell it. The only thing they force is the price they charge for the service.

Most shareholders hold it for the dividends they live off.

drivel indeed!

 

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

45 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Enbridge is a pipeline company, not an oil company. They move product to customers that need it from producers that sell it. The only thing they force is the price they charge for the service.

Most shareholders hold it for the dividends they live off.

drivel indeed!

 

It seems like these gas compression and midstream companies have high dividends. Something to do with a common business model? I've always wondered.