Is China Rising or Falling? Has it Enraged the World and Lost its Way? How is their Economy Doing?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/09/09/from-toshiba-to-oki-japan-is-pulling-out-its-electronics-giants-out-of-china-at-breakneck-speed/  Our press doesn't seem to be following foreign affairs much anymore. We need to seek out the truth for ourselves.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Related stories: 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/un-human-rights-experts-extremely-alarmed-by-forced-organ-harvesting-allegations-in-china_3859031.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinese-regimes-forced-organ-harvesting-could-spread-to-other-countries-ngo-director-warns_4004703.html?utm_source=partner&utm_campaign=gp

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Related stories: https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinas-biggest-chipmaker-unable-to-acquire-advanced-chipmaking-equipment-and-technology_4003866.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-evergrande-is-under-threat-what-does-it-mean-for-the-chinese-regime_3535450.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/china-evergrande-is-under-threat-what-does-it-mean-for-the-chinese-regime_3535450.html

Edited September 20, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[RichieRich216 + 454]

China can go FUCK THEMSELFS, They started out making the cheapest shit in the market place, When they were allowed in to the WTO they got serious and started stealing IP from private companies and government’s! I sincerely hope that the population rises up and crush’s these assholes! The small group at the top enriches themselves at the expense of their population! They break international laws and agreements daily and bait the poorest of Countries with their Belt and Road program!

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Related. Lots of good information and graphs here. Muslims are angry about how China treats the Uighurs. It is worth watching. This is from Al Jazeera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAVSqVtNeo

Edited September 20, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[Meredith Poor + 898]

"TFIGlobal is the latest offering from TFI Media Group, the company that runs India’s most loved content platform The Frustrated Indian (TFI)."

Is this really a disinterested correspondent? India has various axes to grind with respect to China.

One of the feeds I get on YouTube is WION, which is an Indian-based media outlet. They routinely blast the US for one or another real or perceived shortcomings. In the last few weeks their commentary has been updating 24/7 as **** happens.

I am seeing stories elsewhere of Samsung and Toshiba closing Chinese plants, sometimes because local Chinese officials are running them off because they want to do something else with the real estate.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Yes these sites use propaganda but also facts or supposed facts. It will be your job to show they are untrue or true. I will present them as I see them. I could give you Bloomberg if you wish. I prefer to add sites that offer a global view that Americans do not get. We are ill supplied on foreign affairs. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Sixty Minutes Australia on how Hong Kong is being crushed by China. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uIOE_nRlxo

Other areas being repressed and severely controlled by China are Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and Xingiang. Han Chinese have been moved into all these areas and now control them. They are now working on areas along the border with India to build roads for military use high in the Himalayas. Their tentacles are all around the world and they have many spies and companies in America. Especially in our universities. 

https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/how_many_confucius_institutes_are_in_the_united_states

[Ecocharger + 1,485]

3 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Sixty Minutes Australia on how Hong Kong is being crushed by China. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uIOE_nRlxo

Other areas being repressed and severely controlled by China are Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and Xingiang. Han Chinese have been moved into all these areas and now control them. They are now working on areas along the border with India to build roads for military use high in the Himalayas. Their tentacles are all around the world and they have many spies and companies in America. Especially in our universities. 

https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/how_many_confucius_institutes_are_in_the_united_states

Do they have powerful friends in high places in Washington?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Do they have powerful friends in high places in Washington?

 

2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Do they have powerful friends in high places in Washington?

From Biden on down and throughout the WOKE corporations and the Democratic party plus RINOS and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce etc. 

 

[Ecocharger + 1,485]

Just now, ronwagn said:

 

From Biden on down and throughout the WOKE corporations and the Democratic party plus RINOS and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce etc. 

 

Biden & Co. sure brought a change of direction into the White House. And then some.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Paywall here but worth glancing at companies moving out of China https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Electronics/Samsung-to-end-Chinese-PC-production-as-costs-soar#:~:text=Samsung will continue to make,at the end of 2019.

For sure, learn about the AUKUS Initiative.

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/09/19/new-zealand-and-canada-have-been-punished-for-their-sinophilia-through-the-aukus-initiative/

Edited September 20, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://news.yahoo.com/china-tech-crackdown-short-seller-says-133759268.html

China going full fascist by tight controll over all types of businesses. This is damaging the income and jobs in many fields. Will investors want to put their savings into a China when they are changing the way they operate to rob from their rich to bring up the living standard of the poor? A noble motive but the trick is in the doing. If successful they will gain more support from the masses of at least 60% of the population making $150 per year. That may help the masses quite a bit but will investments keep coming in? Will they trust a rapidly changing China? Many companies are pulling out of China to look for safer places to produce their products. 

What do you think?

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:36 PM, ronwagn said:

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/09/09/from-toshiba-to-oki-japan-is-pulling-out-its-electronics-giants-out-of-china-at-breakneck-speed/  Our press doesn't seem to be following foreign affairs much anymore. We need to seek out the truth for ourselves.

China is going to Rise at least until 2050, isnt going to fall or collapse like it tends to do before 2070. The writting is on the wall but is still a long time for that
China's state boss is a petrochemical engineer who climbed from poverty to the higher ladders of the PCC, is arguibly extremely intelligent, at least at the height of the Russians governing elite

On the other side on the pond in the USA you have biden, a 80 year old guy, who became president because of circunstantial causes, who's alternative is a complacient billionaire cheeto

China elites thinks in terms of years if not decades, US elites at best think in term of months if not days. The belt and road initiatives gives china leverage over the economic matters of western europe their historically most important allies.

At the Short term china will surpass and be above the US, at the Medium term is far above the Americans, is at the long term when China breaks into civil conflict and the USA gets above China again

This 20min video explains it better

[Wombat1 + 33]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:22 PM, Ecocharger said:

Do they have powerful friends in high places in Washington?

I certainly do. That is all that matters folks. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

13 hours ago, Sebastian Meana said:

China is going to Rise at least until 2050, isnt going to fall or collapse like it tends to do before 2070. The writting is on the wall but is still a long time for that
China's state boss is a petrochemical engineer who climbed from poverty to the higher ladders of the PCC, is arguibly extremely intelligent, at least at the height of the Russians governing elite

On the other side on the pond in the USA you have biden, a 80 year old guy, who became president because of circunstantial causes, who's alternative is a complacient billionaire cheeto

China elites thinks in terms of years if not decades, US elites at best think in term of months if not days. The belt and road initiatives gives china leverage over the economic matters of western europe their historically most important allies.

At the Short term china will surpass and be above the US, at the Medium term is far above the Americans, is at the long term when China breaks into civil conflict and the USA gets above China again

This 20min video explains it better

I think what you are saying has been the long term assumption. Many assumptions based on seeing only the positives going on in China. I believe that America has many of the same flaws however. This was proven by our housing and by our older tech bubbles leading to large stock failures. Democrats are not looking for 3.5 trillion dollars in more spending that will benefit their base but is mainly wasteful. You are absolutely right about our short term thinking. One of those is trying to force the economy to quickly switch to green dreams. Those should change organically with competition. It is becoming apparent to anyone who has the eyes to see. Our housing bubble took place due to federal mandates that allowed people to buy overpriced homes that they could not afford. I just called my congressman and asked him not to support any increase in our national debt limit but rather force the Democrats to force it through in plain sight and without any help from Republicans.

Sebastian, IMHO you really need to follow the websites from India to get a balanced view of what is happening in China. They emphasize all of the faults of China, but none of their own. I realize it is not a balanced approach but it gives the information you will not receive elsewhere. China just had a ten billion dollar failure in expanding their computer chip industry. Their thousands of old dams are requiring repair or rebuilding, they have many discontented groups including their own youth from their middle class. They are now strictly controlling their largest businesses, billionaires, film industry, celebrities, etc. 

China is now setting a different course completely. Xi is now emperor for life and in full control of the CCP. The NEW PLAN is to steal from the rich to give to the poor. To increase the well being of the poorer classes while topping off the cream of wealthy. Biden is trying the same but in a slower way. Do you think that is a good plan to build the power and influence and overall economy of China or the U.S.A?

Some of the problems China is facing:

1. Not enough young workers due to a low fertility rate. Millions of elderly to care for. (Similar to most countries today.) Many of the young workers of the middle class are against working as their parents have. They want shorter work weeks and days, more holidays, and less manual labor. 

2. Thousands of old dams that need trillions of dollars in repairs.

3. Increasing food prices due to flooding of agricultural areas. 

4. Balance of exports and imports that led to discord.

5. One of the highest disparities between the very wealthy and the very poor of any nation in history, especially considering the population of China. India may be worse however. 

6. Loss of popularity and credibility around the world due to its present and historical cruel repression of minority citizens. This is see against Christians, Muslims, Uighurs, Falun Gong, Monglolians, Tibetans, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. 

7. The apparent failure of its Belt and Road initiative in which it has invested tens of billions of dollars. 

8. The rapid changes Xi is enacting, or attempting to enact, will cause many problems and leave many middle class unhappy citizens that want a better life. The poor will have increased expectations that will be very hard to keep up with. 

9. Increased prices of computer chips, copper, coal, oil, etc. These are just a few commodities that China must have to maintain its market share. It hopes to sell more to its own people, but that will take a long time.  

 

[Wombat1 + 33]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:22 AM, ronwagn said:

Yes these sites use propaganda but also facts or supposed facts. It will be your job to show they are untrue or true. I will present them as I see them. I could give you Bloomberg if you wish. I prefer to add sites that offer a global view that Americans do not get. We are ill supplied on foreign affairs. 

Ron, you mentioned something about $12 trillion of printed money in the USA. I think you got that confused with Europe. The ECB has printed about 12 trillion Euro, the Fed is approaching "only" $9 trillion.

Reminds me of an old song that my mother sings every time I mention war with China... "We'll all go together when we go...".... personally, I think the only way to prevent the "financial WMD's" from exploding is to make use of the real ones against China. I am becoming more and more convinced that obliterating China would solve more problems than it creates.

[specinho + 475]

 

4 hours ago, Wombat1 said:

Ron, you mentioned something about $12 trillion of printed money in the USA. I think you got that confused with Europe. The ECB has printed about 12 trillion Euro, the Fed is approaching "only" $9 trillion.

Reminds me of an old song that my mother sings every time I mention war with China... "We'll all go together when we go...".... personally, I think the only way to prevent the "financial WMD's" from exploding is to make use of the real ones against China. I am becoming more and more convinced that obliterating China would solve more problems than it creates.

 

hearsay........ there has been a group of born rich, never starve or live without food, never need to work and never sweat in their lives created much problems like injustice, social unrest, endangering life for nothing, and more. They spread insanity but surprised.... many devoted believers and  followers, from people like themselves, or their friends and relatives.

In order to know what is the right thing to do or the wrong, we need to have the basic ability to differentiate it.

No ethic, no capability, do not show basic gratitude but arrogant, why keep? Why help?

Persons with good ethical value, capable, humble with many other praise worthy characteristics, we should keep, we should help.

It is true that people rarely show their true colours until being tested. We choose mild manner, good followers of instructions for established settings that require no change. We wipe out potential competitors worrying we do not have what it takes to compete fairly.  Small thing, big things. Minor incidences would show who they are inside, if we pay enough attention to details instead of superficial presentation.

Shall there is a wipe out, it must be those of no capability yet unteachable; no ethic, unkind and arrogant; viscous and aggressive to the innocents/ the weak + all undesirable characteristics or inhumane signs one could think off...

The 4 ancient Civilizations existed for a reason. Only those regress to become worse should be wipe out and start over with new era of refreshing world?

 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Wombat1 said:

Ron, you mentioned something about $12 trillion of printed money in the USA. I think you got that confused with Europe. The ECB has printed about 12 trillion Euro, the Fed is approaching "only" $9 trillion.

Reminds me of an old song that my mother sings every time I mention war with China... "We'll all go together when we go...".... personally, I think the only way to prevent the "financial WMD's" from exploding is to make use of the real ones against China. I am becoming more and more convinced that obliterating China would solve more problems than it creates.

I am only in favor of obliterating the CCP.  Thanks for the correction on the 9 trillion of Monopoly money for us and 12 million for China. We must avoid becoming like the Weimar Republic of Deutschland. That could lead to world war to fight depression again!

Edited September 24, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[Ecocharger + 1,485]

On 9/20/2021 at 3:51 PM, ronwagn said:

https://news.yahoo.com/china-tech-crackdown-short-seller-says-133759268.html

China going full fascist by tight controll over all types of businesses. This is damaging the income and jobs in many fields. Will investors want to put their savings into a China when they are changing the way they operate to rob from their rich to bring up the living standard of the poor? A noble motive but the trick is in the doing. If successful they will gain more support from the masses of at least 60% of the population making $150 per year. That may help the masses quite a bit but will investments keep coming in? Will they trust a rapidly changing China? Many companies are pulling out of China to look for safer places to produce their products. 

What do you think?

If Biden & Co. run up the national debt and look for rich people to tax heavily, will that discourage investment in America?  Probably. It may be that China is setting the standard for us to follow.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Boat + 1,325]

16 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I am only in favor of obliterating the CCP.  Thanks for the correction on the 9 trillion of Monopoly money for us and 12 million for China. We must avoid becoming like the Weimar Republic of Deutschland. That could lead to world war to fight depression again!

Isn’t it convenient to forget Trumps 3 billion in borrowed and his tax break when he came into office that he didn’t pay for. Then let’s talk about the further spending on the military as if over 600 billion per year left the US weak. My god, what an idiot. The military can’t even perform an audit. They have no clue where there money goes and how much is lost to corruption. So yea, the CCP is mismanaged, but Americans don’t do much better. It’s down right embarrassing. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Our military spending programs need a complete overhaul by defense experts. I think that aircraft carriers are sitting ducks. We need to plan on unmanned aircraft, high speed missles, submarines, civil defense, subversion (like the Chinese are doing in Canada and the U.S.), etc. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

10 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

If Biden & Co. run up the national debt and look for rich people to tax heavily, will that discourage investment in America?  Probably. It may be that China is setting the standard for us to follow.

Does anyone remember when Japan was the most feared nation due to its fantastic economic growth? That was not that long ago! They overspent themselves and also suffered from lack of reproducing enough children. The new Japanese generations also became soft and not willing to endure hardship for money. America has a similar situation but has lots of immigrants.China's problems are much worse because of their mainly poor popuation, relatively small middle clas and a very rich upper class (similar to ours that is actively in league with our crony capitalists). China has alienated the entire world through its aggression in the South Pacific, its treatment of all its minorities, its Belt and Road abuses, COVID etc. 

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 9/21/2021 at 6:36 PM, ronwagn said:

I think what you are saying has been the long term assumption. Many assumptions based on seeing only the positives going on in China. I believe that America has many of the same flaws however. This was proven by our housing and by our older tech bubbles leading to large stock failures. Democrats are not looking for 3.5 trillion dollars in more spending that will benefit their base but is mainly wasteful. You are absolutely right about our short term thinking. One of those is trying to force the economy to quickly switch to green dreams. Those should change organically with competition. It is becoming apparent to anyone who has the eyes to see. Our housing bubble took place due to federal mandates that allowed people to buy overpriced homes that they could not afford. I just called my congressman and asked him not to support any increase in our national debt limit but rather force the Democrats to force it through in plain sight and without any help from Republicans.

Sebastian, IMHO you really need to follow the websites from India to get a balanced view of what is happening in China. They emphasize all of the faults of China, but none of their own. I realize it is not a balanced approach but it gives the information you will not receive elsewhere. China just had a ten billion dollar failure in expanding their computer chip industry. Their thousands of old dams are requiring repair or rebuilding, they have many discontented groups including their own youth from their middle class. They are now strictly controlling their largest businesses, billionaires, film industry, celebrities, etc. 

China is now setting a different course completely. Xi is now emperor for life and in full control of the CCP. The NEW PLAN is to steal from the rich to give to the poor. To increase the well being of the poorer classes while topping off the cream of wealthy. Biden is trying the same but in a slower way. Do you think that is a good plan to build the power and influence and overall economy of China or the U.S.A?

Some of the problems China is facing:

1. Not enough young workers due to a low fertility rate. Millions of elderly to care for. (Similar to most countries today.) Many of the young workers of the middle class are against working as their parents have. They want shorter work weeks and days, more holidays, and less manual labor. 

2. Thousands of old dams that need trillions of dollars in repairs.

3. Increasing food prices due to flooding of agricultural areas. 

4. Balance of exports and imports that led to discord.

5. One of the highest disparities between the very wealthy and the very poor of any nation in history, especially considering the population of China. India may be worse however. 

6. Loss of popularity and credibility around the world due to its present and historical cruel repression of minority citizens. This is see against Christians, Muslims, Uighurs, Falun Gong, Monglolians, Tibetans, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc. 

7. The apparent failure of its Belt and Road initiative in which it has invested tens of billions of dollars. 

8. The rapid changes Xi is enacting, or attempting to enact, will cause many problems and leave many middle class unhappy citizens that want a better life. The poor will have increased expectations that will be very hard to keep up with. 

9. Increased prices of computer chips, copper, coal, oil, etc. These are just a few commodities that China must have to maintain its market share. It hopes to sell more to its own people, but that will take a long time.  

 

Im going to believe that china is falling apart , when it falls apart, meanwhile there's still a lot of china for at least another 30 years, i'm going to assess your points in order to clarify some things

1-The whole not enough young workers things is not a problem yet, it is a problem in europe and japan because they wasted all their capital on the welfare state, China's welfare state is insignifcant, if china has to kill 400 million elder people in order to prevent their population and economy from collapsing they will, nevermind the real peak of productivity and consumption is between the ages of 35-to-55, if you dont tax their income into wasteful spending, china still hass a sizeable chunk of people between 20 and 45 like, 55 0 million people.

nevermind china can use the savings of their population which they will do it wether their people like it or not to increase automation, and productivity and all things that come with that, increasing labour cost increase the incentive to automation, people wouldnt have invented the diggers if slaves were free to feed and wasnt prohibited.

2-The thousands of old dams is not that big of a problem dams are relatively easy and cheap to repair, Japan has also thousands of century old dams that are still working perfectly fine, not only that china in order to prevent civil conflicts keep their population busy by building infrastructure, wether necessary or not.

3-They can import food from other places, and whats more use that as leverage against countries from which they import food and they see china as a menace, for example, Brazil and Chile, two countries that you will se getting more and more under chinese influence, in the case of brazil since is a relatively low quality high cost producer.

4-Sure, the export import imbalance might be a problem, the question goes to how much their currency is worth, it could be worth way more due to all the stuff they export, or way less because all the money they print, nobody knows, if they leave their currency appreciate then china can consume more of the stuff they produce, import more stuff and use that as a political negotiation tool to preserve their asses for decades to come.

5-The uyghur genocide is bad for sure, but countries will turn their eyes away and ignore it if they can get a trade deal for it, Saudi Arabia will not care more for the Uyghurs than they care for the Palestinians. in general business is bussiness, The uyghur genocide, like the tibetan genocide,  is another step of the long history of genocide and bloodspill in china's Sinicisation effort , converting minorities to all aspects of the dominant chinese han culture, which is a 4 step program
First one: Protect your people because there are barbarians on the border
Step two: Conquer the barbarian and "civilize them"by any means  you have
Step three: The barbarian stops being a barbarian, they are not distinct enough from you to be barbarians, they are now your people, and you must protect your people, because there are barbarians on the borders.

6-The inequality factor is very true, China's interior is 700 million people that live in poverty and misery outside the glamour of the coastal or southern city, but their 1984 police state, social credit,  control tactics and artificial growth might be enough to buy china a few decades of economic growth befor those internal issues tear them appart.

7-The belt and road hasnt failed yet, because isnt working yet, but the idea is simple use it in order to get the support of other countries, create markets for the export and import of goods and  to use that as a leverage against other countries, or organization, for example the increasing leverage they are winning over Italy, and the balkans, it takes one of 27 countries in the EU to fully veto anything, for example Greece which is in dire need and lost 55% of its gdp since 2008 is eager to shut down any anti-china or climate policy the EU thinks off.

8-Xi-Jinping decision making abilities will be seeing to wether they choose to rescue evergrande, which might cause a collapse in the real estate price, however china has enough control over their economy that they might be able to start from scratch or prevent an economic depression or giant market crash, altho they may cause one in the wider world since the economy  today is so interconnected, if they can get real estate prices down like at least they said they want the evergrande collapse is a great oportunity.

9-Those things always fluctuate in price, but the question is id their cost really increased or is the currency that is loosing value, because since 2008 the world has printed massive ammounts of money that spilled into the housing and stock market, and might just be heading their way into the real economy and causing inflation.



The thing to consider is that china is the polar opposie to india, india is the exact opposite of china in many ways, and the only reason people compare them is because they both have well over a billion people,

-China is supercentralized and authoritarians, india is one of the purest forms of democracy and is called a subcontinent because is many countries into one
-india doesn allows concentration of power, that means is hard to cordinate india at mass scale, but also means no one single person can turn the country to dust.
-China has an obsession with unification and homogeneity, to make everyone be and look the same, india doesnt care less for that is over 100 languages 7 or 8 religions, and various ethnicities
-China can be tear apart from their internal imbalances if they are exploited from the insides, but since china signed an implicit agreement with their population where they exchange any freedom for economic growth while there's growth there's "happines",
-India doesnt, that means that if theres a crash in india is not going to collapse
-India can consume what they produce, which means they arent exposed to externalities as much but it means they dont have that much leverage over the rest of the planet.

india shouldnt exist, but it exist, and has existen in their current policultural, multireligious state for the last IDK, 4000 years? maybe more?, and then it can exist in that way for another 4000 years, China has been the land of civil conflict authoritarian emperors and genocides for the last 5000 years, is going to collapse before the end of the century but there's still a lot of century ahead of us.

But most importantly India and China dont represent any menace to one another, the fears of a Sino-Indian war are way overblown, there's the himalayas in the middle having a convoy of military supplies going through the himalayas is pretty much impossible, and radars would detect one's another cargo planes and put them down like flies, if you cant hold ground you cant conquer, amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics

The real menace that can represent a war with india is pakistan, who's under chinese influeence, but if there's a war between india and pakistan will be a week long one, with a limited nuclear exchange, 500 million people die, pakistan dissapears, india would still have over a billion people, Pakistan would be annexed east of the Indus river by India, and Westward by Iran.

The real counterbalance for china would be Southeast Asia, Japan, Korea and Russia who see china as a potential menace, and who can join forces to block china and starve them and freeze them to death, to avoid that you will see China getting more influence under chile until they turn it pretty much into a Chinese naval protectorate.

China will collapse? eventually, but is still a long way off.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Sebastian Meana

[ronwagn + 6,290]

You made some excellent points. There is truth in all of them. I am dubious of China making great inroads in South America because of the cultural differences but money may be enough to buy all the influence they need.

There are doubts as to how monolithic the Chinese Communist Party is. Xi wants to turn inward "supposedly". I think he wants both inward and worldwide action. He even has a hold in Canada of all places. Plus Biden's version of America. 

I see worldwide opposition to China but also worldwide subversion by China. I think it is important for the whole world to take action against Chinese agression, but not be hostile and anger the Chinese people who are caught in a web made by the CCP.