Microbes can provide sustainable hydrocarbons for the petrochemical industry

[Eric Gagen + 713]

On 11/24/2021 at 11:40 PM, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Not convinced about ethanol either. Plants used for massive production thereof (corn, sugarcane, etc), tend to generate massive amounts of straw-like cellulose-rich waste, which takes a lot longer than one season to "biodegrade" (rot) Therefore, the only practical means of getting rid of it quick is to burn it.

Ethanol for corn, I'll agree is marginal at best.  Ethanol from Sugarcane is very robust, and basically makes money (and energy) hand over fist wherever the agricultural conditions are suitable.  The yield is ~ 6 times better than the ethanol yield from corn, after accounting for the fact that sugarcane is a very energy intensive crop to grow.  On a net energy basis, for every  liter/gallon of diesel worth of fuel that is required for fertilizer, tractors, transport, processing, etc.  sugarcane produces about 10 liters of equivalent energy liquid fuel.  For sugarcane,  The leftover cellulose IS burnt, but not necessarily the way you might think.  A small amount of it is burn in the field,  but the vast majority is burnt in/at the sugar cane mills.  After the stalks are diced up, and the sugar containing juice is pressed out, then steam extracted, the 'bagasse' (technical term for the mass of stuff left over) is burnt in a co-generation plant, producing electricity to run the mill (and for the grid) process heat for sugar production, and steam for sugar production.  It's actually highly efficient, and workable anywhere that there is plenty of suitable land available.  Brazil is the primary example.  Just as with many conventional hydrocarbon production techniques there are large scaling issues.  The various Caribbean islands (except maybe Cuba), as well suited as they are for growing sugar cane, simply aren't big enough to grow enough sugar cane to make it worth the investment in refining equipment required to make it worthwhile.  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

23 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

What I say is obfuscated by the crop rotation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilth#Rotation

That is, corn is not grown on the same patch every year

Actually, there are several ways of farming where corn is grown on same land nearly every year.  Other ways the corn is only grown one out of ~4 or 5 years, but by going the regenerative agriculture route, total amount of production drops drastically and Ethanol as a fuel source from plant matter evaporates into Utopian delusions.  Remove Fertilizers from Fossil fuels and modern ag, DIES in VERY short period of time(4 years maximum)

One must feed the soil.  Monoculture does NOT do this at all.  Best folks have come across is a combination of twin skip rows combined with quick movement grazing techniques which "only" creates about a 50%-->30% reduction in plant matter grown over an entire multiyear cycle(at least 5 years or more of crop rotation). 

In short, pretending we will get fuels dedicated to a single plant source will NEVER WORK as we will NEVER have the concentration of grown plant matter in a single spot for this to work.  Now maybe the USA, parts of France/Nehterlands/Germany could do this with their massive waterway networks, but everyone else?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, lets not all fall down laughing now.  Even then we are talking a 50% reduction in fuels produced at even today's levels.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

28 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

Ethanol for corn, I'll agree is marginal at best.  Ethanol from Sugarcane is very robust, and basically makes money (and energy) hand over fist wherever the agricultural conditions are suitable. 

Remove the fertilizer made by fossil fuels and the sugarcane industry dies a quick death down to a fraction of what exists today.  

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

1 hour ago, Eric Gagen said:

Ethanol for corn, I'll agree is marginal at best.  Ethanol from Sugarcane is very robust, and basically makes money (and energy) hand over fist wherever the agricultural conditions are suitable.  The yield is ~ 6 times better than the ethanol yield from corn, after accounting for the fact that sugarcane is a very energy intensive crop to grow.  On a net energy basis, for every  liter/gallon of diesel worth of fuel that is required for fertilizer, tractors, transport, processing, etc.  sugarcane produces about 10 liters of equivalent energy liquid fuel.  For sugarcane,  The leftover cellulose IS burnt, but not necessarily the way you might think.  A small amount of it is burn in the field,  but the vast majority is burnt in/at the sugar cane mills.  After the stalks are diced up, and the sugar containing juice is pressed out, then steam extracted, the 'bagasse' (technical term for the mass of stuff left over) is burnt in a co-generation plant, producing electricity to run the mill (and for the grid) process heat for sugar production, and steam for sugar production.  It's actually highly efficient, and workable anywhere that there is plenty of suitable land available.  Brazil is the primary example.  Just as with many conventional hydrocarbon production techniques there are large scaling issues.  The various Caribbean islands (except maybe Cuba), as well suited as they are for growing sugar cane, simply aren't big enough to grow enough sugar cane to make it worth the investment in refining equipment required to make it worthwhile.  

What way might I think? We discussed bagasse, corn stover and even bamboo elsewhere in this thread. All the reinforced grasses have the same problem - tough silicates. Which gum up burners and break woodchipping equipment. If the cellulose thus produced were higher quality, they'd pulp it or turn it into "Europellet" style retail fuel. But they can't, or at least not in an affordable way I am aware of.

A few years back, there was talk of GMO sugar beet that was to be more efficient than sugar cane even in tropical climes. Allegedly, this is what the Chinese bought out Syngenta for. Than, the rights to the product were quietly spun off to some seemingly insignificant Danish kolkhoz. Dunno what 's up with that? They didn't say they didn't succeed. Sugar beet leaves no problematic straw behind, only suitable animal fodder.

The cheaper you make ethanol, the more you can sell for human consumption. Why burn it, if you can drink it yourself. Is it a free market, or what?

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[SUZNV + 1,197]

22 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Nobody is actually interested in renewable transition? It is purely a neocolonial plot of taxing the developing economies for developing, while also sneakily expanding the domestic taxation base at the cost of the middle class.

My sentiments exactly about the middle class part, but wouldn't EU want to escape from the petrol dollar system and get as much energy independent as possible when they advocate for sustainable energy in the first place? IMO they simply export pollution to developing countries, but couldn't see how they can tax China or India or OPEC+. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

3 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Remove the fertilizer made by fossil fuels and the sugarcane industry dies a quick death down to a fraction of what exists today.  

Speaking of which. Russia banned export of ammonia-based fertilizers till well into 2022, because the feedstock is natural gas. Those are the only ones that are made from "fossil fuels" AFAIK, the rest mined directly.

However, now that EU doesn't talk to Belarus anymore, Russia is also the overwhelmingly largest exporter of potassium variety (Uralkali + Belaruskali contraband)

https://www.nationmaster.com/nmx/ranking/potash-fertilizer-production

The only remaining beacon of hope for the free world appears to be Canada. I think the British tabloids are missing out on a great next story on the evils of the Putin regime here, but I am sure they'll get there in due time.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

11 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

My sentiments exactly about the middle class part, but wouldn't EU want to escape from the petrol dollar system and get as much energy independent as possible when they advocate for sustainable energy in the first place? IMO they simply export pollution to developing countries, but couldn't see how they can tax China or India or OPEC+. 

There was never really a petrodollar, but only petrogold. The only meaningful way to reliably clear millions gazillions of dollars worth of cash transactions is to go into a commodities exchange backroom and to have their broker move a few bars of gold to your brokers safe deposit box. If you were to use electronic dollars, the Feds will give you hell lasting days to months. (or simply taking all the cash

This is the root cause of the sudden interest in the Aussies, I presume

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/data/historical-mine-production

There is obviously a situation where there is a lot more margin calls on various gold derivatives in US and UK than there is physical gold to back them. Just like GAME STOP stock, only bigger

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

25 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Actually, there are several ways of farming where corn is grown on same land nearly every year.  Other ways the corn is only grown one out of ~4 or 5 years, but by going the regenerative agriculture route, total amount of production drops drastically and Ethanol as a fuel source from plant matter evaporates into Utopian delusions.  Remove Fertilizers from Fossil fuels and modern ag, DIES in VERY short period of time(4 years maximum)

One must feed the soil.  Monoculture does NOT do this at all.  Best folks have come across is a combination of twin skip rows combined with quick movement grazing techniques which "only" creates about a 50%-->30% reduction in plant matter grown over an entire multiyear cycle(at least 5 years or more of crop rotation). 

In short, pretending we will get fuels dedicated to a single plant source will NEVER WORK as we will NEVER have the concentration of grown plant matter in a single spot for this to work.  Now maybe the USA, parts of France/Nehterlands/Germany could do this with their massive waterway networks, but everyone else?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, lets not all fall down laughing now.  Even then we are talking a 50% reduction in fuels produced at even today's levels.

All the most promising biofuel plants produce some kind of oily toxic waste, The best known one is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha

but they keep discovering worse yet more productive ones. This stuff DOES NOT get into human food supply like palm oil, and can grow on crap soil, irrigated by grey or black water directly. Again, if anybody was seriously interested in biofuels and helping the poor countries, that's what they'd invest in.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

23 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

I am not available of any road vehicles that use LNG directly, though. They do have a railroad locomotive that does.

UPDATE: https://uic.org/events/IMG/pdf/03_rzd_natural_gas_trains_ivanov.pdf

They are gas turbine / electric hybrids, so it just a ploy to reintroduce turbine locomotives to haul more freight.

No Andrei, Russia has natural gas trucks and plenty of natural gas to fuel them. China is the leader in using natural gas trucks. When is the last time you were in Russia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Russia

[ronwagn + 6,290]

46 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

All the most promising biofuel plants produce some kind of oily toxic waste, The best known one is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha

but they keep discovering worse yet more productive ones. This stuff DOES NOT get into human food supply like palm oil, and can grow on crap soil, irrigated by grey or black water directly. Again, if anybody was seriously interested in biofuels and helping the poor countries, that's what they'd invest in.

It requires a warm climate and has been tried in India etc. I don't know how successfully.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

Ethanol for corn, I'll agree is marginal at best.  Ethanol from Sugarcane is very robust, and basically makes money (and energy) hand over fist wherever the agricultural conditions are suitable.  The yield is ~ 6 times better than the ethanol yield from corn, after accounting for the fact that sugarcane is a very energy intensive crop to grow.  On a net energy basis, for every  liter/gallon of diesel worth of fuel that is required for fertilizer, tractors, transport, processing, etc.  sugarcane produces about 10 liters of equivalent energy liquid fuel.  For sugarcane,  The leftover cellulose IS burnt, but not necessarily the way you might think.  A small amount of it is burn in the field,  but the vast majority is burnt in/at the sugar cane mills.  After the stalks are diced up, and the sugar containing juice is pressed out, then steam extracted, the 'bagasse' (technical term for the mass of stuff left over) is burnt in a co-generation plant, producing electricity to run the mill (and for the grid) process heat for sugar production, and steam for sugar production.  It's actually highly efficient, and workable anywhere that there is plenty of suitable land available.  Brazil is the primary example.  Just as with many conventional hydrocarbon production techniques there are large scaling issues.  The various Caribbean islands (except maybe Cuba), as well suited as they are for growing sugar cane, simply aren't big enough to grow enough sugar cane to make it worth the investment in refining equipment required to make it worthwhile.  

Thanks for the details! I was just in Hawaii and they said that they are no longer able to burn sugar cane in the fields. Apparently none is grown for biofuel due to the green policies in Hawaii. They would benefit most from regular deliveries of LNG for electrical production. Maui has a few wind turbines which are an eyesore. Brazil uses a lot of dual fuel vehicles that use ethanol and gasoline. Some trifuel using natural gas if I remember correctly. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

37 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

No Andrei, Russia has natural gas trucks and plenty of natural gas to fuel them. China is the leader in using natural gas trucks. When is the last time you were in Russia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_Russia

Damn it, those are CNG! Nothing unusual. Show me a cryogenic LNG using truck, So far, the smallest widget I found which uses it is a turbine-driven locomotive.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

10 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Damn it, those are CNG! Nothing unusual. Show me a cryogenic LNG using truck, So far, the smallest widget I found which uses it is a turbine-driven locomotive.

OK, maybe Russia doesn't have any. They should. I will try to find some for you. CNG is actually better IMHO and can probably refuel all over Russia. The new technology on CNG tanks is far better than the old and the possible range is excellent. 

https://www.glpautogas.info/en/russia-lng-lorries.html

Edited November 27, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

43 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

It requires a warm climate and has been tried in India etc. I don't know how successfully.

From state-of-the art

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_biofuel_crop_yields

These compare favorably to oil palm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triadica_sebifera

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copaifera_langsdorffii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millettia_pinnata

The last one is currently grown in India and Bangladesh, but does not appear to have a dependence on tropics. All are proper trees, not grasses. Though the last one is somehow also a variety of pea, so I am sure you can grow it instead of soy

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

6 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

OK, maybe Russia doesn't have any. They should. I will try to find some for you. CNG is actually better IMHO and can probably refuel all over Russia. The new technology on CNG tanks is far better than the old and the possible range is excellent. 

https://www.glpautogas.info/en/russia-lng-lorries.html

It is a trade-off. LNG is effectively a low-pressure system forgiving of leaks.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

It is a trade-off. LNG is effectively a low-pressure system forgiving of leaks.

LNG has some advantages in colder weather maybe. 

https://im-mining.com/2020/10/14/russian-copper-converts-12-komatsu-730e-trucks-lng-hybrid-operation-mikheevsky-gok/ Trucks but big ones. We make bigger ones in Decatur Illinois. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

12 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

OK, maybe Russia doesn't have any. They should. I will try to find some for you. CNG is actually better IMHO and can probably refuel all over Russia. The new technology on CNG tanks is far better than the old and the possible range is excellent. 

https://www.glpautogas.info/en/russia-lng-lorries.html

Got the Polish suspect

Used to supply bus terminals. A lot of times, those also burn the gas they cart, same as tanker ships. (Dunno if they do in the Polish case yet, but it only makes sense)

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

5 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

LNG has some advantages in colder weather maybe. 

https://im-mining.com/2020/10/14/russian-copper-converts-12-komatsu-730e-trucks-lng-hybrid-operation-mikheevsky-gok/ Trucks but big ones. We make bigger ones in Decatur Illinois. 

BelAZ of Belarus makes the largest mining truck, rated for 450t

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BelAZ#Mining_dump_trucks_2

Those are actually quite easy to convert to just about any marine engine. The actual propulsion is achieved by electric motors in the wheel hubs!

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Got the Polish suspect

Used to supply bus terminals. A lot of times, those also burn the gas they cart, same as tanker ships. (Dunno if they do in the Polish case yet, but it only makes sense)

I dunno either but trains have done it, but not common here yet. I haven't checked but Buffet owns a railway and probably will eventually. Biogas LNG maybe.

Smaller Russian trucks? Or GMC?

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

4 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

BelAZ of Belarus makes the largest mining truck, rated for 450t

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BelAZ#Mining_dump_trucks_2

Those are actually quite easy to convert to just about any marine engine. The actual propulsion is achieved by electric motors in the wheel hubs!

https://www.lectura-specs.com/en/pages/world-top10-biggest-mining-dump-trucks 

I concede. Belarus should be proud. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC5xzmeYP74

 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:16 AM, ronwagn said:

I dunno either but trains have done it, but not common here yet. I haven't checked but Buffet owns a railway and probably will eventually. Biogas LNG maybe.

Smaller Russian trucks? Or GMC?

 

These appear to be carrying LPG/propane? No problem to liquefy and keep liquid.

The inscription mysteriously says "gaseous motor fuel" which could also be CNG or LNG, they don't say

https://www.gazprom.com/about/production/ngv-fuel/

Is a name of their subsidiary set up for marketing natural gas derived fuels for vehicle use. Also exist in Germany and Czech Republic, they claim.

UPDATE: the trucks on your picture themselves are branded Renault.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[ronwagn + 6,290]

7 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

These appear to be carrying LPG/propane? No problem to liquefy and keep liquid.

The inscription mysteriously says "gaseous motor fuel" which could also be CNG or LNG, they don't say

https://www.gazprom.com/about/production/ngv-fuel/

Is a name of their subsidiary set up for marketing natural gas derived fuels for vehicle use. Also exist in Germany and Czech Republic, they claim.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

From state-of-the art

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_biofuel_crop_yields

These compare favorably to oil palm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triadica_sebifera

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copaifera_langsdorffii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millettia_pinnata

The last one is currently grown in India and Bangladesh, but does not appear to have a dependence on tropics. All are proper trees, not grasses. Though the last one is somehow also a variety of pea, so I am sure you can grow it instead of soy

I think part of the trick is using all parts of the seed. The fat for fuel and the protein for feed or human food. The cellulose for fuel or whatever. In California rice field burning is now forbidden. I don't know what they are doing with it now. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Thanks for the details! I was just in Hawaii and they said that they are no longer able to burn sugar cane in the fields. Apparently none is grown for biofuel due to the green policies in Hawaii. They would benefit most from regular deliveries of LNG for electrical production. Maui has a few wind turbines which are an eyesore. Brazil uses a lot of dual fuel vehicles that use ethanol and gasoline. Some trifuel using natural gas if I remember correctly. 

They need to plant and worship the diesel tree!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copaifera_langsdorffii

It's got wood actually soaking with fuel, not the seed. Tap it like maple syrup! Apparently, also a great flotation aid due to high porosity. Aloha!

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

3 hours ago, SUZNV said:

My sentiments exactly about the middle class part, but wouldn't EU want to escape from the petrol dollar system and get as much energy independent as possible when they advocate for sustainable energy in the first place? IMO they simply export pollution to developing countries, but couldn't see how they can tax China or India or OPEC+. 

They'd love to become energy independent, but whatever energy they need always ends up being in Russia somehow. Even firewood

https://twitter.com/rt_com/status/1444089746896998401

Actually, it turned out to be no joke at all. Europellets (EN+) are largely made out of Siberian spruce. You need coniferous softwood to do it right, Often overlooked, but critical component of German energy mix. You usually expect to pay 1/2 the price of the same worth of heating energy compared to heating oil.

https://www.carmen-ev.de/service/marktueberblick/marktpreise-energieholz/marktpreise-pellets/

This is an example of offloading pollution you mentioned, but also offloading other risks. See, wood dust this dry is a very bad explosion hazard. Once glued together, it still burns hotter than metallurgical anthracite coal (5% moisture, no ash at all) A lot of large coal plants, especially in UK, noticed and converted to the stuff. If it wasn't about such industrial needs, there'd be no reason whatsoever to get pellets drier than anthracite (6%-8% moisture), which takes a lot of heat energy apart from being a major explosion and fire hazard. Allegedly, the European customer enjoys the entirely smokeless burn. In other words, the customer is a moron, who cannot tell smoke from water steam.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Andrei Moutchkine

[Eric Gagen + 713]

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Remove the fertilizer made by fossil fuels and the sugarcane industry dies a quick death down to a fraction of what exists today.  

Sugarcane is exothermic enough that you could make the fertilizer using the fuel from the crop as the feedstock for the fertilizer plant, and still have a net win.  However it's more profitable to use fertilizer made from natural gas as a feedstock for that process, because the fuel that results from growing sugarcane is a liquid hydrocarbon with a price premium on a net energy basis of ~ 5:1 over natural gas.