El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: "You" contributed jack to liberating them. The Soviets did that. The Russians jumped into China only after the US did all the heavy lifting defeating the Japanese. And started in China years before., because the Russians were still haunted by the Straights of Tushima and Port Arthur. Yes, the US contributed mightily to liberating China, and Russia was johnny-come-lately to the party. Ostensibly, to take more territory, not liberate China 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, ronwagn said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor It says those were the local Chinese flying American aircraft. Actually, the KMT and thus Taiwan in today's terms. They only flew fighters/interceptors, no bombers though. So says your own article. Anyway, not exactly sure what you were trying to prove. We've discussed the Holodomor story before. This is where you propaganda picked up where the Nazis left off. The 1932-33 famine is notable in being a) the last one b) the one where nobody helped. The USSR was under economic blockade. You don't have easy access to the original materials, but it is pretty obvious that the Bolsheviks did everything in their power to get emergency provisions by various contraband means. And did. Nobody Western would sell them anything, even for gold. Only in exchange for grain! So, the famine had some foreign help. Previously, there were actually notable American disaster relief. Here is a painting by famous painter Aivazovsky dedicated to American help in 1892 And here is entirely fictitious story about it being banned even today https://allinnet.info/history/two-paintings-by-aivazovsky-banned-in-russia-since-1892/ (It is actually pretty well known, as the like the only time the guy drew something not involving the sea and ships of sail) Also check out the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Famine_Relief_Act about the relief effort spearheaded by Herbert Hoover during the 1921-1922 famine (before he became POTUS) Exhaustive list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union Potential further leads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_in_modern_politics Note how there's been a recent European-driven flareup, in the period of 2007-2013. USA discovered this rich topic as yearly as 1984 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Commission_on_the_Ukraine_Famine Personally, I find this to be largely BS. Because, the grain seizures came to immediate stop as soon as it became obvious that people are dying in numbers. There was a drought, too. They did duly note that the American government did jack about it. Anyhow, the original Soviet archives on the subject are public. In the end, you can only be sure by studying the original materials. Note that even the US commission does not support the dubious claim that the Soviet government was somehow specifically singling out Ukrainians to kill, only that they were looking to seize more grain. The practice was actually started not by Bolsheviks, but by Tsar during WWI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka So, in a way there were also "kulaks hoarding grain" As in peasants not interested in selling the grain to the state monopoly at a fixed price? Seems like a smart thing to do, if you only could get away with it. Like not turning in any gold bullion you owned to the Nixon government when they told you to? Or poor little BP never giving any natural gas to Gazprom and SOCAR (the Azeri state) and pumping it all into the well instead to get more oil? 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: You would've seen the Soviets going through you instead. Patton should've stuck to what he knew best - designing the most impressive outfits for the tanker corps https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/b3ctbv/general_george_patton_wearing_his_proposed/ No, not really. Can't say he was any good at that, either. Tried very hard though. If not for the Cold War, they would've come up with some other reasons to spend more on dubious armaments. "Them" including your "Liberals" too, BTW. You don't really have a party of peace. It is as American as apple pie. He'd Kick Russian Behind as well as he did German. Supply lines were the only thing that ever slowed him up. The man only knew how to win. The only reason the Russians lasted that long into the war was the Supplies the US sent lend-lease to Russia when the Germans had them on ropes 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: My people are the Soviet people. Since when were Ukrainians subordinate to Russians in USSR? Khrushev, Brezhnev and Gorbatchev were at least half-Ukrainiian. (the first two also made their careers in Ukraine) This means USSR was longer under Ukrainian administration than under Russian one, or what? The Soviet breakup caught plenty of nominal Russians in Ukraine and visa-versa. Should we perhaps restore the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine (Trans-Cathay) on the border with China. The instigators, the so-called "Baikal Cossacks" are now based in Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Ukraine (Kazakhstan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Ukraine (Volga region) These were all attempts by local Ukrainian majority to spin off their own statelet. Other precedents from Ukrainian history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhnovshchina (official rule of anarchy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruin_(Ukrainian_history) (previous attempt at European integration) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_in_Malinovka (max loyalty to the central government, whichever it may be) Knowing all these, I can conclude that the Ukrainians will come back to their senses. The whole thing is about as stupid as USA splitting up into red and blue states and going to war with each other. Well, from your point of view, I guess. From my point of view, you should totally do this and leave the rest of the world alone. US is neither a protector of anybody, nor a broker of anything. Not for free, anyway. Everything you do is in your own self-interest. Or whatever is currently perceived as such. At some point, it was decided that it is against US interests to allow re-emergence of economic block in the wake of USSR. From most other people's point of view, it made perfect sense, as most of the existing customer-supplier relationships were split across the many new borders and customs lines. How many Ukrainians did Stalin kill in his Purges. Millions. A statistic as he would say. They should have no love for the yolk of Russia and their meddling ways, and Mariskovas the precipitate. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 1 minute ago, El Gato said: The Russians jumped into China only after the US did all the heavy lifting defeating the Japanese. And started in China years before., because the Russians were still haunted by the Straights of Tushima and Port Arthur. Yes, the US contributed mightily to liberating China, and Russia was johnny-come-lately to the party. Ostensibly, to take more territory, not liberate China Heavy lifting defeating the Japanese navy. The Americans never set foot on the Asian mainland. Which is where they got all of their food and other resources. Once the Japanese lost that, they were doomed. The Japanese surrendered when the Soviet troops were on the Southern Kurils, with Hokkaido in plain sight. Look at the proceedings of Yalta and Potsdam conferences. All they do is issue memoranda about the resolve to fight to the end and nobody quitting unilaterally. By that, they meant the Soviets, who had a non-agression pact with Japan and were not too interested. The Japanese empire had something like 6 million troops in Asia, of which some 380 thousands were air force. Like a second Germany, on paper. Who could expect that they will fold in only 11 days? The Soviets were the Plan A.. Nukes - Plan B. They didn't work too well. So, the Plan C was bats out of hell! Each carrying a little incendiary in its paws. We don't make the same mistake twice. Look around the Web as to what really happened to the Varyag (Varangian) at port Arthur. (and a bit before that, at Glasgow) We really didn't do too badly, compared to Tsusima. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, El Gato said: He'd Kick Russian Behind as well as he did German. Supply lines were the only thing that ever slowed him up. The man only knew how to win. The only reason the Russians lasted that long into the war was the Supplies the US sent lend-lease to Russia when the Germans had them on ropes Well, boohoo. You supply lines to Europe would never be as good as USSR's, which happened to be a European country. The guy seems to be a special fruitcake to me. Here he is, featuring some custom headgear? x Most importantly, you've got a bigger problem there. None of your generals or admirals would cooperate with others. They'll just throw hissy fits and each do their own thing, regardless of how many stars who's got. The lendlease amounted to some 11% of Soviet materiel by value. That is, most stuff was domestic still. Incidentally, the best and highest scoring Sherman tankers were the Soviets, too. This is where you sent your best and latest, Upgunned to 76mm, with HVSS and diesel engines. Like the one in the movie "Fury" was actually driven by the Soviet tanker Guards. Check them out not too far from where I live now https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+shermans+in+vienna&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AOaemvLWJYqi1okHr06gYstpbQ_Bep_Y8w:1638845344232&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=A3ChfPThRNATPM%2CkNYBXmn1W9uipM%2C_%3BrFS_7Vx10cifBM%2CVwgnZXiUPms3kM%2C_%3BUeV79pIh-LVBhM%2C6MV5iRENidkImM%2C_%3Bvp0rmMqsKG52xM%2Cm5iYH79cNa2IdM%2C_%3Bfcyvvqo5-bqA8M%2CS2clNdcNSf_xoM%2C_%3BAH-MwPjWHuZrjM%2Cz0fL7sUVHR7doM%2C_%3BknAewouJH84Z9M%2CrHBrxqqm4_SP5M%2C_%3Bh7ynlilGrGikBM%2CR37Jlvj4B6NwsM%2C_%3BlhNz4NAN8unGFM%2CqpKzD-IurilUmM%2C_%3BV5tbKjUNFCcsmM%2CUVHYqlqKcYGj8M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTguaZKGR58Fvz8BzUO4gUSNRLlEQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsi9bU1tD0AhVzSfEDHRJCC-QQ9QF6BAgbEAE#imgrc=A3ChfPThRNATPM cccc 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 21 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: Heavy lifting defeating the Japanese navy. The Americans never set foot on the Asian mainland. Which is where they got all of their food and other resources. Once the Japanese lost that, they were doomed. The Japanese surrendered when the Soviet troops were on the Southern Kurils, with Hokkaido in plain sight. Look at the proceedings of Yalta and Potsdam conferences. All they do is issue memoranda about the resolve to fight to the end and nobody quitting unilaterally. By that, they meant the Soviets, who had a non-agression pact with Japan and were not too interested. The Japanese empire had something like 6 million troops in Asia, of which some 380 thousands were air force. Like a second Germany, on paper. Who could expect that they will fold in only 11 days? The Soviets were the Plan A.. Nukes - Plan B. They didn't work too well. So, the Plan C was bats out of hell! Each carrying a little incendiary in its paws. We don't make the same mistake twice. Look around the Web as to what really happened to the Varyag (Varangian) at port Arthur. (and a bit before that, at Glasgow) We really didn't do too badly, compared to Tsusima. Hes they Did. Look up Merrill's Marauders, and Vinegar Joe Stillwell and their exploits in SE Asia. The air support provided first by the AVG, then the ARMY air force, from airfields in Asia, and China itself. Heavy lifting defeated ALL facets of the Japanese, by destroying their air power, sinking all their ship, thereby denying the war machine the supplies they needed to keep the army going and sinking the troops on their ship also. The Marines and Army killed thousands of Japanese on the islands crossing the Pacific. The Soviets were just vultures of opportunity. BTW after Arthur and Tushima, the Russian navy was essentially emasculated until after WW2, and couldn't have fought Japan if they wanted to. Heck, the Brits lost more ships supplying Russia than Russia did. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: Well, boohoo. You supply lines to Europe would never be as good as USSR's, which happened to be a European country. The guy seems to be a special fruitcake to me. Here he is, featuring some custom headgear? x Most importantly, you've got a bigger problem there. None of your generals or admirals would cooperate with others. They'll just throw hissy fits and each do their own thing, regardless of how many stars who's got. The lendlease amounted to some 11% of Soviet materiel by value. That is, most stuff was domestic still. Incidentally, the best and highest scoring Sherman tankers were the Soviets, too. This is where you sent your best and latest, Upgunned to 76mm, with HVSS and diesel engines. Like the one in the movie "Fury" was actually driven by the Soviet tanker Guards. Check them out not too far from where I live now https://www.google.com/search?q=soviet+shermans+in+vienna&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AOaemvLWJYqi1okHr06gYstpbQ_Bep_Y8w:1638845344232&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=A3ChfPThRNATPM%2CkNYBXmn1W9uipM%2C_%3BrFS_7Vx10cifBM%2CVwgnZXiUPms3kM%2C_%3BUeV79pIh-LVBhM%2C6MV5iRENidkImM%2C_%3Bvp0rmMqsKG52xM%2Cm5iYH79cNa2IdM%2C_%3Bfcyvvqo5-bqA8M%2CS2clNdcNSf_xoM%2C_%3BAH-MwPjWHuZrjM%2Cz0fL7sUVHR7doM%2C_%3BknAewouJH84Z9M%2CrHBrxqqm4_SP5M%2C_%3Bh7ynlilGrGikBM%2CR37Jlvj4B6NwsM%2C_%3BlhNz4NAN8unGFM%2CqpKzD-IurilUmM%2C_%3BV5tbKjUNFCcsmM%2CUVHYqlqKcYGj8M%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTguaZKGR58Fvz8BzUO4gUSNRLlEQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsi9bU1tD0AhVzSfEDHRJCC-QQ9QF6BAgbEAE#imgrc=A3ChfPThRNATPM cccc Yes but without lend lease, The Russians were up the creek with out a paddle. It came a CRITICAL time when Russia was almost over ran in Moscow and Stalingrad. Lend lease saved their bacon. Patton was ahead of his times in tactics, and a cowboy to boot. Cowboys don't necessarily fit in well the military structure as they would like. A good boss above him would've let him go on, because he produced results, Much like Lincoln did with Grant in spite of his habits.General and Admirals all have egos, nationality does not matter. It's how you manage them, Like Eisenhower did. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 26 minutes ago, El Gato said: How many Ukrainians did Stalin kill in his Purges. Millions. A statistic as he would say. They should have no love for the yolk of Russia and their meddling ways, and Mariskovas the precipitate. Some amount? You obviously misunderstanding what the Purges were. It was an infighting among the Party leadership, only affecting the brass, but not really rank-and-file. As soon as Stalin solidified his control, the purges abruptly stopped at a high peak. This was sometime in 1937. Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin knock yourself out. This tallies all kinds of sources of excessive mortality., of which the Purges clock at 778,000 (defined as all executed on political charges during 1929-1953) of which 1837-38 alone is responsible for 682,000. Which is more like the actual Purges you heard so much about. If you believe the source, which I do not (A Century of State Murder? Hardly) If you do, it is still not even a single million. What is Mariskovas? Matroska? Maskirovka? Somebody Lithuanian? The "Russian meddling ways" are entirely imaginary, invented in time for Russiagate/2016 election of Trump. Now that we know that it was all hogwash, wouldn't it be time to excuse yourself and pay for tor the damages arising through your attempts to do economic harm? USSR/Russia never actually had any "soft power" skills. RT and Sputnik is all the propaganda machinery Russia's got, and USSR didn't even have that much. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD December 7, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: At some point, it was decided that it is against US interests to allow re-emergence of economic block in the wake of USSR. From most other people's point of view, it made perfect sense, as most of the existing customer-supplier relationships were split across the many new borders and customs lines. Russia has it's trading block as does China only problem is both block's economic activity is far less than what the EU/US/JPN/SouthKorea,Australia.....(do I need to go on) has put together. Your real issue is Russia's block doesn't amount to much. You can't claim the west and the US in particular is weak and about to fall apart then claim the weak failing US is stopping Russia's economic development by remote control. Then again logic contradictions are Russian specialty, it's the second biggest export. Edited December 7, 2021 by Strangelovesurfing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Gato + 254 Bs December 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: Some amount? You obviously misunderstanding what the Purges were. It was an infighting among the Party leadership, only affecting the brass, but not really rank-and-file. As soon as Stalin solidified his control, the purges abruptly stopped at a high peak. This was sometime in 1937. Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin knock yourself out. This tallies all kinds of sources of excessive mortality., of which the Purges clock at 778,000 (defined as all executed on political charges during 1929-1953) of which 1837-38 alone is responsible for 682,000. Which is more like the actual Purges you heard so much about. If you believe the source, which I do not (A Century of State Murder? Hardly) If you do, it is still not even a single million. What is Mariskovas? Matroska? Maskirovka? Somebody Lithuanian? The "Russian meddling ways" are entirely imaginary, invented in time for Russiagate/2016 election of Trump. Now that we know that it was all hogwash, wouldn't it be time to excuse yourself and pay for tor the damages arising through your attempts to do economic harm? USSR/Russia never actually had any "soft power" skills. RT and Sputnik is all the propaganda machinery Russia's got, and USSR didn't even have that much. Don't' urinate on my leg and tell me it's raining. The Russians have been pulling that scam forever. Poland WW2, ethnic Russians in trouble, got to invade.recently Crimea and Ukraine, sending in non-uniformed Russian troops to, What did we hear before class?The ethnic Russians are being abused. Really, we aren't that naive. From the above link you provided "some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher" Because who keeps tracks of deaths in a dictatorship, They're just a statistic, according to Stalin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 16 minutes ago, El Gato said: Hes they Did. Look up Merrill's Marauders, and Vinegar Joe Stillwell and their exploits in SE Asia. The air support provided first by the AVG, then the ARMY air force, from airfields in Asia, and China itself. Heavy lifting defeated ALL facets of the Japanese, by destroying their air power, sinking all their ship, thereby denying the war machine the supplies they needed to keep the army going and sinking the troops on their ship also. The Marines and Army killed thousands of Japanese on the islands crossing the Pacific. The Soviets were just vultures of opportunity. BTW after Arthur and Tushima, the Russian navy was essentially emasculated until after WW2, and couldn't have fought Japan if they wanted to. Heck, the Brits lost more ships supplying Russia than Russia did. These https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Merrill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stilwell OK, I see a regiment's worth of spec ops types armed with small arms only and some staff officers embedded with the Chinese. Do share their sentiment on Limeys, they really did suck. Islands like Midway and Iwojima? Barely large enough to support a single airstrip and a population of seagulls. My back of the envelope calculations show that the amount of Marines US threw at Iwojima equates to a uniform spread 8cm thick. You are seeing it the wrong way around. It is the Japanese navy that needed support from the war machine on the ground, not the other way around. Killed thousands? The Soviets got a one-million-man Kwantung army to surrender in Manjuria. None of the stupid bonzai attack shit there. Yes, the Russian navy in WWII was nothing much. Wouldn't be able to fight the Japanese at sea. But the Japanese wouldn't be able to fight the Soviets on the continent. Hence, an expected draw and that non-agression pact I told you about. You cannot meaningfully harm Russia by means of a naval blockade, either. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, El Gato said: The Russians jumped into China only after the US did all the heavy lifting defeating the Japanese. And started in China years before., because the Russians were still haunted by the Straights of Tushima and Port Arthur. Yes, the US contributed mightily to liberating China, and Russia was johnny-come-lately to the party. Ostensibly, to take more territory, not liberate China Not to mention the thousands of vehicles/war machines the US donated to USSR during WW2. What did Russia donate to the US in return? Bile and Venom for decades into the future, what a joke. "Even before the United States entered World War II in December 1941, America sent arms and equipment to the Soviet Union to help it defeat the Nazi invasion. Totaling $11.3 billion, or $180 billion in today’s currency, the Lend-Lease Act of the United States supplied needed goods to the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 in support of what Stalin described to Roosevelt as the “enormous and difficult fight against the common enemy — bloodthirsty Hitlerism.” 400,000 jeeps & trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petrol products 4.5 million tons of food" https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/ The mighty Soviet Army needed food from the US less it starved even more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said: Russia has it's trading block as does China only problem is both block's economic activity is far less than what the EU/US/JPN/SouthKorea,Australia.....(do I need to go on) has put together. Your real issue isn't that Russia's block doesn't amount to much. You can't claim the west and the US in particular is weak and about to fall apart then claim the weak failing US is stopping Russia's economic development by remote control. Then again logic contradictions are Russian specialty, it's the second biggest export. There is the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) which is where most of the world's people live. There is also the ASEAN (vaguely a Chinese-leaning domain) which is economically catching up with the EU. South Korea is not gonna fight Russia and China for you. No way. Note that they haven't joined any of the Western "sanctions," which has been tremendously lucrative for them thus far. Ditto for Israel. I wouldn't go as far as to claim US is falling apart, but weak it is. Because you have no goals or obviously fake ones. Also, nothing left of ideology the country was founded on. I see people saying things they don't really believe in all the time. Things very obviously disconnected from perceptual reality as such. This is so much like later day USSR! The Chinese economy is to a large extent, manufacturing. Ditto for Russia, about a third. How much of your economy is actually real? I mean disregarding lawyering, stock portfolio management and hair care services for exotic pets? Sorry, the modern, post-industrial, serviice-based economy we heard so much about before the COVID. When was the last time US built a significant civilian ship? How many people you've got who can, say, properly weld? What are the perspectives for somebody interested in a blue collar profession at all, compared to getting yourself an MBA? Or a master's in hospitality and retail management, which is what you need to run a McDonald's branch these days. (used to be high school kids doing that in their spare time) I reckon, some of this may have something to do with your obvious inability to produce your military junk lately, either? There is no contradiction. So far, every single one of your sanctions on Russia backfired and caused more damage to yourself. Do we need to discuss this in greater detail? 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 21 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said: Not to mention the thousands of vehicles/war machines the US donated to USSR during WW2. What did Russia donate to the US in return? Bile and Venom for decades into the future, what a joke. "Even before the United States entered World War II in December 1941, America sent arms and equipment to the Soviet Union to help it defeat the Nazi invasion. Totaling $11.3 billion, or $180 billion in today’s currency, the Lend-Lease Act of the United States supplied needed goods to the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 in support of what Stalin described to Roosevelt as the “enormous and difficult fight against the common enemy — bloodthirsty Hitlerism.” 400,000 jeeps & trucks 14,000 airplanes 8,000 tractors 13,000 tanks 1.5 million blankets 15 million pairs of army boots 107,000 tons of cotton 2.7 million tons of petrol products 4.5 million tons of food" https://ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/ The mighty Soviet Army needed food from the US less it starved even more. "Donated" was only what was destroyed/used up in combat. For what was left intact, USSR did pay in gold. You were welcome to come over and deal with the Nazis yourself, you know? (Which you only did as late as mid-1944, when it was already obvious who won) On one had, this was a lot of stuff. On the other, much less than what was domestically produced. The American-sourced food was animal products only, starting in 1942. USSR never stopped being self-sufficient in grain and other shrubs. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 51 minutes ago, El Gato said: Yes but without lend lease, The Russians were up the creek with out a paddle. It came a CRITICAL time when Russia was almost over ran in Moscow and Stalingrad. Lend lease saved their bacon. Patton was ahead of his times in tactics, and a cowboy to boot. Cowboys don't necessarily fit in well the military structure as they would like. A good boss above him would've let him go on, because he produced results, Much like Lincoln did with Grant in spite of his habits.General and Admirals all have egos, nationality does not matter. It's how you manage them, Like Eisenhower did. Aren't you good at throwing the numbers around? Moscow was 1941, Stalingrad 1943. Connection? There was not yet a significant amount of lend-lease from US in 1941. In 1943, there was, but any especial significance of it for Stalingrad escapes me. Care to elaborate? IMHO, it was overwhelmingly fought door-to-door with small arms, with both sides losing about a million soldiers each. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: It says those were the local Chinese flying American aircraft. Actually, the KMT and thus Taiwan in today's terms. They only flew fighters/interceptors, no bombers though. So says your own article. Anyway, not exactly sure what you were trying to prove. We've discussed the Holodomor story before. This is where you propaganda picked up where the Nazis left off. The 1932-33 famine is notable in being a) the last one b) the one where nobody helped. The USSR was under economic blockade. You don't have easy access to the original materials, but it is pretty obvious that the Bolsheviks did everything in their power to get emergency provisions by various contraband means. And did. Nobody Western would sell them anything, even for gold. Only in exchange for grain! So, the famine had some foreign help. Previously, there were actually notable American disaster relief. Here is a painting by famous painter Aivazovsky dedicated to American help in 1892 And here is entirely fictitious story about it being banned even today https://allinnet.info/history/two-paintings-by-aivazovsky-banned-in-russia-since-1892/ (It is actually pretty well known, as the like the only time the guy drew something not involving the sea and ships of sail) Also check out the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Famine_Relief_Act about the relief effort spearheaded by Herbert Hoover during the 1921-1922 famine (before he became POTUS) Exhaustive list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union Potential further leads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor_in_modern_politics Note how there's been a recent European-driven flareup, in the period of 2007-2013. USA discovered this rich topic as yearly as 1984 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Commission_on_the_Ukraine_Famine Personally, I find this to be largely BS. Because, the grain seizures came to immediate stop as soon as it became obvious that people are dying in numbers. There was a drought, too. They did duly note that the American government did jack about it. Anyhow, the original Soviet archives on the subject are public. In the end, you can only be sure by studying the original materials. Note that even the US commission does not support the dubious claim that the Soviet government was somehow specifically singling out Ukrainians to kill, only that they were looking to seize more grain. The practice was actually started not by Bolsheviks, but by Tsar during WWI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka So, in a way there were also "kulaks hoarding grain" As in peasants not interested in selling the grain to the state monopoly at a fixed price? Seems like a smart thing to do, if you only could get away with it. Like not turning in any gold bullion you owned to the Nixon government when they told you to? Or poor little BP never giving any natural gas to Gazprom and SOCAR (the Azeri state) and pumping it all into the well instead to get more oil? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 48 minutes ago, El Gato said: Don't' urinate on my leg and tell me it's raining. The Russians have been pulling that scam forever. Poland WW2, ethnic Russians in trouble, got to invade.recently Crimea and Ukraine, sending in non-uniformed Russian troops to, What did we hear before class?The ethnic Russians are being abused. Really, we aren't that naive. From the above link you provided "some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin's regime were 20 million or higher" Because who keeps tracks of deaths in a dictatorship, They're just a statistic, according to Stalin That's because it wasn't really Poland, but parts of Russia (now Ukraine and Belarus) which Poland annexed from Russia first, in 1920. See the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_Line Stuff in white - Poland according to Versailles. Stuff in grey, not Poland (except for Lwow). Majority of population not Polish! Annexed in 1920, annexed back by USSR 1939. Stuff in pink - parts taken from Germany and given to Poland in compensation. So, the Polish got somethng for nothing out of it. Does burning 46 people alive count as some kind of abuse, you reckon? That's what they did in Odessa a few days before Crimea. Still no charges against anyone who did it. "Some historians" are no longer to be taken seriously, after the Soviet census data became available. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union As you can see, the population was increasing steadily by average annual rate of some 2%, with exception of WWII years. This is irreconcilable with millions being killed or as much as locked up in Gulag. Aren't you underestimating the dictatorships? They are supposed to be best at running a police state? NKVD kept a meticulous record of everybody they shot. Contrary to what you think, USSR never did extrajudicial / summary executions. With NKVD being the law, they did it officially-like and filed a case. Ditto for Nazi Gestapo, to name another example. Did you know that the Nazi Reichbahn charged the Reichkanzlei one-way 3rd class fare for every customer sent to extermination camp on a cattle car? There are passenger manifests left from that. It is also said that the Nazis were good at making the trains run on schedule. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 17 minutes ago, ronwagn said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor Yet again, the term suggests the Ukronazi-favored interpretation of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 as a deliberate genocide of ethnic Ukrainians, as opposed to natural disaster. The first interpretation ought to be immediately observationally incorrect, because many areas affected were nowhere near Ukraine. Moreover, the parts of Ukraine that were under Austrian/Polish administration were affected by famines to no lesser extent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Austrian_Galicia 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD December 7, 2021 14 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: There is the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization) which is where most of the world's people live. There is also the ASEAN (vaguely a Chinese-leaning domain) which is economically catching up with the EU. South Korea is not gonna fight Russia and China for you. No way. Note that they haven't joined any of the Western "sanctions," which has been tremendously lucrative for them thus far. Ditto for Israel. I wouldn't go as far as to claim US is falling apart, but weak it is. Because you have no goals or obviously fake ones. Also, nothing left of ideology the country was founded on. I see people saying things they don't really believe in all the time. Things very obviously disconnected from perceptual reality as such. This is so much like later day USSR! The Chinese economy is to a large extent, manufacturing. Ditto for Russia, about a third. How much of your economy is actually real? I mean disregarding lawyering, stock portfolio management and hair care services for exotic pets? Sorry, the modern, post-industrial, serviice-based economy we heard so much about before the COVID. When was the last time US built a significant civilian ship? How many people you've got who can, say, properly weld? What are the perspectives for somebody interested in a blue collar profession at all, compared to getting yourself an MBA? Or a master's in hospitality and retail management, which is what you need to run a McDonald's branch these days. (used to be high school kids doing that in their spare time) I reckon, some of this may have something to do with your obvious inability to produce your military junk lately, either? There is no contradiction. So far, every single one of your sanctions on Russia backfired and caused more damage to yourself. Do we need to discuss this in greater detail? The "hard" economy, ship building etc., you speak of is no more or less real than "soft" economic activity such as customer service, both provide a paycheck to someone who needs it. Yes, the us de-industralized to a certain extent, mainly dirty industries where the pollution can exist in someone else's country. The US also denigrated "blue-collar" professions to such an extent there really is a shortage of welders and other blue collar workers. Only issue with your analysis is this has been recognized and is being addressed on all levels, govt and private. The infrastructure bill that was just passed in the US has massive investment in the areas you write about. Along with the rapid re-industrialization that's currently taking place in the private sector of the economy. Every point you make is a lagging indicator and is already being addressed by government and private action. Sanctions haven't backfired in any way on the US as there has never been any large trading or commercial relationship between Russia and the US. Look an industrial policy, first one since Regan and Gorbachev were around. https://americancompass.org/the-commons/america-cottons-on-to-industrial-policy-again/ The US is 2nd largest manufacturing economy in the world, and one of if not the most advanced. Where's mighty Russia, somewhere down below the powerhouse that is Indonesia. Top 10 Manufacturing Countries in the World China – 28.7% Global Manufacturing Output United States – 16.8% Global Manufacturing Output Japan – 7.5% Global Manufacturing Output Germany – 5.3% Global Manufacturing Output India – 3.1% Global Manufacturing Output South Korea – 3% Global Manufacturing Output Italy – 2.1% Global Manufacturing Output France – 1.9% Global Manufacturing Output United Kingdom – 1.8% Global Manufacturing Output Indonesia – 1.6% Global Manufacturing Output 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Strangelovesurfing + 737 JD December 7, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: "Donated" was only what was destroyed/used up in combat. For what was left intact, USSR did pay in gold. You were welcome to come over and deal with the Nazis yourself, you know? (Which you only did as late as mid-1944, when it was already obvious who won) On one had, this was a lot of stuff. On the other, much less than what was domestically produced. The American-sourced food was animal products only, starting in 1942. USSR never stopped being self-sufficient in grain and other shrubs. Tell that to all the Ukrainians that starved thanks to Stalin. It's a total joke how Russians talk about Nazi's when Soviet Russia literally aided and abetted the rise of Hitler. No, I'm not referring to the Molotov-Ribbentrop monstrosity, I'm referring to the actual German war factories that were set up in Russia, following the end of WW1. Your country literally trained with the Nazi's and allowed Soviet Russian territory to be used for (at the time) secret German factories pumping out war machines and material that was the reason Nazi Germany was able to re-arm in such a rapid fashion once Hitler came to power. Why did Communist Russia do this? They wanted Western, mainly German industrial and military know-how. They also believed they were soul mates who would team up to go after the real "West", US, UK, France etc. https://hornsofadilemma.libsyn.com/a-faustian-bargain The only issues Russia ever had with Nazi Germany is their Nazi soul-mates turned around and stabbed them in the back. You don't have Nazi power without Russian help. Russia and the USA have much in common, Russian's had Nazi's they helped arm, US had Jihadist's they helped arm to fight the Soviets in the 80's. Both actions ended up with severe blowback, guess that's what happens when you align yourself with others who hate you. Edited December 7, 2021 by Strangelovesurfing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 27 minutes ago, Strangelovesurfing said: The "hard" economy, ship building etc., you speak of is no more or less real than "soft" economic activity such as customer service, both provide a paycheck to someone who needs it. Yes, the us de-industralized to a certain extent, mainly dirty industries where the pollution can exist in someone else's country. The US also denigrated "blue-collar" professions to such an extent there really is a shortage of welders and other blue collar workers. Only issue with your analysis is this has been recognized and is being addressed on all levels, govt and private. The infrastructure bill that was just passed in the US has massive investment in the areas you write about. Along with the rapid re-industrialization that's currently taking place in the private sector of the economy. Every point you make is a lagging indicator and is already being addressed by government and private action. Sanctions haven't backfired in any way on the US as there has never been any large trading or commercial relationship between Russia and the US. Look an industrial policy, first one since Regan and Gorbachev were around. https://americancompass.org/the-commons/america-cottons-on-to-industrial-policy-again/ The US is 2nd largest manufacturing economy in the world, and one of if not the most advanced. Where's mighty Russia, somewhere down below the powerhouse that is Indonesia. Top 10 Manufacturing Countries in the World China – 28.7% Global Manufacturing Output United States – 16.8% Global Manufacturing Output Japan – 7.5% Global Manufacturing Output Germany – 5.3% Global Manufacturing Output India – 3.1% Global Manufacturing Output South Korea – 3% Global Manufacturing Output Italy – 2.1% Global Manufacturing Output France – 1.9% Global Manufacturing Output United Kingdom – 1.8% Global Manufacturing Output Indonesia – 1.6% Global Manufacturing Output The "service economy" argument was plausible before the Covid hit. Now, those businesses comprising some 60% of GDP are largely closed for good part of two years and we only see GDP dropping single digit percentages? Something is amiss here... Found a prettier version of the chart You see, the biggest problem with it is that it adds up all of the world's GDP in nominal USD. This inflates the value for US more than anybody else, but Switzerland I think. In terms of PPP-adjusted totals, both Russian and Indonesian economies are near equals of Germany, competing for #5 spot. However, PPP is really more like CPI in US. I am not aware of internationally applicable equivalent of PPI, which is what we really need here for the best result. The "sanctions" backfired every time. First introduction in 2014, reduced the RUB:USD exchange by exactly twice. A lot of private Russians were unhappy. Less imported goods, less overseas travel. However, Russia as a whole is a net exporter, running trade surplus with almost everybody. Also with US. Having its internal currency depressed is a major booster to exports, keeping down local wages. Lo and behold, Russia outpaces US and Canada as #1 exporter of wheat and other grains. https://www.agriculture.com/crops/wheat/goodbye-kansas-wheat So 19th century!. In 2014, Russia was still a net importer thereof. Side benefits - massive surge in tractors and combine harvester manufactured in Russia, culminating in this https://en.cognitivepilot.com/ Will retrofit an autopilot to all kinds agricultural machinery It's not as difficult a problem as the latest Tesla or DAPRA martian rover, but also less glam. So, nobody in Silicon Valley seems to be all that interest to compete. Fun fact https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-04/russia-captures-no-2-rank-among-foreign-oil-suppliers-to-u-s How so? See, apart of light an sweet premium-priced crude, you need heavier crude for making diesel and kerosene. You main fixer of that used to be Venezuela. But, you don't talk to them anymore. Duh! Next best? Iran? Duh? OK, it is Russia than. All that while trying to beat the Eurofags into abandoning North Stream. Don't you think it looks stupid somewhat? But, you haven't seen nothing yet. Did you know that US military uses Russian RD-180 rocket engines for most of its launches (in Atlas V) https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/05/space-force-only-6-more-launches-russian-rocket-engines/174336/ If only haven't we seen this before https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-space-russia-idUSKCN0X600H ,https://spacenews.com/preliminary-opinion-rd-180-engine-doesnt-violate-u-s-sanctions/ So, the plan is to nuke us using our own imported missile parts? Great plan! Couldn't really copy it, which leaves the only other option to be SpaceX. But, Musk's will not simply sell N Raptors to the DoD. They have to participate in his dog and pony show of reusable space rocket landing gently on a rocket exhaust.. Which uses up 1/3 more fuel and clobbers whatever it is landing on. Of course, they could simply deploy a parachute and drop the part into the ocean, like the Apollo return capsule always did, but where is the novelty in that? Bad for capitalization of the stock 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrei Moutchkine + 828 December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Strangelovesurfing said: Tell that to all the Ukrainians that starved thanks to Stalin. It's a total joke how Russians talk about Nazi's when Soviet Russia literally aided and abetted the rise of Hitler. No, I'm not referring to the Molotov-Ribbentrop monstrosity, I'm referring to the actual German war factories that were set up in Russia, following the end of WW1. Your country literally trained with the Nazi's and allowed Soviet Russian territory to be used for (at the time) secret German factories pumping out war machines and material that was the reason Nazi Germany was able to re-arm in such a rapid fashion once Hitler came to power. Why did Communist Russia do this? They wanted Western, mainly German industrial and military know-how. They also believed they were soul mates who would team up to go after the real "West", US, UK, France etc. https://hornsofadilemma.libsyn.com/a-faustian-bargain The only issues Russia ever had with Nazi Germany is their Nazi soul-mates turned around and stabbed them in the back. You don't have Nazi power without Russian help. Russia and the USA have much in common, Russian's had Nazi's they helped arm, US had Jihadist's they helped arm to fight the Soviets in the 80's. Both actions ended up with severe blowback, guess that's what happens when you align yourself with others who hate you. Russians also starved A major famine used to happen every dozen years or so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union The 1932-33 was the last one. So, Stalin is arguably who put an end to this, instead of starting it. There is nothing monstrous about Molotov-Ribbentrop. It was the very last of such pacts with the Nazis, when everybody already had one. Thus, a triumph of Soviet diplomacy.. Because everybody having a act with Nazis is the same as nobody having one, back to start. There was trade with the Nazis, but no "secret Nazi factories" and no technology transfers. Plenty enterprising Americans both places. For example, the T-34 used the htps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christie_suspension An American invention which US DoD didn't want. Officially licensed and paid for. The worst offenders were probably Swedes, who continued to sell iron ore and metal products to the Nazis throughout the war. At least 40% of Panzer content was Swedish steel. Overwhelming majority of all ball bearing, too. Nobody in USSR had any illusions of what the Nazis are up to. Hitler is pretty blunt about his plans for the Slavic Untermenschen in "Mein Kampf" It is the British and Nazis who were secretly in love. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 December 8, 2021 23 hours ago, Andrei Moutchkine said: Yet again, the term suggests the Ukronazi-favored interpretation of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 as a deliberate genocide of ethnic Ukrainians, as opposed to natural disaster. The first interpretation ought to be immediately observationally incorrect, because many areas affected were nowhere near Ukraine. Moreover, the parts of Ukraine that were under Austrian/Polish administration were affected by famines to no lesser extent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Austrian_Galicia Stalin ordered the raids on peasants stores of grain and foodstuffs, including household stores. The stories were suppressed by the leftist media, especially the New York Times as long as possible. The food in Ukraine was abundant before the raids. This is the reason that the Ukrainians have had to fight off the domination of the Russians ever since. Their land and warmer climate and ice free ports are sought by Putin. Much of it has already been taken. Putin wants the rest. He took the area with the most Russian interlopers. The easier pickings first. https://justthenews.com/world/europe/ukrainian-defense-minister-says-there-will-be-bloody-massacre-if-russia-invades https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/Languages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 December 8, 2021 On 12/6/2021 at 3:31 PM, Andrei Moutchkine said: You couldn't have, because the Soviets were there. Also, in Korea, where you effectively made such a deal, in effect laying the foundation for the upcoming Korean war. The Americans were bombing the Japanese IN China? Do tell me more. I can only find evidence of them bombing the Japanese mainland FROM China. USSR would've finished Japan without you, too. Which is a bigger reason why they threw in the towel than the nukes. USSR did thank and even paid a bit of gold for the stuff you sent. Lend-lease amounted to about 11% of all materiel used by USSR. Very important, but hardly as dramatic as you make it out to be. Again, USSR was not (only) Russia. There were 15 constituent parts, one of which was Soviet Ukraine. Retrospectively, a stupid setup eventually used to break the country up. Should've kept the Russian Imperial one, where there was no authonomies based on ethnicity. 11%...🙄 Lend Lease was free when used during WWII, not paid for. 100% of all high grade aviation fuel from the USA. Without said fuel, aircraft were 50-->100kmh slower depending on date. FREE 95% of all heavy trucks used by the USSR allowing encirclement away from the railroads came from USA(does not count 1 ton or jeeps), Whatever was kept post WWII was supposed to be paid 75% of every kg of gunpowder fired in WWII by the USSR came from the USA, some of it was paid for by the UK or paid for by the USSR before Lend Lease. FREE 50% of every bullet/shell case fired by the USSR in WWII came from the USA. FREE 50% of the aluminum used by the USSR came from the USA/Canada in its fighters. This number is hard to pin down as much of the aluminum sent was not alloyed aluminum but rather alumina. Supposed to be paid. Nearly 100% of USSR's communication equipment. Now if you wish to be a sniveling little coward and pretend that Gunpoweder, Fuel, Heavy trucking are equivalent to rifles without bullets, artillery without shells, tanks without shells, shoes, food, and clothing... sure, dude. According to your logic, the Germans did not have an oil/food problem and why they started WWII and kicked off Operation Barborosa to begin with. One thing USSR did have, heavy fuel for trucking/tanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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