Why resist?

[gkam44 + 26]

Once again: Being a former engineer for a large power company and having earned a Master of Science in Energy and the Environment, I had PV panels installed six years ago, with my estimated payback of 15-17 years, . . the right thing for an eco-freak to do. Before they could be installed, we acquired a VW e-Golf electric car. The savings in gasoline alone took the solar system payback down to 3 1/2 years. So, we added a used Tesla Model S, P85, and that took the payback down to less than three years, which means we now get free power for household and transportation.

But that is not all: We do not need to go to gas stations, we fuel up at home at night with cheap baseload power. During the daytime, the PV system turns our meter backwards powering the neighborhood with clean local power, which we trade for the stuff to be used that night. If we paid for transportation fuel, the VW would cost us 4 cents/mile to drive, and the Tesla would cost 5 cents/mile at California off-peak power prices.

No oil changes are a real treat along with no leaks. And since it has an electric motor, it needs NO ENGINE MAINTENANCE at all. We do not go "gas up", or get tune-ups or emissions checks, have no transmission about which to worry, no complicated machined parts needing care.

 The future goes from West to East in the US, and got here in California long ago.

[Boat + 1,323]

Wont you be able to taxi that electric car cheaper than owning one? That’s the buzz. Auto drive/rent and have everything delivered.

[markslawson + 1,057]

6 hours ago, gkam44 said:

The future goes from West to East in the US, and got here in California long ago.

gkam44 - look I appreciate that you're doing well out of green enthusiasms and green regulations. That's good. But why bother us about it? You know as well as we do that PVs on houses should never have been allowed. If PVs are required then fine, put them in a central facility where they can be properly controlled and maintained. As it is on houses they can and do overload the local network and the grid operators may only know how many PVs there are on rooftops in certain neighbourhoods when that happens, and have no means of controlling the input. All other generators have to be adjusted to accommodate that extra supply. It must be a nightmare for the grid operators. Further those with PVs have the advantage of a full-on 24/7 grid backup without having to pay full price for it. Now please don't bother us with fantasies about distributed grids. The big generators are still needed and will continue to be needed, no matter how many PVs go onto rooftops. As I said, its good that you, personally, are doing well out of green enthusiasms, but a better course of action would be to keep quiet and hope the useful idiots (as Stalin would have called them) in the green movement don't realise just how badly their enthusiasms are stuffing things up. 

[nsdp + 449]

On 1/15/2022 at 5:12 PM, markslawson said:

gkam44 - look I appreciate that you're doing well out of green enthusiasms and green regulations. That's good. But why bother us about it? You know as well as we do that PVs on houses should never have been allowed. If PVs are required then fine, put them in a central facility where they can be properly controlled and maintained. As it is on houses they can and do overload the local network and the grid operators may only know how many PVs there are on rooftops in certain neighbourhoods when that happens, and have no means of controlling the input. All other generators have to be adjusted to accommodate that extra supply. It must be a nightmare for the grid operators. Further those with PVs have the advantage of a full-on 24/7 grid backup without having to pay full price for it. Now please don't bother us with fantasies about distributed grids. The big generators are still needed and will continue to be needed, no matter how many PVs go onto rooftops. As I said, its good that you, personally, are doing well out of green enthusiasms, but a better course of action would be to keep quiet and hope the useful idiots (as Stalin would have called them) in the green movement don't realise just how badly their enthusiasms are stuffing things up. 

A couple of things. First 18 CFR292 regulates the connection of ANY Small Power  Producer  of 80mw or less to certain requirements. You or your contractor has to file a piece of paper giving notice of the connection  of the PV or wind source with the FERC in Washington and with a copy sent to your local utility.   With Google Earth it is damned easy to see who has PV or wind  connected.   It will show up immediately in your billing history.   The Google Earth  and the billing history (meters are all smart meters like we had for a 700kva customers or larger  at HL&P back in the 1970s)  We had recorded data of kwh and kva every 5 minutes.   With the smart meter on your home is will be either every 15 or 30 minutes. The inverter sends a signal every 5 minutes.

Second , your inverter shuts down when current on the load side and no current on the utility transformer side. That is to prevent feedback from your inverter killing a line man working on the circuit.  To use your cars as backup batteries there is a whole lot of extra work required by the NEC.

[markslawson + 1,057]

18 hours ago, nsdp said:

We had recorded data of kwh and kva every 5 minutes.   With the smart meter on your home is will be either every 15 or 30 minutes. The inverter sends a signal every 5 minutes.

Second , your inverter shuts down when current on the load side and no current on the utility transformer side. That is to prevent feedback from your inverter killing a line man working on the circuit.  To use your cars as backup batteries there is a whole lot of extra work required by the NEC.

Okay, the PV-on-a-roof craze is better managed in that area than elsewhere although google earth should not come into it at all. Grid authorities shouldn't have to resort to counting PVs on roofs by satellite. The piece of paper being lodged is the only thing that should matter - and I take it there is some system in place where the piece of paper is handed to the grid authorities (one can only hope). The inverter shutting down when there's no current is completely inadequate which I'm sure you can see at once. I'm talking about when you've got too much supply on the utility side and in any case the basic problems of home PVs remain - unregulated, unmanaged growth in certain areas that the grid authorities can't control. They can't control the construction of these things and they can't control the input. None of that would matter much if there were just a few - if they were a rich person's play thing as originally intended - but there are too many in some areas and too many overall. Of course, on any individual level it makes a lot of sense to have PVs. The trouble is there are so many they are messing up grid management.     

[turbguy + 1,543]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:08 PM, markslawson said:

Okay, the PV-on-a-roof craze is better managed in that area than elsewhere although google earth should not come into it at all. Grid authorities shouldn't have to resort to counting PVs on roofs by satellite. The piece of paper being lodged is the only thing that should matter - and I take it there is some system in place where the piece of paper is handed to the grid authorities (one can only hope). The inverter shutting down when there's no current is completely inadequate which I'm sure you can see at once. I'm talking about when you've got too much supply on the utility side and in any case the basic problems of home PVs remain - unregulated, unmanaged growth in certain areas that the grid authorities can't control. They can't control the construction of these things and they can't control the input. None of that would matter much if there were just a few - if they were a rich person's play thing as originally intended - but there are too many in some areas and too many overall. Of course, on any individual level it makes a lot of sense to have PVs. The trouble is there are so many they are messing up grid management.     

Hawaiian Electric  seems to be managing the situation well enough.

[nsdp + 449]

On 1/20/2022 at 6:02 PM, turbguy said:

Hawaiian Electric  seems to be managing the situation well enough.

Yes , Hawaiian Electric does very well. All the paperwork is collected when the meter crew arrives to set the TWO NEW meters. No power connection on the second meter measuring solar until the meter man has all of the registration paper work and he has finished his paperwork in the truck.  Without the second meter installed and activated, the owner will never get credit for his solar power.  .  

What do you mean "in that area"? Same standard anywhere in the 50 states  and 13 territories (all except Puerto Rico), all of Canada and the CFE portion of Mexico.

Edited January 23, 2022 by nsdp
forgot

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:02 AM, turbguy said:

Hawaiian Electric  seems to be managing the situation well enough.

 

On 1/23/2022 at 3:25 PM, nsdp said:

What do you mean "in that area"? Same standard anywhere in the 50 states  and 13 territories (all except Puerto Rico), all of Canada and the CFE portion of Mexico.

Sorry guys, but you're still missing the basic point. PV on roofs should never have been allowed in the first place - or at least not be permitted to sell into the grid, of course individuals can have them if they want. This cottage industry approach to power generation causes problems for the grid, as noted in this article. The academic is being positive about solar power in roofs but you'll note the problems. At least with a central facility the panels could be mounted to follow the sun and the mix of technologies can be batter managed. It would be better to admit to these problems and move on, rather than defend the details. Anyway, leave it with you.. thanks for the discussion..       

[nsdp + 449]

18 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Sorry guys, but you're still missing the basic point. PV on roofs should never have been allowed in the first place - or at least not be permitted to sell into the grid, of course individuals can have them if they want. This cottage industry approach to power generation causes problems for the grid, as noted in this article. The academic is being positive about solar power in roofs but you'll note the problems. At least with a central facility the panels could be mounted to follow the sun and the mix of technologies can be batter managed. It would be better to admit to these problems and move on, rather than defend the details. Anyway, leave it with you.. thanks for the discussion..       

Australia's problem is they cannot generate enough revenue to keep coal on line.   It is precisely the same problem that  wind caused  Energy Futures Holdings (old TXU). It is not an engineering problem as you infer; it is a financial problem.   No business is guaranteeed to make a profit if the management is bad. They have learned nothing from Central and Southwest, Gulf States energy, El Paso Electric, and TXU. It is a bad business model as pointed out by the Guardian in 2014.

[Boat + 1,323]

One of the problems with the energy market is latest cheapest product can be cannibalized long before their life cycle is reached. Mother Nature and Putin types can give the popular nat gas a bad name. Let’s say a 33% more efficient solar panel is invented. All your existing panels you can yank and trash. Who said investing is easy. Is there a report on how many wind turbines make it 25 years without being obsoleted or upgraded. We pick on coal but most energy is replaced except maybe old nuke and hydro dams.