IMAGES - "Brimming European LNG terminals have limited space for more gas" - Reuters

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

31 minutes ago, notsonice said:

The inner liner of the tanks are never made of an inflatable sack.....Super cooled LNG would render any polymer membrane brittle at -260° Fahrenheit,.....The tanks are lined with either a solid, none movable, aluminum or a nickel-steel alloy. Ever Hear of the Charpy-v test????

Rubber at -260 degrees is very brittle........ as brittle as glass

 

Rubber, maybe. There is nothing that precludes some other elastomer which does not turn brittle from existing in theory.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:45 PM, Tomasz said:

Let's be honest that the whole problem is that the USA would like to sell all its LNG to its vassals in Europe.

The real problem is that vassals are good at their accounts and see that just the cost of gasification transport and regasification alone is almost $ 200 per 1,000 m3.

In recent years, this has been the final total price of Russian gas in Europe.

That is why the USA has to force its expensive gas because it is in no way competitively priced.

 Europe simply does not need such expensive gas, having wide access to cheap raw material.

True, but Putin is destroying that option. Maybe he would rather sell it to China and India. Then he will be beholden to them. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

48 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

http://www.liquefiedgascarrier.com/LNG-vessel-construction.html

It is inside a box with mirrored walls, but is not a proper Dewar. The ones they build in Korea actually use wooden planks and aluminum foil, real cheap. It is safe to assume that the plastic they use for the bag is the cheapest elastomer they found, which could handle the cold. It is not spun. You are thinking spacecraft fuel tanks, way too fancy-ass.

Modern trucks and buses use spacecraft style fuel tanks then. They are much lighter and thinner than the old steel ones, hold more gas because thinner and lighter using less fuel. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

39 minutes ago, notsonice said:

what are you babbling about ???wood and aluminum foil????

INVAR is typically used....it is a steel alloy-specially it is a stainless steel

http://www.liquefiedgascarrier.com/LNG-membrane-design.JPG

the thickness of the INVAR alone is around 50 times thicker than typical aluminum foil

nothing cheap about INVAR linings....35 percent Nickel. Maybe in North Korea they make fake LNG vessels with your real cheap aluminum foil or plastic????

 

That is what an INVAR lined tank looks like

I am no specialist, just watched a documentary about LNG tanker being built. OK, I am not sure foil was really aluminum, but it was rolled up like foil. I am pretty sure I can recognize wooden planks when I see any.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

59 minutes ago, notsonice said:

Ron thanks, your comments when they stick to the topic of Nat gas are from my end more than well intended and usually very accurate. All I know is there is a lot of misinformation in the mineral resource world .... oil, gas, fracking, coal, mining, refining... (which I have worked my entire life on) and when the author of the article starts out calling oil tanks as LNG storage tanks as pictured that they usually have no clue whatsoever on the topic at hand.

 

Keep up the attack on Putin.........He really is an evil man.

 

 

 

Thanks NSN 😊

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

2 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Modern trucks and buses use spacecraft style fuel tanks then. They are much lighter and thinner than the old steel ones, hold more gas because thinner and lighter using less fuel. 

Really? Never seen that yet. I thought they used some polymer, like car tanks.

[notsonice + 1,255]

13 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Rubber, maybe. There is nothing that precludes some other elastomer which does not turn brittle from existing in theory.

-260° Fahrenheit??? you know of any poly based product that is not brittle at -260????? good luck lining your LNG tank with elastomer  as an inner liner

[notsonice + 1,255]

2 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Really? Never seen that yet. I thought they used some polymer, like car tanks.

not polymers, The tank you need to power a bus is a CNG, 3000 psi steel tank

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by notsonice

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Really? Never seen that yet. I thought they used some polymer, like car tanks.

The tanks are continuously improving and have several grades. You know a lot more about chemistry than I do Andrei. I will add some links for more info. It is a very competitive field with big corporations. 

This one is just basic information.  

https://www.iangv.org/natural-gas-vehicles/vehicle-fuel-storage/

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by ronwagn

[notsonice + 1,255]

7 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

I am no specialist, just watched a documentary about LNG tanker being built. OK, I am not sure foil was really aluminum, but it was rolled up like foil. I am pretty sure I can recognize wooden planks when I see any.

.7 mm INVAR is sold in coils still not foil. Same as steel for cars is sold in coils, does not make it a foil. You can roll it form it press it but it comes out as a rigid sheet. They do use plywood with the insulation but not as the primary liner...that is alway INVAR

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

6 minutes ago, notsonice said:

not polymers, The tank you need to power a bus is a CNG, 3000 psi steel tank

 

That much pressure is easily possible with a polymer called Trogamid, or

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_TMDT

It likely is more expensive than mild steel, though. They use it when a transparent pressure vessel is needed.

[notsonice + 1,255]

3 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

That much pressure is easily possible with a polymer called Trogamid, or

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon_TMDT

It likely is more expensive than mild steel, though. They use it when a transparent pressure vessel is needed.

you would not use your trogamid at low temp -269 F. Your grabbing at straws now......

 

LNG vessels and storage containers are very expensive mainly because of the Nickel steel liners and take a lot of engineering to deal with the temp change from room temp to -269 F... All polymers have horrible expansion contraction problems on a temp change of over 400 degree F. (wood and perlite do not nor do foam (think lots of air bubbles in the foam) and fiberglass type insulation materials ) Well in excess of 10 percent. How do I know , I used to install polymer based pipelines and tanks and temperature swings would, over time destroy them, unless you did all kinds of engineering tricks to keep them from destroying themselves

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

10 minutes ago, notsonice said:

you would not use your trogamid at low temp -269 F. Your grabbing at straws now......

 

LNG vessels and storage containers are very expensive mainly because of the Nickel steel liners and take a lot of engineering to deal with the temp change from room temp to -269 F... All polymers have horrible expansion contraction problems on a temp change of over 400 degree F. (wood and perlite do not nor do foam (think lots of air bubbles in the foam) and fiberglass type insulation materials ) Well in excess of 10 percent. How do I know , I used to install polymer based pipelines and tanks and temperature swings would, over time destroy them, unless you did all kinds of engineering tricks to keep them from destroying themselves

Trogamid was for a suggestion for 3000 psi CNG tanks. LNG is a low pressure system.

Off the top of my head, I don't really know of a suitable elastic polymer for the cryogenic range, but this

https://wcrp.uk.com/technical/material-selection/which-elastomer-offers-the-best-low-temperature-flexibility/

suggests some kind of silicone.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

3 hours ago, notsonice said:

what are you babbling about ???wood and aluminum foil????

INVAR is typically used....it is a steel alloy-specially it is a stainless steel

http://www.liquefiedgascarrier.com/LNG-membrane-design.JPG

the thickness of the INVAR alone is around 50 times thicker than typical aluminum foil

nothing cheap about INVAR linings....35 percent Nickel. Maybe in North Korea they make fake LNG vessels with your real cheap aluminum foil or plastic????

 

That is what an INVAR lined tank looks like

I gotta go with @Andrei Moutchkine with this one - on casual observation and to a first order approximation it IS wood and foil.  Yes the details are more complex.  It's wood frames with special dirt (the perlite) dumped in it.  Yes, the foil isn't aluminum foil, but it's still thinly rolled metallic material, and it is in fact foil you can do a search for 0.7 mm invar foil on google right now and it comes up for sale.  True engineering genius often lies in using the cheapest simplest materials to do amazing things, and this is a solution which is solidly in that envelope.  Two layers of foil that doesn't come apart at low temperatures separated by thermally insulating dirt, with plywood stiffeners so it doesn't collapse is hard in the 'simple stuff doing amazing things' direction.  

Edited February 23, 2022 by Eric Gagen

[notsonice + 1,255]

18 minutes ago, Eric Gagen said:

I gotta go with @Andrei Moutchkine with this one - on casual observation and to a first order approximation it IS wood and foil.  Yes the details are more complex.  It's wood frames with special dirt (the perlite) dumped in it.  Yes, the foil isn't aluminum foil, but it's still thinly rolled metallic material, and it is in fact foil you can do a search for 0.7 mm invar foil on google right now and it comes up for sale.  True engineering genius often lies in using the cheapest simplest materials to do amazing things, and this is a solution which is solidly in that envelope.  Two layers of foil that doesn't come apart at low temperatures separated by thermally insulating dirt, with plywood stiffeners so it doesn't collapse is hard in the 'simple stuff doing amazing things' direction.  

.7 mm is foil?????.......Where did you study Materials Science and Metallurgy and how many shops have you ever worked in that used coils and foils???? He was touting that you can use cheap aluminum foil......then he claimed rubber... Please read all the posts. .7 mm is around the thickness of sheet metal on a car or half the  thickness of a dime. Your car is made with foil?????....Dude you really are stepping in it. Please go hold hands with the guy that was babbling that you can use aluminum foil or rubber. You two are a match made in Heaven

Edited February 23, 2022 by notsonice

[Boat + 1,323]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:35 PM, ronwagn said:

Yes, they have been very stupid in trusting Putin to play fair. They need to get their act together and prepare for the worst. They need to pay with Euros for their security rather than be blackmailed by Russia. Meanwhile they need to burn coal, advance renewables, and consider nuclear as well. Whatever makes sense. The Greens need to be overruled or voted out. They are the chief reason for this situation along with the cronies dealing with Nordstream 2 and Angela Merkel. 

I don’t follow Europe but that’s quite the claim. Seems to me the winners of killing nuclear energy is Russia, not the greenies. So every year Russia sells more nat gas to Europe, Seems like coal is the loser here. Renewables are going to grow regardless of Putin. That pipeline is just a chess piece in a land grab for Putin. It has nothing to to with greenies. Lol Greenies like nat gas as a transition fuel. Remember? It’s you rednecks that can’t remember that. If Putin left the Ukraine alone and retreated. The pipeline would thrive and coal loses. 

This idea the greenies first killed nukes to get more nat gas from Russia sounds like Trump thinking. And now suddenly the greenies hate nat gas? Listen to your talk. This type of rhetoric is where the label wing nut comes from. Lol

Edited February 24, 2022 by Boat

[ronwagn + 6,290]

20 minutes ago, Boat said:

I don’t follow Europe but that’s quite the claim. Seems to me the winners of killing nuclear energy is Russia, not the greenies. So every year Russia sells more nat gas to Europe, Seems like coal is the loser here. Renewables are going to grow regardless of Putin. That pipeline is just a chess piece in a land grab for Putin. It has nothing to to with greenies. Lol Greenies like nat gas as a transition fuel. Remember? It’s you rednecks that can’t remember that. If Putin left the Ukraine alone and retreated. The pipeline would thrive and coal loses. 

This idea the greenies first killed nukes to get more nat gas from Russia sounds like Trump thinking. And now suddenly the greenies hate nat gas? Listen to your talk. This type of rhetoric is where the label wing nut comes from. Lol

The Greens have opposed ever form of energy that is a "fossil fuel", most still do! Most also oppose nuclear and natural gas. The majority of greens want only wind and solar and they think they can supply all the electricity for vehicle fuel via wind and solar. So Greens are the wingnuts. What does that make you? I am for all of the above, whatever is available and affordable but always preferring cleaner but also affordable. IMO we need natural gas that is not sourced by Russian blackmailer Putin. He has now showed his cards so he is out. 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, ronwagn said:

The Greens have opposed ever form of energy that is a "fossil fuel", most still do! Most also oppose nuclear and natural gas. The majority of greens want only wind and solar and they think they can supply all the electricity for vehicle fuel via wind and solar. So Greens are the wingnuts. What does that make you? I am for all of the above, whatever is available and affordable but always preferring cleaner but also affordable. IMO we need natural gas that is not sourced by Russian blackmailer Putin. He has now showed his cards so he is out. 

We need western (not beholden to Russia and China) 

• Gas
• oil
• coal
• nuclear
• wind
• Solar
• Tidal
• biogas
• geothermal