Rob Plant + 2,635 RP December 20, 2023 An interesting read and where Europe is heading for energy security https://www.h2inframap.eu/#introduction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 440 December 26, 2023 Uuhhh...... Ahheemmnnn.... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM December 26, 2023 3 hours ago, specinho said: Uuhhh...... Ahheemmnnn.... reality German Wind Power Hits Record as Storms Batter North Europe (Bloomberg) -- Wind power output reached a record high in both Germany and the UK on Thursday as a storm covering northern Europe boosts... . 4 days ago Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM December 26, 2023 (edited) Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air EU solar and wind power growth displaced gas consumption worth half of Russian imports in August 2023 – Centre for ... Key findings · RES power generation saved natural gas equivalent to 54% of the EU's imports of Russian gas in August 2023. · Year-on-year power... . Sep 15, 2023 Reuters Fossil fuels' share in EU power mix at lowest level since records began -report Fossil fuels produced just 33% of the EU's power in the first half of this year, the lowest share on record based on data going back to 1990... . Aug 29, 2023 Edited December 26, 2023 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM December 26, 2023 (edited) Commodities 2024: Massive renewables additions expected to put coal in back seat The US is projected to add 40.6 GW of renewable capacity in 2024, with wind and solar surpassing coal-fired generation for the first time, as recently announced guidance on domestic manufacturing is expected to help strengthen the clean energy build out.Dec 19, 2023 Commodities 2024: Massive renewables additions expected ... Edited December 26, 2023 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 December 26, 2023 10 minutes ago, notsonice said: The US is projected to add 40.6 GW of renewable capacity in 2024, "40GW" so called "renewable" = 6GW-->10GW NG in reality as majority of that is Solar. Meanwhile, here in Reality, Coal supplies 20% of our current ~600GW used every second of every day for a tidy 120GW continuous and for industrial processes which has fallen off a cliff due to NG availability and being cheaper and FAR easier to use. I suppose the real deal industrially is USA has stopped making Iron/steel which says rather depressing things about US economy writ large. NG is the true king here. For every GW capacity of solar/Wind you have to add 1 GW NG where NG supplies 80%-->50% of the actual power on a yearly basis. So, another 150GW capacity in solar/wind + another 150GW capacity of NG will end coal. Of course it won't as you can't transmit the power, but utopia I suppose. To end NG, simplistically one needs at minimum 5X battery capacity of "renewable" for winter conditions. Not enough, but it is a start. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM December 26, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: "40GW" so called "renewable" = 6GW-->10GW NG in reality as majority of that is Solar. Meanwhile, here in Reality, Coal supplies 20% of our current ~600GW used every second of every day for a tidy 120GW continuous and for industrial processes which has fallen off a cliff due to NG availability and being cheaper and FAR easier to use. I suppose the real deal industrially is USA has stopped making Iron/steel which says rather depressing things about US economy writ large. NG is the true king here. For every GW capacity of solar/Wind you have to add 1 GW NG where NG supplies 80%-->50% of the actual power on a yearly basis. So, another 150GW capacity in solar/wind + another 150GW capacity of NG will end coal. Of course it won't as you can't transmit the power, but utopia I suppose. To end NG, simplistically one needs at minimum 5X battery capacity of "renewable" for winter conditions. Not enough, but it is a start. solar and wind combined passed up real total watt hour coal output in the US during 2023........... 2024 coal declines to less than 20 percent in the US The US Energy Information Administration forecasts coal-fired power plants will generate less in 2024 -- 599 billion kwh -- than the combined generation from solar and wind -- 688 billion kWh -- for the first time on record.Dec 19, 2023 Commodities 2024: Massive renewables additions expected enjoy the read I suppose the real deal industrially is USA has stopped making Iron/steel ????? you are not playing with a full deck of cards....Steel production in the US is 80 million tonnes a year....... US economy is booming.........with renewables increasing Edited December 27, 2023 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boat + 1,315 RG January 9 On 3/16/2022 at 10:41 PM, Ron Wagner said: Sorry about the paywall. I got a cheap deal and find the WSJ to be well worth it. I have to be careful how much of a story I can post. The WSJ is run by Rupert Murdoch. The guy fined 985 million for lying about the election. Go ahead and pay for Australian propaganda that runs the Republican Party. The world is very weird. Humans are clueless and seem happy about it. Carbs are like pouring candy on your plate. Kind of a distressing side issue for that extra fat. 🤪 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 9 On 12/26/2023 at 2:24 PM, notsonice said: I suppose the real deal industrially is USA has stopped making Iron/steel ????? you are not playing with a full deck of cards....Steel production in the US is 80 million tonnes a year....... US economy is booming.........with renewables increasing ... Meanwhile in Reality: Europe produces well over 2X what the USA does with FAR higher energy costs... For USA economy to be self sufficient it has to make a thing called Pig IRON for which it makes nearly zero~20Mton or so and falling. 80Mton of steel is a pitiful amount compared to what was required in 1960(+100mton) with 60% the population of today and vast majority of that 80Mton is recycled junk steel. USA should be making nearly 200Mton of pigiron/steel, not 20/80Mton Suggest you know what a deck of cards is before using said metaphor 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,542 January 9 (edited) 37 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: ... Meanwhile in Reality: Europe produces well over 2X what the USA does with FAR higher energy costs... For USA economy to be self sufficient it has to make a thing called Pig IRON for which it makes nearly zero~20Mton or so and falling. 80Mton of steel is a pitiful amount compared to what was required in 1960(+100mton) with 60% the population of today and vast majority of that 80Mton is recycled junk steel. USA should be making nearly 200Mton of pigiron/steel, not 20/80Mton Suggest you know what a deck of cards is before using said metaphor You have hit the mark squarely, the EU has run out of energy. Hence the birth of Green Energy, without that they would be made irrelevant. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) was a European organization created after World War II to integrate Europe's coal and steel industries into a single common market based on the principle of supranationalism.[2] It was formally established in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, signed by Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. The organization's subsequent enlargement of both members and duties ultimately led to the creation of the European Union. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community You’re hurting my country’: Manchin faces Europe’s wrath The West Virginia senator is pushing Europeans to stop worrying and love the Inflation Reduction Act. You’re hurting my country,” Macron told Manchin, the senator recounted in an interview with POLITICO. It was a charge that captured the wounded feelings and political frustrations of America’s allies in Europe after the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, H.R. 5376 (117), which included a mammoth program of clean-energy subsidies and made-in-America manufacturing rules that has thrown the transatlantic economic relationship into turmoil. Manchin, as the crucial fiftieth vote for the legislation and whose office wrote the controversial provisions, did more to shape the final version of the law than any legislator. Now, Manchin has marched into the den of the European elite, mingling at the World Economic Forum in Davos with an audience of continental technocrats, true-believing free traders and oligarchs more at ease in Monte Carlo than Morgantown, West Virginia, where Manchin played college football. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/19/joe-manchin-davos-inflation-reduction-act-europe-00078510 Edited January 9 by Eyes Wide Open Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM January 9 31 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: ... Meanwhile in Reality: Europe produces well over 2X what the USA does with FAR higher energy costs... For USA economy to be self sufficient it has to make a thing called Pig IRON for which it makes nearly zero~20Mton or so and falling. 80Mton of steel is a pitiful amount compared to what was required in 1960(+100mton) with 60% the population of today and vast majority of that 80Mton is recycled junk steel. USA should be making nearly 200Mton of pigiron/steel, not 20/80Mton Suggest you know what a deck of cards is before using said metaphor 200 million tonnes??? for what ??????US demand is nowhere near 200 million tons...closer to 110 million tonnes the good old days of making giant clunker cars are over are you thinking the US should force steel producers to overproduce or subsidize steel to the point of 200 million tonnes of production a year....??? lunatic thinking then what with the excess 90 million tonnes????? start a steel war with Europe as the Chinese have a giant overproduction problem Personally I think you have no idea what you are talking about 200 million tonnes......... you do realize there still are operating blast furnaces whose product out of the tap is iron....... and 35 million tons of new iron (which is then converted to steel) is produced every year in the US us recycle rate for steel is 75 percent....... so much scrap available that we export 13 million tonnes a year no need for more raw iron ... I suggest you pull your head out of you bosses ass...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 649 January 10 18 hours ago, Boat said: The WSJ is run by Rupert Murdoch. The guy fined 985 million for lying about the election. Go ahead and pay for Australian propaganda that runs the Republican Party. The world is very weird. Humans are clueless and seem happy about it. Carbs are like pouring candy on your plate. Kind of a distressing side issue for that extra fat. 🤪 I have lost my respect for the WSJ and do longer pay attention to it. I do not respect any of the major newspapers , Associated Press, etc. They are all establishment propaganda for the most part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 10 10 hours ago, notsonice said: 200 million tonnes??? for what ??????US demand is nowhere near 200 million tons...closer to 110 million tonnes the good old days of making giant clunker cars are over are you thinking the US should force steel producers to overproduce or subsidize steel to the point of 200 million tonnes of production a year....??? lunatic thinking then what with the excess 90 million tonnes????? start a steel war with Europe as the Chinese have a giant overproduction problem Personally I think you have no idea what you are talking about 200 million tonnes......... you do realize there still are operating blast furnaces whose product out of the tap is iron....... and 35 million tons of new iron (which is then converted to steel) is produced every year in the US us recycle rate for steel is 75 percent....... so much scrap available that we export 13 million tonnes a year no need for more raw iron ... I suggest you pull your head out of you bosses ass...... The 13Mtons exported is from west coast as it is cheaper to export to East Asia then to send it back east. --> Frankly as far as I am concerned, no raw materials should be allowed to be exported. I thought you were "greenie"... what a joke. I am more green than you are, as I would force, yes FORCE, everyone who is green to put their $$$ where their mouth is, set up 100% recycleability here at home and refining here at home first before shitting in other peoples front yards pretending you are a stand up guy. EU steel numbers are without Turkey... which means their 200Mtons is over a near identical population as that of the USA 360M v 330M. They do this thing called: BUILD ships, trains, tunnels, etc etc... You know, if there is a thing called a war, the USA would have to go beg their allies for ships as USA can't build them itself anymore as even their engines, valves, shafts, are imported(not called steel imports either). USA isn't building its own locomotives or railroad cars anymore, they are importing them(which isn't called steel imports..... ) USA is importing millions of cars which also is not called steel imports... Want to also what is not called steel imports? Nails, screws, bolts, wire which are being made in China etc and NOT called steel imports. Well pump heads and steel pipe are all being imported which also DO NOT go on the steel import list as being "imported steel". That entire 250,000ton(it might be more depending on how one compares statements of fact given by the designers) steel bridge over the SF Bay to Oakland... all steel, imported from China... not called steel imports. Want a 5HP electric motor? None are built in the USA, all imported, there are millions of frame motors in USA needing replacement/refurbishment... --> Can't do it as stupid government doesn't classify electric motors, of which 90% of its weight is all Steel/Iron forgings/castings as viable for tariff protection... so if there ever is a war, USA currently has ZERO capacity to build electric motors outside of TESLA... (LOL) talk about hilarious! Of course TESLA can't build their motors either without magnets from China so... Are you this DUMB? Or are you just lazy? Dumb Q: We all know the answer... HERE in REALITY: USA imports well OVER 50% of its steel needs, probably closer to 70% USA is importing over 1/3 of its steel needs and 80%++ of its pig iron needs, even under YOUR idiotic shortsighted definitions. This is beyond STUPID. Under my definition, USA is importing, 70% of its steel needs which means it is actually importing 95% of their pig iron needs. Oh how the mighty have fallen. That is ok, most idiots on my side of the aisle cant do the basic math up above either, so you lunatics on the other side won't have much pushback till you destroy what is left of the USA and then idiots on my side will finally wake up and try to rebuild while you continue to tear down out of pure selfish short sighted stupidity. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Polyphia + 70 LT January 10 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: The 13Mtons exported is from west coast as it is cheaper to export to East Asia then to send it back east. --> Frankly as far as I am concerned, no raw materials should be allowed to be exported. I thought you were "greenie"... what a joke. I am more green than you are, as I would force, yes FORCE, everyone who is green to put their $$$ where their mouth is, set up 100% recycleability here at home and refining here at home first before shitting in other peoples front yards pretending you are a stand up guy. EU steel numbers are without Turkey... which means their 200Mtons is over a near identical population as that of the USA 360M v 330M. They do this thing called: BUILD ships, trains, tunnels, etc etc... You know, if there is a thing called a war, the USA would have to go beg their allies for ships as USA can't build them itself anymore as even their engines, valves, shafts, are imported(not called steel imports either). USA isn't building its own locomotives or railroad cars anymore, they are importing them(which isn't called steel imports..... ) USA is importing millions of cars which also is not called steel imports... Want to also what is not called steel imports? Nails, screws, bolts, wire which are being made in China etc and NOT called steel imports. Well pump heads and steel pipe are all being imported which also DO NOT go on the steel import list as being "imported steel". That entire 250,000ton(it might be more depending on how one compares statements of fact given by the designers) steel bridge over the SF Bay to Oakland... all steel, imported from China... not called steel imports. Want a 5HP electric motor? None are built in the USA, all imported, there are millions of frame motors in USA needing replacement/refurbishment... --> Can't do it as stupid government doesn't classify electric motors, of which 90% of its weight is all Steel/Iron forgings/castings as viable for tariff protection... so if there ever is a war, USA currently has ZERO capacity to build electric motors outside of TESLA... (LOL) talk about hilarious! Of course TESLA can't build their motors either without magnets from China so... Are you this DUMB? Or are you just lazy? Dumb Q: We all know the answer... HERE in REALITY: USA imports well OVER 50% of its steel needs, probably closer to 70% USA is importing over 1/3 of its steel needs and 80%++ of its pig iron needs, even under YOUR idiotic shortsighted definitions. This is beyond STUPID. Under my definition, USA is importing, 70% of its steel needs which means it is actually importing 95% of their pig iron needs. Oh how the mighty have fallen. That is ok, most idiots on my side of the aisle cant do the basic math up above either, so you lunatics on the other side won't have much pushback till you destroy what is left of the USA and then idiots on my side will finally wake up and try to rebuild while you continue to tear down out of pure selfish short sighted stupidity. It must be such a burden for you to be omniscient. Wait...you don't know when to use "than" vs. "then." Never mind. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM January 10 (edited) 8 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: The 13Mtons exported is from west coast as it is cheaper to export to East Asia then to send it back east. --> Frankly as far as I am concerned, no raw materials should be allowed to be exported. I thought you were "greenie"... what a joke. I am more green than you are, as I would force, yes FORCE, everyone who is green to put their $$$ where their mouth is, set up 100% recycleability here at home and refining here at home first before shitting in other peoples front yards pretending you are a stand up guy. EU steel numbers are without Turkey... which means their 200Mtons is over a near identical population as that of the USA 360M v 330M. They do this thing called: BUILD ships, trains, tunnels, etc etc... You know, if there is a thing called a war, the USA would have to go beg their allies for ships as USA can't build them itself anymore as even their engines, valves, shafts, are imported(not called steel imports either). USA isn't building its own locomotives or railroad cars anymore, they are importing them(which isn't called steel imports..... ) USA is importing millions of cars which also is not called steel imports... Want to also what is not called steel imports? Nails, screws, bolts, wire which are being made in China etc and NOT called steel imports. Well pump heads and steel pipe are all being imported which also DO NOT go on the steel import list as being "imported steel". That entire 250,000ton(it might be more depending on how one compares statements of fact given by the designers) steel bridge over the SF Bay to Oakland... all steel, imported from China... not called steel imports. Want a 5HP electric motor? None are built in the USA, all imported, there are millions of frame motors in USA needing replacement/refurbishment... --> Can't do it as stupid government doesn't classify electric motors, of which 90% of its weight is all Steel/Iron forgings/castings as viable for tariff protection... so if there ever is a war, USA currently has ZERO capacity to build electric motors outside of TESLA... (LOL) talk about hilarious! Of course TESLA can't build their motors either without magnets from China so... Are you this DUMB? Or are you just lazy? Dumb Q: We all know the answer... HERE in REALITY: USA imports well OVER 50% of its steel needs, probably closer to 70% USA is importing over 1/3 of its steel needs and 80%++ of its pig iron needs, even under YOUR idiotic shortsighted definitions. This is beyond STUPID. Under my definition, USA is importing, 70% of its steel needs which means it is actually importing 95% of their pig iron needs. Oh how the mighty have fallen. That is ok, most idiots on my side of the aisle cant do the basic math up above either, so you lunatics on the other side won't have much pushback till you destroy what is left of the USA and then idiots on my side will finally wake up and try to rebuild while you continue to tear down out of pure selfish short sighted stupidity. They do this thing called: BUILD ships, trains, tunnels, etc etc... okay you go work in a shipyard for $3 an hour as that is what you will earn in order for those ships to be economically sellable.... ship building moved offshore 50 years ago because of high labor costs.........plain and simple if you want to subsidize a steelworker sell them your house for 10 cents on a dollar...... we do not need more trains......their is a glut of rolling stock right now...replacements are made in Eire PA by Wabtec (once GE) Tunnels??? dude what are you babbling about............100,000 tonnes of steel into a tunnel and you are babbling about 90 million tonnes more a year in steel production....... you are so out of touch with reality no raw materials should be allowed to be exported??????....You sound like a communist........ so we should not export crude oil?????? we import 4 million bpd from Canada....which is sent down to the Gulf and we export our production because of an oversupply of crude in the US You know, if there is a thing called a war,??? you want the US to get into a war so you can live your pipedream of 200 million tonnes of steel a year Dude you really need to get a grip on the BS you are posting USA isn't building its own locomotives or railroad cars anymore???? head to Erie PA Dumbass........... USA imports well OVER 50% of its steel needs, probably closer to 70%???? anything to back up your BS????? of course not 200 million tonnes of steel ????? dude put down the pipe Edited January 10 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 11 12 hours ago, notsonice said: They do this thing called: BUILD ships, trains, tunnels, etc etc... okay you go work in a shipyard for $3 an hour as that is what you will earn in order for those ships to be economically sellable.... ship building moved offshore 50 years ago because of high labor costs.........plain and simple if you want to subsidize a steelworker sell them your house for 10 cents on a dollar...... we do not need more trains......their is a glut of rolling stock right now...replacements are made in Eire PA by Wabtec (once GE) Tunnels??? dude what are you babbling about............100,000 tonnes of steel into a tunnel and you are babbling about 90 million tonnes more a year in steel production....... you are so out of touch with reality no raw materials should be allowed to be exported??????....You sound like a communist........ so we should not export crude oil?????? we import 4 million bpd from Canada....which is sent down to the Gulf and we export our production because of an oversupply of crude in the US You know, if there is a thing called a war,??? you want the US to get into a war so you can live your pipedream of 200 million tonnes of steel a year Dude you really need to get a grip on the BS you are posting USA isn't building its own locomotives or railroad cars anymore???? head to Erie PA Dumbass........... USA imports well OVER 50% of its steel needs, probably closer to 70%???? anything to back up your BS????? of course not 200 million tonnes of steel ????? dude put down the pipe Apparently you can't read Wablec's own homepage... They do NOT build freightcars or freight locomotives. They refurbish them, rebuild them. They do appear to build rapid transit electric locomotive/cars though. Otherwise it appears they import everything or make railroad electric/pneumatic components or import them. Shipbuilding? They make plenty of $$$; the problem are the unions having basic steel workers making absolutely INSANE wages... Break the union control and we can once again have sane wages in the steel workers industry. It is not complex work and should be paid accordingly(Oh yea, and slash welfare so the bums actually have to work instead of being perfectly healthy and refusing to work). Good grief? Do you not know we need new tunnels allowing higher speed train traffic? Hell, most trains should be moved underground. We should have thousands of tunnel boring machines operating 24/7 around the USA installing underground tunnels for trains eliminating the GRID LOCK up on the street level where us humans live. All of our road infrastructure was built without tunnel boring machines which means all of our mountain passes have VERY steep grades and SLOW diesel/gas guzzling inclines. Put them in tunnels and maintenance drops like a rock as well in those VERY expensive regions and saves massive amounts of time for everyone. Would I ban sale of crude oil? Yes. Refine it and sell it. Same goes for NG. Only 3rd world nations sell raw materials like complete fools. Welcome to "modern" USA...a 2nd world nation dropping lower due to abject corruption in government, where you have barristas now worth $13 million in her mere ~10 year stint in congress... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM January 11 2 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Apparently you can't read Wablec's own homepage... They do NOT build freightcars or freight locomotives. They refurbish them, rebuild them. They do appear to build rapid transit electric locomotive/cars though. Otherwise it appears they import everything or make railroad electric/pneumatic components or import them. Shipbuilding? They make plenty of $$$; the problem are the unions having basic steel workers making absolutely INSANE wages... Break the union control and we can once again have sane wages in the steel workers industry. It is not complex work and should be paid accordingly(Oh yea, and slash welfare so the bums actually have to work instead of being perfectly healthy and refusing to work). Good grief? Do you not know we need new tunnels allowing higher speed train traffic? Hell, most trains should be moved underground. We should have thousands of tunnel boring machines operating 24/7 around the USA installing underground tunnels for trains eliminating the GRID LOCK up on the street level where us humans live. All of our road infrastructure was built without tunnel boring machines which means all of our mountain passes have VERY steep grades and SLOW diesel/gas guzzling inclines. Put them in tunnels and maintenance drops like a rock as well in those VERY expensive regions and saves massive amounts of time for everyone. Would I ban sale of crude oil? Yes. Refine it and sell it. Same goes for NG. Only 3rd world nations sell raw materials like complete fools. Welcome to "modern" USA...a 2nd world nation dropping lower due to abject corruption in government, where you have barristas now worth $13 million in her mere ~10 year stint in congress... dude you are babbling again locomotives are built in the US and exported around the world by Wabtex and Progress Rail (once EMD) Locomotive Wabtec https://www.wabteccorp.com › locomotive We build new commuter and low-horsepower, low-emissions switcher locomotives Locomotive Engines Progress Rail, A Caterpillar Company https://www.progressrail.com › Segments › Locomotiv... With deliveries to over 75 countries, we have designed and produced more than 75000 EMD® diesel engines — exceeding any other locomotive manufacturer, to create Hell, most trains should be moved underground.. for what reason??????/ you love pork barrel projects????? my bet is you never have work in any heavy industry in the US....how many tunnel projects, shaft sinking???? or underground mines have you worked at?????? tunnels are not low maintenance structures...far from it...You ever work on a tunnel rehab job?????????? any tunnel experience????? any underground experience???? shotcrete??? lining????bolting????? grouting????? putting in mats or mesh????? barring down loose rock?????? blasting????? newsflash tunnels even in good ground need never ending maintenance.....ground support is not cheap........Soft ground tunnels ...........good luck ... Putting anything in a tunnel is super expensive......much easier and cheaper to open cut for rail or roads and so much cheaper for maintenance Shipbuilding? They make plenty of $$$; the problem are the unions having basic steel workers making absolutely INSANE wages???? 35 to 40 an hour is insane?????? today in the US???? not in my book Where do ironworkers get paid the most? Highest paying cities for Ironworkers near United States San Francisco, CA. $44.42 per hour. 5 salaries reported. New York, NY. $43.14 per hour. 8 salaries reported. Seattle, WA. $31.87 per hour. 6 salaries reported. Decatur, AL. $26.67 per hour. 6 salaries reported. Atlanta, GA. $26.50 per hour. ... not exactly insane wages.....unless you do not value skilled labor You ever work in a metal shop???? foundry????? Mine????? Refinery????? $30 to $40 an hour these days is typical in any heavy industrial setting..... Coal miner these days in the US $80,000 a year 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,635 RP January 11 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Good grief? Do you not know we need new tunnels allowing higher speed train traffic? Hell, most trains should be moved underground. We should have thousands of tunnel boring machines operating 24/7 around the USA installing underground tunnels for trains eliminating the GRID LOCK up on the street level where us humans live. Good God have you actually gone mad? Do you have any comprehension of the cost in doing that??? This is how much it cost to build the Channel tunnel How much did it cost to build the Channel Tunnel? It took just under six years and 13,000 workers to build the Channel Tunnel. The total cost came at an eye-watering £4.65 billion which would be the equivalent of £12 billion in today's money. Thats 31 miles of tunnel, just how many miles of tunnels are you proposing? sounds to me like many thousands if youre proposing having "thousands of tunnel boring machines operating 24/7" So to do 1 thousand miles it will cost you $493 billion at todays exchange rate. The 11 TBM's used were mainly boring through chalk at 15ft/ hour. Good luck getting that funded!! It would take many decades to build and for every thousand miles of tunnels dug in various locations you'd employ over 400,000 people!!! You are totally clueless!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 11 3 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Good God have you actually gone mad? Do you have any comprehension of the cost in doing that??? This is how much it cost to build the Channel tunnel How much did it cost to build the Channel Tunnel? It took just under six years and 13,000 workers to build the Channel Tunnel. The total cost came at an eye-watering £4.65 billion which would be the equivalent of £12 billion in today's money. Thats 31 miles of tunnel, just how many miles of tunnels are you proposing? sounds to me like many thousands if youre proposing having "thousands of tunnel boring machines operating 24/7" So to do 1 thousand miles it will cost you $493 billion at todays exchange rate. The 11 TBM's used were mainly boring through chalk at 15ft/ hour. Good luck getting that funded!! It would take many decades to build and for every thousand miles of tunnels dug in various locations you'd employ over 400,000 people!!! You are totally clueless!! Appears you are clueless(not surprised as you haven't bothered to look at costs breakdown given by governments... its called READ the reports), almost ALL that tunneling cost in "manpower" was R&D of each individual machine and permits... Why? When you keep making only 1 off machines and then destroying them when the job is done like pitiful fools, ya don't say it costs billions... How dumb do people have to be? If we look at cost of smaller ~3m sewer tunnels using STANDARD boring machines, cost per km is VERY low. The cost is the time, not the manpower or R&D. If you look at the cost In electricity costs to bore the Biggest of modern tunnels, oxygenate the tunnel, and move the rock OUT, is pitifully small. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,635 RP January 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Appears you are clueless(not surprised as you haven't bothered to look at costs breakdown given by governments... its called READ the reports), almost ALL that tunneling cost in "manpower" was R&D of each individual machine and permits... Why? When you keep making only 1 off machines and then destroying them when the job is done like pitiful fools, ya don't say it costs billions... How dumb do people have to be? If we look at cost of smaller ~3m sewer tunnels using STANDARD boring machines, cost per km is VERY low. The cost is the time, not the manpower or R&D. If you look at the cost In electricity costs to bore the Biggest of modern tunnels, oxygenate the tunnel, and move the rock OUT, is pitifully small. 3 metres bore width?? Yes you are demonstrating your cluelessness! Are you 2 feet tall? You need twice that diameter!! "The standard diameter of a subway tunnel can vary depending on the location and the specific subway system. However, the typical diameter of a subway tunnel is around 14 to 20 feet (4.3 to 6.1 meters) to accommodate the passage of trains and provide sufficient space for infrastructure and safety considerations.15 Sept 2020" Oh and it was a privately funded project so those government cost breakdowns you claim you've read and I should read (which you dont reference) dont exist! Channel Tunnel, a Look at Who Built the Chunnel | Bechtel 11 TBM's were used in the 31 mile tunnel 5 starting from UK 6 from France, they didnt spend any money on R&D thats utter bullshit the TBM's were built by Robbins and the most expensive TBM was $21M Again you spout BS with no facts to back up your claims, no change there! Anyway its pretty clear that your idiotic scheme to put trains underground would cost hundreds of billions to do just 1 thousand miles if you argue against that you are more stupid than even I think! Here you go stupid try reading this! costspresentation2.pdf (wordpress.com) Notice NY is spending $35b on subway extensions and is getting a whopping 15KM (9.32miles) of new track! So thats $3.75b per mile You want to build thousands of miles of underground rail Bwahahahaha Youre too funny (stupid) Edited January 11 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,381 DL January 12 (edited) On 1/11/2024 at 9:59 AM, Rob Plant said: 3 metres bore width?? Yes you are demonstrating your cluelessness! Are you 2 feet tall? You need twice that diameter!! "The standard diameter of a subway tunnel can vary depending on the location and the specific subway system. However, the typical diameter of a subway tunnel is around 14 to 20 feet (4.3 to 6.1 meters) to accommodate the passage of trains and provide sufficient space for infrastructure and safety considerations.15 Sept 2020" Oh and it was a privately funded project so those government cost breakdowns you claim you've read and I should read (which you dont reference) dont exist! Channel Tunnel, a Look at Who Built the Chunnel | Bechtel 11 TBM's were used in the 31 mile tunnel 5 starting from UK 6 from France, they didnt spend any money on R&D thats utter bullshit the TBM's were built by Robbins and the most expensive TBM was $21M Again you spout BS with no facts to back up your claims, no change there! Anyway its pretty clear that your idiotic scheme to put trains underground would cost hundreds of billions to do just 1 thousand miles if you argue against that you are more stupid than even I think! Here you go stupid try reading this! costspresentation2.pdf (wordpress.com) Notice NY is spending $35b on subway extensions and is getting a whopping 15KM (9.32miles) of new track! So thats $3.75b per mile You want to build thousands of miles of underground rail Bwahahahaha Youre too funny (stupid) Cost of land acquisition and demolition/clearance is a little more expensive in New York City. In case you did not know. Edited January 12 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,080 DM January 13 On 1/11/2024 at 6:56 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said: Appears you are clueless(not surprised as you haven't bothered to look at costs breakdown given by governments... its called READ the reports), almost ALL that tunneling cost in "manpower" was R&D of each individual machine and permits... Why? When you keep making only 1 off machines and then destroying them when the job is done like pitiful fools, ya don't say it costs billions... How dumb do people have to be? If we look at cost of smaller ~3m sewer tunnels using STANDARD boring machines, cost per km is VERY low. The cost is the time, not the manpower or R&D. If you look at the cost In electricity costs to bore the Biggest of modern tunnels, oxygenate the tunnel, and move the rock OUT, is pitifully small. have you ever worked on any tunnel or shaft sinking projects???? underground????? blasting????? shotcreting?????? tunnel maintenance???? from what I can tell you are just babbling whatever pops in you little pea brain with no actual experience or examples what so ever so lets first address TBMs...they are built for a specific project IE you can not use a soft ground shield for a project that is in granite thus all TBMs are specifically made for each projects rock type, diameter , liner to be installed , water problems......anticipated soft spots or spalling rock conditions.......expected rates of advance.......type of muck removal (conveyor, rail/mine car or rubber tired etc.The TBMs when they complete the job are basically scrap used TBMs....one mans junk is another mans junk...there is no real salvage value for used TBMs ....cut them up haul them away melt them down photo above....Junk .........there are really no off the shelf TBMs if your in soft ground ....you go with a road header many times...they can be reused IE coal mines usually have access tunnels constructed before the coal is hit....... (majority of tunnels built are not for the public) and these tunnels are driven with road headers many shorter tunnel projects (less than 2 km go with conventional tunneling (drill and shoot) and their are never that many tunnels over 2 km built around the world at any time......... Man power is the majority of costs in over than 90 percent of tunnelling projects..........next is capital equipment costs now sewer projects...3 meter tunnels....well if the depth is under 30/40 feet you trench..You go with trenching as you drive shoring , excavate lay pipe and cover , pull up your shoring ....small crews 10 to 20 people....Tunneling good luck to have less than 50 to 100 men on the job for the same tube IE easier to stay close to the surface and use lift stations when needed almost all sewer lines are in soft ground and near the surface....tunneling is the last resort....... tunneling is for dreamers and those sandhogs that build them cash their paychecks as fast as they can surface IE the Chicago Sewer project is one fat pork barrel for sandhogs 100 mile of tunnels and the cost to date $4 billion and the project was under construction starting in the late 70's and it was build in great conditions....all sedimentary rock close to the surface with minimal shaft sinking...$40 million a mile back in 1980 is closer to $200 million a mile today for sewer tunnels .......... the City of Chicago should of just ripped up all the streets and installed new/separate storm sewers...right now they have combined discharge cost of a 3 dia meter tunnel in rock with a TBM in sedimentary rock with no lining .........figure all in..5,000 per foot or 25 million a mile...you can trench much cheaper (even 40 feet deep cheaper with blasting) but hey if you want to go into the tunneling business lots of opportunities to underbid projects and go bankrupt Boston "Big Dig" contractor seeks bankruptcy Reuters https://www.reuters.com › article › idUSN23463736 Jun 23, 2008 — The largest contractor in Boston's $15 billion "Big Dig" road and tunnel construction project filed for bankruptcy protection on Monday Second big North East Link contractor in financial strife Herald Sun https://www.heraldsun.com.au › News › Victoria Dec 1, 2022 — Bothar Boring and Tunnelling which was in charge of a large section on the $16bn NE Link project has gone into administration. They . Carillion collapse: How can one of the Government's ... The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk › analysis-and-features Jan 15, 2018 — Carillion collapse: How can one of the Government's biggest contractors go bust? ... Carillion last year won a contract to build tunnels in the Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 13 On 1/11/2024 at 6:59 AM, Rob Plant said: 3 metres bore width?? Yes you are demonstrating your cluelessness! Are you 2 feet tall? You need twice that diameter!! "The standard diameter of a subway tunnel can vary depending on the location and the specific subway system. However, the typical diameter of a subway tunnel is around 14 to 20 feet (4.3 to 6.1 meters) to accommodate the passage of trains and provide sufficient space for infrastructure and safety considerations.15 Sept 2020" Oh and it was a privately funded project so those government cost breakdowns you claim you've read and I should read (which you dont reference) dont exist! Channel Tunnel, a Look at Who Built the Chunnel | Bechtel 11 TBM's were used in the 31 mile tunnel 5 starting from UK 6 from France, they didnt spend any money on R&D thats utter bullshit the TBM's were built by Robbins and the most expensive TBM was $21M Again you spout BS with no facts to back up your claims, no change there! Anyway its pretty clear that your idiotic scheme to put trains underground would cost hundreds of billions to do just 1 thousand miles if you argue against that you are more stupid than even I think! Here you go stupid try reading this! costspresentation2.pdf (wordpress.com) Notice NY is spending $35b on subway extensions and is getting a whopping 15KM (9.32miles) of new track! So thats $3.75b per mile You want to build thousands of miles of underground rail Bwahahahaha Youre too funny (stupid) Ah yes, the Chunnel... is 3 tunnels not one, was at dawn age of TBM's and their speed, efficiency sucked and was under the damned ocean, was working with 2 national governments with massive slush fund "contracts" with an 80% cost overrun... smooth... Meanwhile, in reality, Japan is busy putting 90% of all of its new high speed tunnels underground Over ~300 km of it and counting. Its MAGLEV, using rare earth superconductors which have to be chilled down to some insane temperature with associated horrific costs, goes a tidy 400km/h, is made for passengers so have to have emergency exits everywhere unlike freight trains running on low speed dirt cheap rails, Costs ~11 Trillion Yen ~ = $60B or 200M/km for 2 lines. Or 100M/km per one line for MAGLEV. Not Billions for ancient garbage tech per mile as done in NYC corruption paradise, but rather Millions for modern top of the line tech and they still do not have scale efficiency cost reductions(though getting very close) Meanwhile, in reality: Switzerland Gotthard Base Tunnel, 2 tunnels for train ~60km(over 100 miles of total tunnels as this is passenger traffic so emergency exits etc, safe rooms from fire or ~160km in total 4 machines used 1 from each end of each tunnel... for ~10Billion or so give or take. ~$62M/km. ~100M/mile. $1 Trillion gets 10,000 miles or roughly the annual USA defense budget when all factors are added in. Both examples for VERY deep passenger rated tunnels. Freight only tunnels would be on major routes removing majority from above ground and do not need passenger fire exits all over the damned place. Also, in Eastern USA especially the tunnels would NOT be deep, so the tunnel lining does not need to be horrifically THICK for the compression and therefore for same bore diameter used in Switzerland, in the USA or anywhere else that is shallow, everyone would get DOUBLE lines, not single for exact same cost. So, one would expect shallow lines to obtain ~20,000 miles of track for ~$1 Trillion. Expand your mind.. PS: Japan long ago elevated or tunneled majority of its rail traffic as the only logical answer to rail congestion of local roads/people. Majority of cost is getting government pukes out of the damned way of the engineers. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,135 January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, notsonice said: have you ever worked on any tunnel or shaft sinking projects???? underground????? blasting????? shotcreting?????? tunnel maintenance???? from what I can tell you are just babbling whatever pops in you little pea brain with no actual experience or examples what so ever so lets first address TBMs...they are built for a specific project IE you can not use a soft ground shield for a project that is in granite thus all TBMs are specifically made for each projects rock type, diameter , liner to be installed , water problems......anticipated soft spots or spalling rock conditions.......expected rates of advance.......type of muck removal (conveyor, rail/mine car or rubber tired etc.The TBMs when they complete the job are basically scrap used TBMs....one mans junk is another mans junk...there is no real salvage value for used TBMs ....cut them up haul them away melt them down photo above....Junk .........there are really no off the shelf TBMs if your in soft ground ....you go with a road header many times...they can be reused IE coal mines usually have access tunnels constructed before the coal is hit....... (majority of tunnels built are not for the public) and these tunnels are driven with road headers many shorter tunnel projects (less than 2 km go with conventional tunneling (drill and shoot) and their are never that many tunnels over 2 km built around the world at any time......... Man power is the majority of costs in over than 90 percent of tunnelling projects..........next is capital equipment costs now sewer projects...3 meter tunnels....well if the depth is under 30/40 feet you trench..You go with trenching as you drive shoring , excavate lay pipe and cover , pull up your shoring ....small crews 10 to 20 people....Tunneling good luck to have less than 50 to 100 men on the job for the same tube IE easier to stay close to the surface and use lift stations when needed almost all sewer lines are in soft ground and near the surface....tunneling is the last resort....... tunneling is for dreamers and those sandhogs that build them cash their paychecks as fast as they can surface IE the Chicago Sewer project is one fat pork barrel for sandhogs 100 mile of tunnels and the cost to date $4 billion and the project was under construction starting in the late 70's and it was build in great conditions....all sedimentary rock close to the surface with minimal shaft sinking...$40 million a mile back in 1980 is closer to $200 million a mile today for sewer tunnels .......... the City of Chicago should of just ripped up all the streets and installed new/separate storm sewers...right now they have combined discharge cost of a 3 dia meter tunnel in rock with a TBM in sedimentary rock with no lining .........figure all in..5,000 per foot or 25 million a mile...you can trench much cheaper (even 40 feet deep cheaper with blasting) but hey if you want to go into the tunneling business lots of opportunities to underbid projects and go bankrupt Boston "Big Dig" contractor seeks bankruptcy Reuters https://www.reuters.com › article › idUSN23463736 Jun 23, 2008 — The largest contractor in Boston's $15 billion "Big Dig" road and tunnel construction project filed for bankruptcy protection on Monday Second big North East Link contractor in financial strife Herald Sun https://www.heraldsun.com.au › News › Victoria Dec 1, 2022 — Bothar Boring and Tunnelling which was in charge of a large section on the $16bn NE Link project has gone into administration. They . Carillion collapse: How can one of the Government's ... The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk › analysis-and-features Jan 15, 2018 — Carillion collapse: How can one of the Government's biggest contractors go bust? ... Carillion last year won a contract to build tunnels in the See my previous post USING Japan/Switzerland numbers using worlds best tech... MAGLEV for Shits sake and 400km/h. Enjoy reality when not tunneling under giant cities foundations of giant billion dollar buildings on the ocean ~$1 Trillion USD using Swiss/Japan numbers would obtain ~10,000miles of track if not 20,000. Enjoy reality. Are you ALWAYS so lazy you can't do basic math? Edited January 13 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 476 GE January 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: See my previous post USING Japan/Switzerland numbers using worlds best tech... MAGLEV for Shits sake and 400km/h. Enjoy reality when not tunneling under giant cities foundations of giant billion dollar buildings on the ocean ~$1 Trillion USD using Swiss/Japan numbers would obtain ~10,000miles of track if not 20,000. Enjoy reality. Are you ALWAYS so lazy you can't do basic math? You don't do any math. You make up estimates, they are all round numbers, no real data, no calculations. Do some actual math! "~10,000miles of track if not 20,000" Is that math? No. Math would give you one number, like 11,324 miles. Try it sometime. If you asked this guy to add 2+2 he would say "~3 if not 6" and then pretend he is the math expert. Edited January 13 by TailingsPond 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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