How Far Have We Really Gotten With Alternative Energy

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

You are nonsense, coal is NOT ALLOWED... And coal requires 10-->20+ hours to start let alone come to full capacity. 

For stored pumped hydro to replace coal in China, as YOU are proposing Wind/Solar to do so... which goes to ZERO during winter high storms or even other lulls... would require roughly speaking 1000 cubic kilometers of water dropped 200m over a 24 hour period all before we electrify everything so the ACTUAL total is several times as high. 

That is more water than ALL the dams in the world have water stored. 

Get real. 

'Wind goes to zero in winter storms' 

😂

I assume by this you are not suggesting the whole of China is simultaneously afflicted by a >force 10 storm (strict meteroloigcal condition here) 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

You are nonsense, coal is NOT ALLOWED... And coal requires 10-->20+ hours to start let alone come to full capacity. 

For stored pumped hydro to replace coal in China, as YOU are proposing Wind/Solar to do so... which goes to ZERO during winter high storms or even other lulls... would require roughly speaking 1000 cubic kilometers of water dropped 200m over a 24 hour period all before we electrify everything so the ACTUAL total is several times as high. 

That is more water than ALL the dams in the world have water stored. 

Get real. 

There are these things called weather forecasts. Now from a 31 year period of sea sailing I have found that the forecasts are generally within 1 force on the beaufort scale out to about 7 days. 

That means the grid operators have a reasonable idea of what levels of power generation they will need and what they need in reserve so they can have coal power plant ready to meet short falls. The pump storage / NG / Hydro is available to meet the unexpected.

Thats how it works in Europe. China is largely centrally planned so has certain advantages in that regard. We aren't talking about Texas here. 

Grid operators have the benefit of lots of historical info

Demand throughout the day / week/month/ year

Weather conditions that affect both demand and supply - wind speeds, sunlight, temperatures 

The commercial break times for Bejing Boulevard 

etc

etc

 

 

 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

This table is basically a demonstration of how windpower behaves over a whole Continent. Its Europe but I suspect China has a similar picture. 

The problem is many people can't scale from one turbine / one solar panel to 10,000's turbines distributed over a whole country / continent. 

China has 2 interlinked grids so would function in  a similar fashion to Europes highly intergrated grid. 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by NickW

[NickW + 2,714]

For the same day this is Europe (inc non EU members) from all sources

Solar is the most intermittent but coincides with part of the day with higher demand. In this situation Hydro, gas, coal and lignite throttle back to accommodate solar and provide peaking services in the morning and evening. 

[NickW + 2,714]

16 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

A doctrine of the fossil religion says that electrical generation from gas increases as wind and solar increase. The truth is that it doesn't. This chart shows the rapid growth of wind and solar while gas has remained flat:

https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/global-electricity-review-2022/

Gas use in the UK dropped from a peak of around 100 bcm to 75 bcm in parallel with the rise of renewables. Some of that fall is down to improvements in efficiency but then nuclear and coal sourced  output has fallen too. On the counter side our import through interconnectors has increased so the overall picture is similar to what you suggest. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by NickW

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

'Wind goes to zero in winter storms' 

😂

I assume by this you are not suggesting the whole of China is simultaneously afflicted by a >force 10 storm (strict meteroloigcal condition here) 

Either you are purposefully lying or brain dead.  Judging by your responses, I'll go with the later.  You know damned well what a continent wide winter high pressure storm is = NO WIND for weeks at a time after the front blows through. 

But sure... keep crying.

[NickW + 2,714]

9 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Either you are purposefully lying or brain dead.  Judging by your responses, I'll go with the later.  You know damned well what a continent wide winter high pressure storm is = NO WIND for weeks at a time after the front blows through. 

But sure... keep crying.

You defy the OED in terms of definitions. 

What you are talking about here is a high pressure anti cyclone - kind of the opposite of a storm. 

[specinho + 439]

17 hours ago, Boat said:

Ain’t it time one of you says we need a Canadian pipeline even though we are energy independent without it. How about we need to drill more natural gas wells to drop prices when we have 1/2 a dozen pipelines delivering US gas to Mexico. Americans, don’t believe the Foreigner. Stop the exports until you get a fair price. Like Putin they care little for your children. 

heard they want more oil and gas but not the pipes...........  There has been an idea to use hand carry and buckets passing across the nearest border. This reduces the rate of unemployment in both countries, besides solving issue of transportation.........

[Eric Gagen + 713]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Either you are purposefully lying or brain dead.  Judging by your responses, I'll go with the later.  You know damned well what a continent wide winter high pressure storm is = NO WIND for weeks at a time after the front blows through. 

But sure... keep crying.

That’s really weird. I wonder what continent this occurs on?  Certainly not the ones I’ve been to.  

[NickW + 2,714]

20 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

That’s really weird. I wonder what continent this occurs on?  Certainly not the ones I’ve been to.  

Moo Moo Land. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,129]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:07 AM, Eric Gagen said:

That’s really weird. I wonder what continent this occurs on?  Certainly not the ones I’ve been to.  

Meanwhile here in reality across the EU

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5812811/Wind-turbines-standstill-wind-disappears-thew-UK.html(edit this is the summer High pressure no wind article)...  Winter

Here is UK wind production just this year> 1wk in march Zero wind and January less than 10% of nameplate https://gridwatch.co.uk/WIND/percent

Happens every winter/summer in the EU.  Wake up  Been over these numbers before using Germany/Denmark numbers.  Get tired of you and NickW's lies. 

Happens every winter here in the USA(uh Texas storm which knocked out the NG is one such storm)

Happens across all of Siberia into China and why the air conditions over China are so horrific every winter.  Stagnant air for a month at a time and is the largest High pressure system in the world every winter. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Eric Gagen + 713]

4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Meanwhile here in reality across the EU

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5812811/Wind-turbines-standstill-wind-disappears-thew-UK.html(edit this is the summer High pressure no wind article)...  Winter

Here is UK wind production just this year> 1wk in march Zero wind and January less than 10% of nameplate https://gridwatch.co.uk/WIND/percent

Happens every winter/summer in the EU.  Wake up  Been over these numbers before using Germany/Denmark numbers.  Get tired of you and NickW's lies. 

Happens every winter here in the USA(uh Texas storm which knocked out the NG is one such storm)

Happens across all of Siberia into China and why the air conditions over China are so horrific every winter.  Stagnant air for a month at a time and is the largest High pressure system in the world every winter. 

Good job - you showed that a small island can have calm weather for short time periods.  Or that small countries like Germany or Denmark subject to similar conditions.  These places are NOT continents or even vaguely similar in size to continents.  They are the size of modest (or even micro) US states, and the US itself isn't even 1/2 of it's own continent.  A proper grid with regional interconnects takes care of temporary regional lulls in local areas like Germany or the UK.  

[Ecocharger + 1,375]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:28 AM, notsonice said:

 

the graph says it all..........

 

Coal is getting creamed by renewables today, In 10 more years Renewables will have a 30 percent share of electrical power generation world wide. In Europe 50 percent for wind,solar and hyrdo  and Nuclear with 25 percent Biomass will be at 5 percent. Coal....gone....Nat gas decreasing to half of what it is today.......Enjoy 

 

Coal is increasing.

[nsdp + 449]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Coal is increasing.

And your source is?

[NickW + 2,714]

23 minutes ago, nsdp said:

And your source is?

I suspect coal will get a temporary revival as many economies shun russian gas. 

Europe will need to love coal next winter. 

[nsdp + 449]

3 minutes ago, NickW said:

I suspect coal will get a temporary revival as many economies shun russian gas. 

Europe will need to love coal next winter. 

A wild assed guess.

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, nsdp said:

A wild assed guess.

Really

If Russia cuts off gas / Europe decides to stop importing gas it will need to fill a gap next winter. 

As much as I would love to see that gap filled by renewables and nuclear the time span is too short and if it can be filled it will be with coal and alternate supplies of gas. Biden reckoned the US could supply 15bnm3 tops. Thats 1/10th of Russian imports.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

Really

If Russia cuts off gas / Europe decides to stop importing gas it will need to fill a gap next winter. 

As much as I would love to see that gap filled by renewables and nuclear the time span is too short and if it can be filled it will be with coal and alternate supplies of gas. Biden reckoned the US could supply 15bnm3 tops. Thats 1/10th of Russian imports.

They can’t fill it with coal to any meaningful degree - the plants have been torn down.  The plants which are left will of course run at higher capacity, but the ability for Europe to dramatically increase its usage of coal to generate electricity isn’t there.

[nsdp + 449]

18 hours ago, NickW said:

Really

If Russia cuts off gas / Europe decides to stop importing gas it will need to fill a gap next winter. 

As much as I would love to see that gap filled by renewables and nuclear the time span is too short and if it can be filled it will be with coal and alternate supplies of gas. Biden reckoned the US could supply 15bnm3 tops. Thats 1/10th of Russian imports.

Depending on resolution of the Ukraine conflict, Ukraine could fill much of the gap from their 14 nuclear plants and about as much coal.  Moldavia has surplus coal which was connected to the EU grid when  Ukraine switched to the EU grid from the Russian grid in February this year. They will have surplus due to all the battle damage to loads. How Ukraine Unplugged from Russia and Joined Europe’s Power Grid with Unprecedented Speed https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-ukraine-unplugged-from-russia-and-joined-europes-power-grid-with-unprecedented-speed/

[NickW + 2,714]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:53 PM, Eric Gagen said:

They can’t fill it with coal to any meaningful degree - the plants have been torn down.  The plants which are left will of course run at higher capacity, but the ability for Europe to dramatically increase its usage of coal to generate electricity isn’t there.

Much of the coal plant is run in a peaking fashion due to CO2 targets. Switching them round to being baseload would increase coal fired output and reduce draw down on gas. 

As I type the UK is using 930MW out of 5.2 GW of its coal capacity. 

Ireland 210MW of 1.2GW

Germany 19.5GW out of 39GW

and so on. 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

38 minutes ago, NickW said:

Much of the coal plant is run in a peaking fashion due to CO2 targets. Switching them round to being baseload would increase coal fired output and reduce draw down on gas. 

As I type the UK is using 930MW out of 5.2 GW of its coal capacity. 

Ireland 210MW of 1.2GW

Germany 19.5GW out of 39GW

and so on. 

I had no idea there were that many plants still available - looks like they CAN substitute coal for gas to a great degree presuming they can get enough coal. I know quite a few were decomissioned, but I didn't know so many were still out there. 

[nsdp + 449]

from the Scientific American:

Switch to Clean Energy Can Be Fast and Cheap  Strategically placing solar and wind farms across the U.S. could compensate for power lulls during cloudy or calm days

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/switch-to-clean-energy-can-be-fast-and-cheap/

More reliable than you "no wind " bullshitters above.

 

[Boat + 1,315]

Iowa’s use of renewable energy sources is the highest in the country, according to an American Clean Power Association report released Monday.

About 57.6 percent of electricity generated in Iowa came from renewable sources, according to the report.

No other state had more than half of its electricity come from renewable sources.

Kansas was the next highest state with 43.4 percent, followed by Oklahoma with 35.5 percent, South Dakota with 32.9 percent and North Dakota with 30.8 percent.

 

Look, no deaths at over 50%. I bet Trump will be pissed. He don’t like the wind. 

[nsdp + 449]

Irony is all of the above states voted for Chump .  they are also part of the Southwest Power Pool where at 38%, wind is the largest energy resource.

[nsdp + 449]

12 hours ago, Eric Gagen said:

I had no idea there were that many plants still available - looks like they CAN substitute coal for gas to a great degree presuming they can get enough coal. I know quite a few were decomissioned, but I didn't know so many were still out there. 

They can get it from the US, South Africa, Brazil, and in a pinch Australia which is in a tiff right now with China. Germany is decommissioning nuclear plants not coal.  Their coal plants also have Natural gas and #6 oil burners as well and had been burning NG.  Britain can burn #6 instead of coal which is what happened back in 1984 during the coal strike.  Low load in spring is  good time to do a turnaround to optimize for coal.