Wind droughts

[markslawson + 1,057]

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the British magazine Spectator a couple of weeks back. In essence, academics are FINALLY starting to realise that wind droughts are an issue with intermittent systems and studying them. As the article notes some work has been done in the UK, where it is known, for example, that some years back the wind made no contribution to the UK grid for nine days, and there were serious deficits during another drought at the end of last year. These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts. I saw some material recently on wind droughts in the US but I seem to have mislaid it. Perhaps someone has access? As for Australia there has been limited work to suggest that wind droughts in a given year might last for up to 36 hours. But that's just from one year of data. As noted in the article there is no way to store enough power to tide the grids over such long periods. Australia is building one water dam project called Snowy 2.0 (after the region) but a fully renewables network would need at least six of seven. In any case the blindness of policy makers to this issue to date is just extraordinary.        

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 hours ago, markslawson said:

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the British magazine Spectator a couple of weeks back. In essence, academics are FINALLY starting to realise that wind droughts are an issue with intermittent systems and studying them. As the article notes some work has been done in the UK, where it is known, for example, that some years back the wind made no contribution to the UK grid for nine days, and there were serious deficits during another drought at the end of last year. These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts. I saw some material recently on wind droughts in the US but I seem to have mislaid it. Perhaps someone has access? As for Australia there has been limited work to suggest that wind droughts in a given year might last for up to 36 hours. But that's just from one year of data. As noted in the article there is no way to store enough power to tide the grids over such long periods. Australia is building one water dam project called Snowy 2.0 (after the region) but a fully renewables network would need at least six of seven. In any case the blindness of policy makers to this issue to date is just extraordinary.        

Of course there are ways to store enough power you just ignore them. And of course you didn't bother to discuss the fact that many wind droughts occur in summer during heat waves when solar is at maximum production.

 It is highly questionable that you need 7 Snowy 2.0. The great European wind drought of 2021 caused only a 32% decrease in generation, not 100% and occurred when solar was at max.

Through summer and early autumn 2021, Europe experienced a long period of dry conditions and low wind speeds. The beautifully bright and still weather “wind drought” experienced in Europe this year saw SSE in the UK report a 32% drop in power from its renewable assets. https://energypost.eu/climate-change-wind-droughts-and-the-implications-for-wind-energy/pe 

The great US wind drought was Q1 2015. It was super hard to find, I had to type "wind drought" into google and look down the page to the third link. But of course we know how terrible you are at research. Let me show you how it is done right:

"This case study notably marked an extreme climatic event in the United States. During the first months of 2015 (January–March), surface wind speeds were substantially below normal in most of the contiguous United States, which reduced substantially the power generation of the wind farms in the western part of the country (Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas in particular). These conditions had severe implications for wind farm owners who saw an important reduction in revenues, making difficult regular cash-flow operations." https://s2s4e.eu/sites/default/files/2019-12/Case study 6 Factsheet_0.pdf

Now let's look at what happened:

Texas generation was down 14% from the previous year Q1: 

https://www.ercot.com/files/docs/2021/03/10/FuelMixReport_PreviousYears.zip

2014 Q1:

 

2015 Q1

 

 

 

There are apparently 20 pumped hydro projects in various stages of development in Australia.

RenewEconomy has unveiled the latest in its series of renewable energy and storage project maps of Australia, this time focusing on pumped hydro storage.

The map is well-timed, given the increased focus on long-term storage needs, and it coincides with the release of a new funding scheme by the NSW government, and a feasibility study into a major new pumped hydro project at Borumba Dam in Queensland.

The Pumped Hydro Storage Map of Australia identifies more than 20 different projects. Only three of them are in operation – Tumut, Wivenhoe and Shoalhaven – and two more are in construction, including the massive and controversial Snowy 2.0 scheme and the Kidston project in north Queensland.

Another 15 or so are in various stages of development, some of them waiting for possible funding initiatives from ARENA, or the federal government’s UNGI scheme, both of which have been delayed.

The map does not include sites of pumped hydro potential – like that put together by the ANU – but focuses instead on completed and announced projects and proposals.

It also includes a compressed air energy storage project proposal for Broken Hill, which is similar to pumped hydro apart from the fact it would use compressed air rather than water.

We hope you find this and other maps that we have produced to be a useful reference. If we have missed some project proposals, or if you spot an error, please do let us know.

You can find the other maps we have published in our series below. And there is more to come!

Pumped Hydro Energy Storage Map of Australia

Big Battery Storage Map of Australia

 

Green Hydrogen Is Cheaper Than LNG in Europe

High LNG prices mean green hydrogen—produced by a renewable-powered electrolyzer splitting water—is cheaper to burn than natural gas in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Turkey and the U.K., according to research by BloombergNEF. The fuels’ costs are often compared for two reasons: So-called gray and blue hydrogen can be produced using natural gas, and green hydrogen can be a clean substitute for some gas-powered processes.

 

Compressed Air - this company has 8.7GWh in development right now globally:

Advanced compressed air energy storage (A-CAES) company Hydrostor is waiting to hear if one of its proposed large-scale projects in California will get approved to supply electricity.

The California Energy Commission (CEC) said last week that Hydrostor’s Application for Certification (AFC) for its Gem Energy Storage Center, a 500MW/4,000MWh facility which would be built in Kern County, is complete.

An AFC is required as part of the standard licensing process for all power plants of over 50MW within the Commission’s jurisdiction. Project proposals need to meet criteria of providing adequate information to enable decision-making.

The application for the US$975 million Gem project had been filed by Hydrostor late last year, as reported by Energy-Storage.news in December 2021. The company claimed Gem could be online by 2026, creating up to 700 jobs during construction and about 40 full-time jobs once operational.

With the CEC having found the AFC to be complete, executive director Drew Bohan recommended that the 12-month timeline for a decision to be made on it should begin. Four commissioners voted unanimously to begin that process at a meeting held 13 July, with one commissioner absent and none against the approval.

Canada-headquartered Hydrostor has developed a technology which it claims greatly improves the efficiency of using compressed air to store energy in vast underground caverns.

A-CAES also eliminates fossil fuel use associated with legacy compressed air plants, CEO Curtis VanWalleghem explained in an interview with Energy-Storage.news earlier this year. The world’s 400MW of existing compressed air plants, two facilities, one in the US and the other in Germany, use thermal generation to pre-heat air for expansion as they discharge their stored energy.

Instead, Hydrostor’s technology utilises a thermal management system which heats up water during the compression process. The hot water is then used in the later step of expanding the air. The innovation boosts the round-trip efficiency of compressed air from about 40% at legacy plants to 65% for advanced compressed air energy storage.

The company not only holds the keys to the technology which it could supply to others or license, but has also taken on the role of developing projects in key territories.

Hydrostor has been able to attract the backing of investors including Goldman Sachs Asset Management, which has committed to up to US$250 million investment, based on whether the energy storage company can make progress on its 1.1GW/8.7GWh of projects in development.

According to research group Mercom Capital, Hydrostor was the biggest recipient of VC funding in the energy storage space in Q1 2022 thanks to the Goldman Sachs investment and was bolstered with a further US$25 million commitment from a Canadian pension fund in April.

In addition to the 4GWh Gem project, Hydrostor has also filed an AFC for another California project, the 400MW/3,200MWh Pecho Energy Storage Center in San Luis Obispo County.

CEO VanWalleghem said that in California, Hydrostor is developing plants with eight hours storage duration to meet the profile of facilities that supply capacity into California’s CAISO wholesale market under resource adequacy (RA) contract structures – through which load-serving entities like investor-owned utilities (IOUs) and community choice aggregators (CCAs) are ordered to make procurements to ensure their customers’ lights stay on.

However, the A-CAES technology is scalable to much longer durations: one case in point is Hydrostor’s other gigawatt-hour scale project in development at Broken Hill in New South Wales, Australia.

Silver City Energy Storage Center in Broken Hill would be a 200MW/1,500MWh A-CAES plant that would participate in Australia’s National Electricity Market (NEM). It was recently selected by regional grid operator Transgrid as the preferred option among a number of proposals as offering the highest net benefit to consumers and integrating the most renewable energy capacity to the network cost-effectively.

The California Energy Commission’s hearing office is set to hold a potential information hearing and site visit for the Gem Energy Storage Center project on 11 August.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[Boat + 1,323]

11 hours ago, markslawson said:

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the British magazine Spectator a couple of weeks back. In essence, academics are FINALLY starting to realise that wind droughts are an issue with intermittent systems and studying them. As the article notes some work has been done in the UK, where it is known, for example, that some years back the wind made no contribution to the UK grid for nine days, and there were serious deficits during another drought at the end of last year. These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts. I saw some material recently on wind droughts in the US but I seem to have mislaid it. Perhaps someone has access? As for Australia there has been limited work to suggest that wind droughts in a given year might last for up to 36 hours. But that's just from one year of data. As noted in the article there is no way to store enough power to tide the grids over such long periods. Australia is building one water dam project called Snowy 2.0 (after the region) but a fully renewables network would need at least six of seven. In any case the blindness of policy makers to this issue to date is just extraordinary.        

The blindness of policy makers lead straight to the corruption of the FF community that buy off politicians and feed false information to the public. Robust revamp of the grid along with an entire network of modern transmission lines has been discussed for over 30 years in the US for example. Government and news sources are like goldfish, they reboot after short amounts of time, forgetting all previous responsibility and challenges. 

[Tom Nolan + 2,443]

BLOOMBERG Wed July 20

Fate of the Texas Power Grid Depends on Daily Whims of the Wind

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fate-texas-power-grid-depends-190055606.html

...On breezy days, Texas has plenty of electricity to spare—even as demand surges to unprecedented levels. On Wednesday, for instance, power use was forecast to skyrocket to a record 80 gigawatts. But officials haven’t even asked for conservation, thanks to vast farms in the Texas Panhandle and along the Gulf Coast that can supply about half of the grid’s needs on the windiest days.

When the wind ebbs, however, it’s an entirely different story. Take last week. Demand for power topped out at about 78 gigawatts. Yet, the grid operator had to beg residents and businesses to reduce power use because wind was sluggish.

Those wide swings underscore the challenge of managing a grid heavily reliant on power sources subject to changing weather. Yes, coal and natural gas plants can unexpectedly break down—another reason why officials needed to ask for conservation last week—and a problem that has confronted the state this spring and summer. But time and again, wind has been a crucial factor in whether Texas has enough power this summer.

“Whether or not Texas is short on resources is largely dependent on the wind,” John Moura, director of reliability assessment and performance analysis at the North American Electric Reliability Corp., a regulatory body that oversees grid stability, said during a briefing Wednesday.

Wind has become especially politicized in Texas in the aftermath of a deadly winter storm last year that caused blackouts. While critics of the resource blamed frozen wind turbines, failures at gas-fired plants were the bigger culprit. (Wind last year constituted 24% of energy use, according to Electric Reliability Council of Texas, the grid operator. Natural gas made up 42% and coal 19%).

Texas relies almost exclusively on market forces to determine what power plants are built in the state. For at least a decade, turbines have been among the cheapest facilities to build—a big reason why Texas is the biggest wind state. Most days, that’s fine. But when gusts fade, temperatures soar and fossil-fuel plants are shut, the state’s power grid can find itself in a pinch.

Developers are installing big batteries on the Texas grid, which help make up the shortfalls for when wind slacks. Eventually, they could smooth the ebbs and flows from intermittent renewable power. But the grid doesn’t have enough of them yet.

[TEXAS has been the destination state for many companies and people who want to get away from the Dictates of Authoritarians.  The population has increased tremendously over the past 5 years.]

[specinho + 467]

16 hours ago, markslawson said:

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the British magazine Spectator a couple of weeks back. In essence, academics are FINALLY starting to realise that wind droughts are an issue with intermittent systems and studying them. As the article notes some work has been done in the UK, where it is known, for example, that some years back the wind made no contribution to the UK grid for nine days, and there were serious deficits during another drought at the end of last year. These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts. I saw some material recently on wind droughts in the US but I seem to have mislaid it. Perhaps someone has access? As for Australia there has been limited work to suggest that wind droughts in a given year might last for up to 36 hours. But that's just from one year of data. As noted in the article there is no way to store enough power to tide the grids over such long periods. Australia is building one water dam project called Snowy 2.0 (after the region) but a fully renewables network would need at least six of seven. In any case the blindness of policy makers to this issue to date is just extraordinary.        

Those you mentioned might not be blind, but merely do not know enough, or care enough, to bother.........

Relying on sunlight, wind, water etc might post a risk to regions without constant supply or changing intensity......... These sources of energy might be uncontrollable, unpredictable hence, less reliable in the changing world.......

Mentioned the need to CREATE a controlled mechanical pathway that could bypass those amidst climate scare.....

e.g. using recyclable inert gas to turn turbines. This could replace the unpredictable wind, no?

e.g. converting heat into electricity. This could replace seasonal sunlight or cloudy condition, no?

e.g. artificial, controlled and looped hydro station. A height is determined to set the potential energy in place. Part of the energy generated would be used to pump the water back up to the reservoir etc............ Or, a closed- looped flow, mimicking water flow onto old wind/water mill.....This could replace often controversial natural dam, no?

p/s: this comparison might show us the reason why educated people are less informed or knowledgeable nowadays............

Edited July 21, 2022 by specinho

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

10 hours ago, Tom Nolan said:

BLOOMBERG Wed July 20

Fate of the Texas Power Grid Depends on Daily Whims of the Wind

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fate-texas-power-grid-depends-190055606.html

...On breezy days, Texas has plenty of electricity to spare—even as demand surges to unprecedented levels. On Wednesday, for instance, power use was forecast to skyrocket to a record 80 gigawatts. But officials haven’t even asked for conservation, thanks to vast farms in the Texas Panhandle and along the Gulf Coast that can supply about half of the grid’s needs on the windiest days.

When the wind ebbs, however, it’s an entirely different story. Take last week. Demand for power topped out at about 78 gigawatts. Yet, the grid operator had to beg residents and businesses to reduce power use because wind was sluggish.

Those wide swings underscore the challenge of managing a grid heavily reliant on power sources subject to changing weather. Yes, coal and natural gas plants can unexpectedly break down—another reason why officials needed to ask for conservation last week—and a problem that has confronted the state this spring and summer. But time and again, wind has been a crucial factor in whether Texas has enough power this summer.

“Whether or not Texas is short on resources is largely dependent on the wind,” John Moura, director of reliability assessment and performance analysis at the North American Electric Reliability Corp., a regulatory body that oversees grid stability, said during a briefing Wednesday.

Wind has become especially politicized in Texas in the aftermath of a deadly winter storm last year that caused blackouts. While critics of the resource blamed frozen wind turbines, failures at gas-fired plants were the bigger culprit. (Wind last year constituted 24% of energy use, according to Electric Reliability Council of Texas, the grid operator. Natural gas made up 42% and coal 19%).

Texas relies almost exclusively on market forces to determine what power plants are built in the state. For at least a decade, turbines have been among the cheapest facilities to build—a big reason why Texas is the biggest wind state. Most days, that’s fine. But when gusts fade, temperatures soar and fossil-fuel plants are shut, the state’s power grid can find itself in a pinch.

Developers are installing big batteries on the Texas grid, which help make up the shortfalls for when wind slacks. Eventually, they could smooth the ebbs and flows from intermittent renewable power. But the grid doesn’t have enough of them yet.

[TEXAS has been the destination state for many companies and people who want to get away from the Dictates of Authoritarians.  The population has increased tremendously over the past 5 years.]

Texas summer energy alerts are going to be a total thing of the past in just a couple years as solar fills in the daily summer wind gap and they are authoritarian as can be, just on different issues than the left such as abortion, freedom of travel, ga y rights, direct sale of cars by manufacturer, transparent backpacks for kids, etc., etc.

Just look at the elegant symmetry of solar and wind. Those whimsical winds are in summer in the middle of the day when solar is at max.

Texas solar and wind just now:

“There are 36,000 MWs of utility-scale solar plus energy storage systems, and over 31,000 MW of stand-alone storage in the ERCOT Interconnection queue,” TPUC Commissioner Jimmy Glotfelty wrote in an open memo to Chairman Peter Lake and fellow commissioners Lori Cobos and Will McAdams.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,057]

6 hours ago, specinho said:

Relying on sunlight, wind, water etc might post a risk to regions without constant supply or changing intensity......... These sources of energy might be uncontrollable, unpredictable hence, less reliable in the changing world.......

Mentioned the need to CREATE a controlled mechanical pathway that could bypass those amidst climate scare.....

I don't disagree but of course its all very expensive. Heap, green electricity is anything but.. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

20 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Of course there are ways to store enough power you just ignore them. And of course you didn't bother to discuss the fact that many wind droughts occur in summer during heat waves when solar is at maximum production.

Jay - no practical grid level storage is anywhere near commercial implementation aside from dams, as you well know (batteries don't count). There are plenty of suggestions and pilot projects, that may be what you're thinking of. I'm not sure why you thought pointing to wind droughts during summer did anything but reinforce my case, however you will recall that night also occurs in Summer as well as overcast days, and there is still no way to store the power on anything like the scale required, except for dams. As for your other remarks on wind droughts in the US - no something was said recently and I was hoping someone could point to the material. If you can't find the material it hardly matters, and certainly doesn't affect what I said. It is a matter for researchers to get busy and check the records. Hope that clarifies your thoughts on the matter.  

 

[Ron Wagner + 706]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:11 PM, markslawson said:

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the British magazine Spectator a couple of weeks back. In essence, academics are FINALLY starting to realise that wind droughts are an issue with intermittent systems and studying them. As the article notes some work has been done in the UK, where it is known, for example, that some years back the wind made no contribution to the UK grid for nine days, and there were serious deficits during another drought at the end of last year. These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts. I saw some material recently on wind droughts in the US but I seem to have mislaid it. Perhaps someone has access? As for Australia there has been limited work to suggest that wind droughts in a given year might last for up to 36 hours. But that's just from one year of data. As noted in the article there is no way to store enough power to tide the grids over such long periods. Australia is building one water dam project called Snowy 2.0 (after the region) but a fully renewables network would need at least six of seven. In any case the blindness of policy makers to this issue to date is just extraordinary.        

I have never seen an article discussing the availability of sunlight during different parts of the year for solar users. Here is an explanation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox#Length_of_equinoctial_day_and_night

It is also of interest that climates that are too hot do not allow solar panels to work properly while those with more moderate days get better performance if there are not too many cloudy days. Temperatures can also be too cool or weather too snowy etc. 

I would like to know if solar is more or less variable than wind given all factors. We just bought a $2,000+ solar system with movable panels. It can run medical devices, lights, electric blankets, fans, charge phones and computers etc. My major issue is large trees. It is good for camping also. We can probably live well off the grid with a few extra solar panels and a medium sized propane tank. We already have a decorative windmill and might add a electric generating right next to it. 

We are preppers and having fun at it but praying we don't have to suffer through an ice storm or whatever. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

We have a 12KW diesel genset in the RV, recently I've had it wired to the house and a 500 gallon tank plumbed. It should be quite successful if needed 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Eyes Wide Open

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:11 PM, markslawson said:

I wrote this article  for the Australian edition of the ............These wind droughts are an extreme event like cyclones or rain droughts.

Not true at all.  Going windless 10% or less of normal capacity for upwards of 3 or even 4 weeks across a continent size scale in Europe for instance is commonplace.  Happens every ~5--10 years.  Every year one always has at least a 2 week period of very low capacity and in summer one has a month to 2 months of LOW production(25% of normal average).    Happens every winter and every summer.  Same is true here in North America.   Biggest reason wind is exploding in Texas is because historically speaking the longest drought in Texas for NO wind is about 4 days whereas "low" is a week with the normal summer lows mixed in.

A couple years back on this very forum I used Germany's own data with UK data to show this. 

I have done this previously using USA data as well as part of my job for testing and determining wind turbine siting. 

If you wish to look for basic information look up WIND ROSE.  Pick a weather station.  Almost any weather station and look up its wind rose.  It will give strength etc.  Or better yet, often go to a specific wind farm data center and use their own readouts. 

My old links I used to use have died so... look around.  They are probably still there just have been hidden.  All of this information used to be blatantly shown and easily found.  Today?  They love hiding unwelcome truth.

[markslawson + 1,057]

19 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Not true at all.  Going windless 10% or less of normal capacity for upwards of 3 or even 4 weeks across a continent size scale in Europe for instance is commonplace.  Happens every ~5--10 years.

That is an extreme event.. like a major hurricane or whatever. What I think you mean is that wind droughts are far too common for the comfort of the many wind enthusiasts, and that I would agree with. There are also the many micro wind-droughts which are almost as big a problem. Thanks for the comments on finding the wind information. I wasn't planning on looking at the material myself, I just wondered if anyone had a handy link to a summary but no matter. Thanks for that.   

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:05 PM, markslawson said:

Jay - no practical grid level storage is anywhere near commercial implementation aside from dams, as you well know (batteries don't count). There are plenty of suggestions and pilot projects, that may be what you're thinking of. I'm not sure why you thought pointing to wind droughts during summer did anything but reinforce my case, however you will recall that night also occurs in Summer as well as overcast days, and there is still no way to store the power on anything like the scale required, except for dams. As for your other remarks on wind droughts in the US - no something was said recently and I was hoping someone could point to the material. If you can't find the material it hardly matters, and certainly doesn't affect what I said. It is a matter for researchers to get busy and check the records. Hope that clarifies your thoughts on the matter.  

 

Solar is at max during summer and will makeup for the summer wind droughts. Batteries are a fantastic storage for hourly load shifting that work extremely well with solar and they are growing very, very fast. You are just choosing to ignore them. Oh and California's large grid level battery storage is proving extremely practical during its commercial implementation. 

California has the largest amount of utility-scale batteries connected to the grid in the U.S., reaching 3,163 MW as of June 1, according to CAISO. And many more large battery storage systems are expected, with 700 MW projected to have been added last month, said CAISO CEO Elliot Mainzer.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/california-grid-operator-enhances-reliability-prospects-utility-battery-storage/627083/

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

13 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Solar is at max during summer and will makeup for the summer wind droughts. Batteries are a fantastic storage for hourly load shifting that work extremely well with solar and they are growing very, very fast. You are just choosing to ignore them. Oh and California's large grid level battery storage is proving extremely practical during its commercial implementation. 

California has the largest amount of utility-scale batteries connected to the grid in the U.S., reaching 3,163 MW as of June 1, according to CAISO. And many more large battery storage systems are expected, with 700 MW projected to have been added last month, said CAISO CEO Elliot Mainzer.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/california-grid-operator-enhances-reliability-prospects-utility-battery-storage/627083/

Surging electric bills threaten Calif. climate goals

By Anne C. Mulkern | 04/05/2022 06:45 AM EDT

Millions of Californians pay among the highest prices in the nation for electricity, a potential threat to the state’s plans to electrify cars and homes as it battles climate change.

Surging electricity prices of the three biggest utilities in the Golden State have reached levels that now are more than double the national average, as posted by the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Bills are projected to keep climbing as utilities address wildfire risk from their power lines and add electric vehicle charging stations. Ratepayers ultimately bankroll those costs.

The state as a result faces a looming crisis, some analysts say. California wants residents to swap gasoline-fueled cars and natural gas heaters for electric models. But if power rates keep rising, it will cost more to plug in an EV at home than to fill up a gas tank, economists project.

https://www.eenews.net/articles/surging-electric-bills-threaten-calif-climate-goals/

Here’s why your electricity prices are high and soaring

PG&E customers pay about 80% more per kilowatt-hour than the national average, according to a study by the energy institute at UC Berkeley’s Haas Business School with the nonprofit think tank Next 10. The study analyzed the rates of the state’s three largest investor-owned utilities and found that Southern California Edison charged 45% more than the national average, while San Diego Gas & Electric charged double. Even low-income residents enrolled in the California Alternate Rates for Energy program paid more than the average American.

https://calmatters.org/california-divide/debt/2021/03/california-high-electricity-prices/

Edited July 25, 2022 by Eyes Wide Open

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

31 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Surging electric bills threaten Calif. climate goals

By Anne C. Mulkern | 04/05/2022 06:45 AM EDT

Millions of Californians pay among the highest prices in the nation for electricity, a potential threat to the state’s plans to electrify cars and homes as it battles climate change.

Surging electricity prices of the three biggest utilities in the Golden State have reached levels that now are more than double the national average, as posted by the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Bills are projected to keep climbing as utilities address wildfire risk from their power lines and add electric vehicle charging stations. Ratepayers ultimately bankroll those costs.

The state as a result faces a looming crisis, some analysts say. California wants residents to swap gasoline-fueled cars and natural gas heaters for electric models. But if power rates keep rising, it will cost more to plug in an EV at home than to fill up a gas tank, economists project.

https://www.eenews.net/articles/surging-electric-bills-threaten-calif-climate-goals/

Our electricity rates are all about the wildfire and natural gas costs. EV charging stations are a big nothing because utilities don't pay for them. The charging company does and the station pays the utility for the electricity.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Jay McKinsey

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Our electricity rates are all about the wildfire costs. EV charging stations are a big nothing because utilities don't pay for them. The charging company does and the station pays the utility for the electricity.

Get Ready for Another Energy Price Spike: High Electric Bills

Rates have jumped because of a surge in natural gas prices and could keep rising rapidly for years as utilities invest in electric grids.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/business/energy-environment/high-electric-bills-summer.html

High electric bills catch Redondo by surprise

 

From $50 to $195, $43 to $139, $67 to $147; reports of booming Southern California Edison bills spread through Redondo Beach in January.

Mayor Bill Brand told the city council that his went from $60 to $157 in a month.

https://easyreadernews.com/high-electric-bills-catch-redondo-by-surprise/

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Just now, Eyes Wide Open said:

Get Ready for Another Energy Price Spike: High Electric Bills

Rates have jumped because of a surge in natural gas prices and could keep rising rapidly for years as utilities invest in electric grids.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/business/energy-environment/high-electric-bills-summer.html

High electric bills catch Redondo by surprise

 

From $50 to $195, $43 to $139, $67 to $147; reports of booming Southern California Edison bills spread through Redondo Beach in January.

Mayor Bill Brand told the city council that his went from $60 to $157 in a month.

https://easyreadernews.com/high-electric-bills-catch-redondo-by-surprise/

Yep, the more low cost renewables we can get on the grid the less high priced natural gas we will have to buy.

 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Yep, the more low cost renewables we can get on the grid the less high priced natural gas we will have to buy.

 

You don't have extraordinary high gas prices. Worst case, 1/3 of going European rates

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3035ca3m.htm

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

14 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

You don't have extraordinary high gas prices. Worst case, 1/3 of going European rates

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3035ca3m.htm

It still costs a lot more than renewables.

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,243]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It still costs a lot more than renewables.

Not true at all. Solar and Wind take too long for return on the initial investment. Natural gas if NOT liquified and sent overseas we'd be half of 8.80.  Nuclear is probably the cheapest and is half as "dirty" than Solar and Wind. Let China pollute its own landmass making this crap. Highly toxic in the process of making and shipping etc. You don't ever mention how all this crap is mined and then to the finished product. Highly toxic to the atmosphere. California needs slide into the damn ocean. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

3 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

California has the largest amount of utility-scale batteries connected to the grid in the U.S., reaching 3,163 MW as of June 1, according to CAISO. And many more large battery storage systems are expected, with 700 MW projected to have been added last month, said CAISO CEO Elliot Mainzer.

Jay - as I think we've discussed before the figures you quote in your post are utterly trivial. Simply not worth mentioning. By grid level storage I meant storage that might tie the Californian grid over for days or even weeks not seconds. Battery storage has its usages in stabilising the grid and keeping up power while the dreaded fossil fuel generators are switched back on but they are NOT a solution to the problem of wind droughts. I ask you to adjust to that reality. This is not adding to the discussion so I'll move on. Leave it with you. 

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

31 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

Not true at all. Solar and Wind take too long for return on the initial investment. Natural gas if NOT liquified and sent overseas we'd be half of 8.80.  Nuclear is probably the cheapest and is half as "dirty" than Solar and Wind. Let China pollute its own landmass making this crap. Highly toxic in the process of making and shipping etc. You don't ever mention how all this crap is mined and then to the finished product. Highly toxic to the atmosphere. California needs slide into the damn ocean. 

Nuclear got the longest ROI of all, though?

PV silicon is not toxic to the atmosphere. It is not much different to regular sand. With more elaborate a-Si/heterojunction setups, you might get a negligible amount of rare earth metals in the TCO layer, which are not really toxic either. You need nothing but lots of heat to make bulk silicon. Thin film deposition mostly uses silane-related gases which also decompose to regular sand. So, they can, at least in theory, be produced fairly cleanly.

Ditto for windmills. You mostly use heat to make the constituent fiberglass. Just like any glass. There is a problem with recycling the stuff afterwards, so it would probably be a good idea to switch to carbon fiber instead. Which will burn like regular coal.

[Andrei Moutchkine + 828]

1 hour ago, Old-Ruffneck said:

Not true at all. Solar and Wind take too long for return on the initial investment. Natural gas if NOT liquified and sent overseas we'd be half of 8.80.  Nuclear is probably the cheapest and is half as "dirty" than Solar and Wind. Let China pollute its own landmass making this crap. Highly toxic in the process of making and shipping etc. You don't ever mention how all this crap is mined and then to the finished product. Highly toxic to the atmosphere. California needs slide into the damn ocean. 

Interesting tidbit I just found. There was apparently no actual Chinese PV silicon before 2005, which I figure is surprisingly late

https://www.bernreuter.com/polysilicon/manufacturers/

77% of the market now. Were you just as upset when the stuff was mostly American-made?

Monocrystalline (defect-free) wafers are still overwhelmingly Japanese, but that's probably progressively irrelevant for PV. (much any heterojunction tech largely compensates for the defects)

Back in 2005, when I was a sorta VC investing in PV tech, was bulk silicone actually universally believed dead. Nobody would touch an investment with a ten-foot pole Apparently, not true either.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

10 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Jay - as I think we've discussed before the figures you quote in your post are utterly trivial. Simply not worth mentioning. By grid level storage I meant storage that might tie the Californian grid over for days or even weeks not seconds. Battery storage has its usages in stabilising the grid and keeping up power while the dreaded fossil fuel generators are switched back on but they are NOT a solution to the problem of wind droughts. I ask you to adjust to that reality. This is not adding to the discussion so I'll move on. Leave it with you. 

Batteries can easily get the grid to 85% renewable share. Multi-day combined wind and solar droughts are very rare extreme events and can easily be backed up with natural gas if nothing else is available in the near term. Storage beyond batteries is only needed for that last 15%. From green hydrogen to compressed air there are solutions in rapid development. 

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,243]

15 minutes ago, Andrei Moutchkine said:

Interesting tidbit I just found. There was apparently no actual Chinese PV silicon before 2005, which I figure is surprisingly late

https://www.bernreuter.com/polysilicon/manufacturers/

77% of the market now. Were you just as upset when the stuff was mostly American-made?

Monocrystalline (defect-free) wafers are still overwhelmingly Japanese, but that's probably progressively irrelevant for PV. (much any heterojunction tech largely compensates for the defects)

Back in 2005, when I was a sorta VC investing in PV tech, was bulk silicone actually universally believed dead. Nobody would touch an investment with a ten-foot pole Apparently, not true either.

No, my whole point is that there is a ton of "dirty" polluting of waters and landmass to mine even windmills. There surely is alot of copper, aluminum, and other finite metals that are difficult to extract but some here think it's totally ''clean'' not counting the massive mining worldwide to make these. I was in Texas and posted photos of the "freeze" that the grid wasn't ready for.. My thinking is .50 caliber armor piercing round and start plunking 'em. Goverment subsidies that some of us hard working tax payers end up eating the cost of all this crap and in 15 years will be crapped out. The longevity of all this is 15 years and degrades to nadda. Them battery packs Jay thinks so highly of is even bigger waste of money.  The problem is, we can't afford it without printing more multi-billions and make the dollar worth even less. 

Maybe they will run outta water and have to truly pay for it. More wind drought and rain drought..........

Edited July 26, 2022 by Old-Ruffneck