Why hydrogen economics does not work

[markslawson + 1,057]

15 hours ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

Found this :

https://ammoniaindustry.com/ammonia-for-energy-storage-economic-and-technical-analysis/

That's certainly the best discussion I've seen so far but it does say, right at the end, that theb process has yet to be proven on an industrial scale, so we'll have to see.. but thanks for that. 

[NickW + 2,714]

7 hours ago, markslawson said:

That's certainly the best discussion I've seen so far but it does say, right at the end, that theb process has yet to be proven on an industrial scale, so we'll have to see.. but thanks for that. 

Your answer lies in the report:

As a solution for grid-level storage, ammonia seems a poor choice primarily because of its relatively low round-trip efficiency (23-41%) compared to other emerging technologies such as liquid air (50-70% round-trip efficiency) and pumped heat energy storage (72-80%).

For clarity when I said 'storage' further back I did not mean it to be a storage mechanism like pumped storage or a battery. it was simply a reference to the fact that Ammonia is easy to store in a tank compared to Hydrogen.

The answer here is that if you have used electricity to make ammonia then stick with that. Ammonia has lots of uses - refrigeration gas, fertiliser and can be used as a substitute for diesel. This offsets the use of Natural gas for the same purposes which is easier to store for use later. Trying to use Ammonia as an electrical battery is an efficiency disaster.

[NickW + 2,714]

T

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:36 PM, Guillaume Albasini said:

Found this :

https://ammoniaindustry.com/ammonia-for-energy-storage-economic-and-technical-analysis/

This site has a good article comparing the costs of Ammonia produced from Gas, Coal and Electrolysis

https://ammoniaindustry.com/ammonia-plant-cost-comparisons-natural-gas-coal-or-electrolysis/

It has a comparison of costs for a proposed plant in Nepal. How relevant this is to the western World I don't know but its interesting to see the comparisons. It was good to see electrolysis cheaper than coal although gas prices would need to rise a lot to make electrolysis competitive.

Nepal: Chemical Fertilizer Plant	Natural Gas	Electrolysis	Coal
CapEx, total	$665 M	$983 M	$1,300 M
OpEx, per ton	$268	$448	$372
CapEx, per ton ammonia capacity	$1,603	$2,370	$3,134

[Bill Simpson + 7]

The problem with hydrogen is that it is a light gas. That means dangerously high pressure will be needed to use it as a fuel. Just about the only places hydrogen is used is where nothing else will work because the element hydrogen is needed in some chemical reaction. 

If you want a good laugh, read, 'The Hydrogen Hoax', by former NASA scientist, Robert Zubrin. Some problems he mentions may have been solved, but not the basic problems of using hydrogen. It might be widely used as a fuel someday, but not until natural gas, oil, and coal are getting much more expensive than they are today. 

Widespread hydrogen use as a fuel reminds me of nuclear fusion. They have been about 10 years away for the last half century. 

[Frank Wylie + 4]

The numbers are correct.  There appears to be some opportunity to use surplus solar power, where out of state utilities are being paid to use surplus solar and wind power from California for example.  In Texas, there are times when wind power is curtailed or electric purchases from ERCOT are at zero costs due to high wind production.  I suspect this " free" electricity could be used to produce Hydrogen to power engines for power production at night for example, or transportation.

[Guillaume Albasini + 851]

2 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

The numbers are correct.  There appears to be some opportunity to use surplus solar power, where out of state utilities are being paid to use surplus solar and wind power from California for example.  In Texas, there are times when wind power is curtailed or electric purchases from ERCOT are at zero costs due to high wind production.  I suspect this " free" electricity could be used to produce Hydrogen to power engines for power production at night for example, or transportation.

In Europe and mainly in Germany several projects are testing the Power-to gas technology to store the excess renewable energy. It could be interesting for overcoming the summer/winter imbalances. But will this solution be cost competitive in the future ?

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/power-gas-fix-all-problems-or-simply-too-expensive

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, Frank Wylie said:

The numbers are correct.  There appears to be some opportunity to use surplus solar power, where out of state utilities are being paid to use surplus solar and wind power from California for example.  In Texas, there are times when wind power is curtailed or electric purchases from ERCOT are at zero costs due to high wind production.  I suspect this " free" electricity could be used to produce Hydrogen to power engines for power production at night for example, or transportation.

If the electricity is effectively free one option is to convert into Hydrogen and then blend into the gas network. 

Convert more  transport (Public transport & heavy goods) to CNG. 

[minio orellana + 1]

HI there people. Using hydrogen gas is is markedly cleaner than burning fossil fuels. The problem here seems we still need fossil fuel to produce, store and transport hydrogen gas. And finally the infrastructure to distribute the gas - along the free ways.  The electric vehicle industry is addressing these issues. Let's support this new emerging fuel. As an example scientists/researcers recently have already found out a quite inexpensive means of producing and storing hydrogen gas. Next is the distribution infrastructure-same as in the EVs.

[NickW + 2,714]

19 hours ago, minio orellana said:

HI there people. Using hydrogen gas is is markedly cleaner than burning fossil fuels. The problem here seems we still need fossil fuel to produce, store and transport hydrogen gas. And finally the infrastructure to distribute the gas - along the free ways.  The electric vehicle industry is addressing these issues. Let's support this new emerging fuel. As an example scientists/researcers recently have already found out a quite inexpensive means of producing and storing hydrogen gas. Next is the distribution infrastructure-same as in the EVs.

The rapid development of EV's will consign Hydrogen fuelled cars to history.

Compressing Hydrogen to a useable form will require using 40% of that energy. By the time you take into account engine or fuel cell efficiencies you will be lucky to get 0.25KW of kinetic energy from 1kwh of electricity.

I see the role of Hydrogen as being something you can produce with surplus electricity if we over build Nuclear / renewable systems. It then gets use to produce other products such as Ammonia or blended into the natural gas network. This is a practical way of using a renewable resource to gradually decarbonise our fuels.

Edited August 14, 2018 by NickW
correction

[ronwagn + 6,290]

Nick W. You will find that natural gas makes the most sense for production of electricity and for transportation fuel. Nuclear is the least competitive of all the technologies if you consider the true lifetime cost including thousands of years of storage. (Possibly longer than mankind is around). "Renewables" are Not Really renewable. They are manmade machines that have a lifespan and must be destroyed, safely disposed of and replaced with whatever makes the most sense at that time. Natural gas (methane) is continuously renewing itself. Every living thing turns into methane eventually with a little mineral matter left over. 

I hope electric cars succeed because natural gas will be used to make most of the electricity for them. I would also like to see hybrid trucks that run like locomotive engines, but preferably running on LNG or CNG. http://www.edisontechcenter.org/Dieseltrains.html

 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

Nick W. You will find that natural gas makes the most sense for production of electricity and for transportation fuel. Nuclear is the least competitive of all the technologies if you consider the true lifetime cost including thousands of years of storage. (Possibly longer than mankind is around). "Renewables" are Not Really renewable. (the source of energy is)They are manmade machines that have a lifespan and must be destroyed, safely disposed of and replaced with whatever makes the most sense at that time. Natural gas (methane) is continuously renewing itself. Every living thing turns into methane eventually with a little mineral matter left over. -Nope - only in certain conditions where that organic matter decomposes in anaerobic conditions. The vast majority of organic matter rots aerobically so turns into Carbon Dioxide and Water

I hope electric cars succeed because natural gas will be used to make most of the electricity for them. I would also like to see hybrid trucks that run like locomotive engines, but preferably running on LNG or CNG. http://www.edisontechcenter.org/Dieseltrains.html

 

 

[Wally + 7]

I have read so many learned and well written responses to this post. I would like to say that most contending that Hydrogen powered vehicles are un-economic, seem to fail to grasp the fact that Hydrogen powered vehicles are already here, are very popular in Australia and cost competitive. The market is set to expand.

The idea of drilling for oil in thousands of feet of water, building subsea pumping stations piping oil to the surface etc would seem to have many more cost implications that just splitting good old water and storing the hydrogen. Think, anyone can do it anywhere it is pretty basic chemistry, it does not need a rocket scientist (pun intended).

Economies of scale will ensure that this option could become Very cheap.

If you want to see how many vehicle manufacturers are already planning / producing Hydrogen powered vehicles, just do some research.

The Saudi's are right to be rushing to find alternatives to their (in my opinion) very expensive oil, as they have shot themselves in the foot, they have really put their foot on the gas as far as encouraging nations, companies, everyman and his dog to examine all alternatives.

Hence the reason for this discussion.

Can the oil price go up another $10 a barrel - Sure if they want the demand to dry up 5 years earlier than it will if it drops below $65.

In my opinion of course.

[entertenter + 24]

So far, using or burning hydrogen is seen as very environmentally friendly process. Thats what most people see, while hydrogen production and storage is wateful of both energy and material resources. What could help to start hydrogen economy, is more efficient high temperature water hydrolysis, as part of hydrolysis energy comes from heat directly. Or even pure thermolysis at temperatures 2500+C can be used (but temperatures that high are impractical). In addition to higher efficiency, cheaper energy source is a key to hydrogen success. For example high temperature nuclear reactors, or  concentrating solar thermal collectors can be sources of cheap enough heat.
But as long, as it is cheaper than any form of hydrolysis to produce hydrogen from natural gas, there is no point in either hydrogen economy.
If solar hydrogen production plants emerge, that can compete with natural gas hydrogen source, it will be a game changer.

Edited August 15, 2018 by entertenter

[ferrellcarr + 1]

There is not a viable solution because the corporate controlled government does not want one.

[Jo Mack + 43]

So agree with the comments.  To create hydrogen you need gas or water.  It's very volatile. We all watched the Hindinberg and the Challenger.  Not stable.

[wa601 + 18]

On 8/13/2018 at 11:07 PM, Guillaume Albasini said:

In Europe and mainly in Germany several projects are testing the Power-to gas technology to store the excess renewable energy. It could be interesting for overcoming the summer/winter imbalances. But will this solution be cost competitive in the future ?

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/power-gas-fix-all-problems-or-simply-too-expensive

I am working for one of these German companies and some years ago I calculated some simplified business cases for power-to-gas. There are different process solutions. However, you need the hydrogen and a carbon source for synthesis of methane = natural gas. Either CO or CO2 as carbon source. Issue with CO2 is the availability in Germany for the big industrial scale of the methanation necessary for viability. Post combustion CO2 capture failed in power plant scale. Capturing from air seems strange for me. Good point: The CO2 processing methanation catalyst is currently tested in pilot plant Falkenhagen. Issue with CO is required generation from carbanacous material. This could be biomass, waste, coal (e.g. gasification of abundant & cheap german lignite with mining costs of 10-12 Euro per ton as received, water up  to 50%. That means: either you have CO2 available in huge scale or you have to produce CO by gasification. Which process way do you want to go? Which carbon source can you utilize for your own investment? Personally, I know that production of CO from coal is not (yet?) wanted in Germany. Possible solution could be gasification of biomass or waste which is technically little bit more sophisticated. If this biomass or waste based plant can get revenues from feedstock consumption (gate fee for waste), CO2 certificates and methane as product as well can produce with low Opex because of cheap power for hydrogen production, then there could be a economical feasible project despite complex technology with high CAPEX and high risk compared to a power plant. However, natural gas is a low value product and has to compete in Germany with russian gas. I would produce with this plant a product with higher value or even better move on to power to ammonia and skip the costly gasification plant or the issue with CO2 availability at necessary big scale and low price.

Edited August 15, 2018 by wa601

[Wally + 7]

On 8/16/2018 at 1:13 AM, Jo Mack said:

So agree with the comments.  To create hydrogen you need gas or water.  It's very volatile. We all watched the Hindinberg and the Challenger.  Not stable.

I would like to point out one source of good information / data relating to this topic, I imagine some will find it quite informative.

https://pureenergycentre.com/

I believe in relation to this topic, it has already been pointed out that the prefereed way to store hydrogen is via

This site is the first that I found that reported that Norway will be the first Nation to remove Petrol and Diesel powered cars from its roads and plans that no new cars that run on either will be sold in Norway after 2025...