Saudi Fund Wants to Take Tesla Private?

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

26 minutes ago, NickW said:

I would never expect developing countries to lead on new developments in cars or other transit systems.

I don't really understand your obsession against EV's (and in that context I also include PHEV).

EV's currently work reasonable well in city environments and charging networks in densely populated regions make travel feasible. PHEV are there to cover the distances if needed in any size vehicle. Both are far more efficient than conventional ICE 's and in the case of EV's they have less complex maintenance requirements.

EV and PHEV technology is already being used in Urban / Suburban bus transit systems. Similarly this technology can roll out to light and medium commercial.

I'd agree that heavy goods is unlikely but one option would be to convert these over to gas. CNG powered freight has been around for a while.

 

This is fuel demand in EU:

 

Assuming that petrol is the only one which can be replaced by EV, the share of petroleum that can be replaced turns out to be too minimal. It is about 15% of petroleum in EU too. USA is the exception that consumes 45% of gasoline. Also, EV will find it too difficult to substitute all the cars on gasoline while some diesel cars can be substituted by EVs making up the deficit. So, even if EV comes in, the result will be insignificant.

Media has been hyping up EV unnecessarily. Problems like electricity supply, petrochemical raw materials needed, lithium battery replacement every 7 years will come in the way. I agree that EV is a good thing for now to slow down the end of petroleum. But that is not the end solution. The problems that will come with slow charging, lack of emergency king range miles etc can make a lot of problems.

[NickW + 2,714]

18 minutes ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

This is fuel demand in EU:

 

Assuming that petrol is the only one which can be replaced by EV, the share of petroleum that can be replaced turns out to be too minimal. It is about 15% of petroleum in EU too. USA is the exception that consumes 45% of gasoline. Also, EV will find it too difficult to substitute all the cars on gasoline while some diesel cars can be substituted by EVs making up the deficit. So, even if EV comes in, the result will be insignificant.

Media has been hyping up EV unnecessarily. Problems like electricity supply, petrochemical raw materials needed, lithium battery replacement every 7 years will come in the way. I agree that EV is a good thing for now to slow down the end of petroleum. But that is not the end solution. The problems that will come with slow charging, lack of emergency king range miles etc can make a lot of problems.

In many European countries in-excess of 50% of cars are diesel. These can easily be replaced by PHEV or EV's (especially as range improves). 

Virtually all Vans are diesel - then could easily switch to a PHEV mode or EV if operating in urban environments. 

[NickW + 2,714]

27 minutes ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

This is fuel demand in EU:

 

Assuming that petrol is the only one which can be replaced by EV, the share of petroleum that can be replaced turns out to be too minimal. It is about 15% of petroleum in EU too. USA is the exception that consumes 45% of gasoline. Also, EV will find it too difficult to substitute all the cars on gasoline while some diesel cars can be substituted by EVs making up the deficit. So, even if EV comes in, the result will be insignificant.

Media has been hyping up EV unnecessarily. Problems like electricity supply, petrochemical raw materials needed, lithium battery replacement every 7 years will come in the way. I agree that EV is a good thing for now to slow down the end of petroleum. But that is not the end solution. The problems that will come with slow charging, lack of emergency king range miles etc can make a lot of problems.

In many European countries in-excess of 50% of cars are diesel. These can easily be replaced by PHEV or EV's (especially as range improves). 

Virtually all Vans are diesel - then could easily switch to a PHEV mode or EV if operating in urban environments. 

[NickW + 2,714]

Bhimsen - I don't know why you are so anti EV - these strike me as ideal for India especially as battery costs fall steeply. 

• EV's are simpler to maintain
• Indias climate is ideal (cold is the EV killer) so no need for heating or air con (most indians I have met seem to like it around 35 deg C)
• Traffic goes no where in Indian cities so the stop start nature of EV's is ideal
• If your range aspirations are set by the Bullock express then a range of 80-90 miles is ideal
• Air quality is appalling in many Indian cities 
• The cities are noisy - EV's are nice and quiet.

What not to like?😄

 

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

9 hours ago, NickW said:

Bhimsen - I don't know why you are so anti EV - these strike me as ideal for India especially as battery costs fall steeply. 

• EV's are simpler to maintain
• Indias climate is ideal (cold is the EV killer) so no need for heating or air con (most indians I have met seem to like it around 35 deg C)
• Traffic goes no where in Indian cities so the stop start nature of EV's is ideal
• If your range aspirations are set by the Bullock express then a range of 80-90 miles is ideal
• Air quality is appalling in many Indian cities 
• The cities are noisy - EV's are nice and quiet.

What not to like?😄

 

I find EV as desperate measure without fundamental basis. One can't be too sure of the requirements in life and needs to take contingency. For example if the commute distance is just 10km, why not use a bicycle? Why use EV? The real problem of EV comes here:

1) Charging 80kWH (300km travel) needs about 100kWh electricity considering charging losses and heat generated. A house wiring is rated to about 3.5kW power (16A in 220V). So, charging will take about 28hours with full power of home going to car.

2) The battery is underneath which means that any stone, pebble or bumps that hit the bottom of the car can damage the battery pack. These are pretty usual events while travelling longer distance outside cities

3) The EV servicing of batteries is quite cumbersome and needs weeks or months as the removal of case, replacement etc take a lot of time

4) Accidents are quite common. If Battery packs are hit severely, Lithium batteries are known to burst in flames. Tesla crash tests carefully avoid hitting the lower end of the car in side crash tests to avoid such problems

5) Street floods of about 1 feet is quite common and Tesla is unlikely to handle them well.

6) EVs can't be used for long distance travel or commercial operations.

7) Manufacturing, servicing of EVs require massive petrochemicals and petroelum derived items. So, replacing will be difficult

 

EV simply creates an illusion of false hopes which is what one must not give. It only encourages retarded behaviour. Though you despise the bullock/horse cart, if you consider the charging time needed and the infrastructure needed, you might as well say that horse is better than EV in all places except cities

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

I find EV as desperate measure without fundamental basis. One can't be too sure of the requirements in life and needs to take contingency. For example if the commute distance is just 10km, why not use a bicycle? Why use EV? The real problem of EV comes here:

1) Charging 80kWH (300km travel) needs about 100kWh electricity considering charging losses and heat generated. A house wiring is rated to about 3.5kW power (16A in 220V). So, charging will take about 28hours with full power of home going to car.

2) The battery is underneath which means that any stone, pebble or bumps that hit the bottom of the car can damage the battery pack. These are pretty usual events while travelling longer distance outside cities

3) The EV servicing of batteries is quite cumbersome and needs weeks or months as the removal of case, replacement etc take a lot of time

4) Accidents are quite common. If Battery packs are hit severely, Lithium batteries are known to burst in flames. Tesla crash tests carefully avoid hitting the lower end of the car in side crash tests to avoid such problems

5) Street floods of about 1 feet is quite common and Tesla is unlikely to handle them well.

6) EVs can't be used for long distance travel or commercial operations.

7) Manufacturing, servicing of EVs require massive petrochemicals and petroelum derived items. So, replacing will be difficult

 

EV simply creates an illusion of false hopes which is what one must not give. It only encourages retarded behaviour. Though you despise the bullock/horse cart, if you consider the charging time needed and the infrastructure needed, you might as well say that horse is better than EV in all places except cities

In response:

Why not cycle 10km? - shopping, children to transport, disability, weather, safety, loads to transport and 101 other reasons

1. That's a pretty ungenerous fuel economy but working with that. In Europe the standard home chargers are 6.6 KW.. Electric Showers can take up to a 50amp supply off a single phase so potentially you could have a 10KW charger which would charge an 80 kwh battery from empty to full overnight.

Even on a 3.5KW charger on a day to day basis you simply charge every night which minimises the risk of having anything but a full battery in the morning.

Looking back over the last 2 years I can't of a single journey I have taken which was 300km in one go. If I did I would want to stop for a break & coffee and in Europe there are loads of charging facilities along major routes. Stop for a coffee, top up the battery at 40-60KW/h and on we go.

In a scenario where I did want to go off the beaten track (probably about once every 3 years) I could always just hire an ICE / PHEV car.

2.  how do exhausts and Catalytic converters ever cope. Seriously the batteries have a casing and such events have been thought out by the manufacturers

3. It takes a couple of hours manually. Tesla have just built a robot that does it in 90 seconds

4. Petrol. LPG and CNG are quite flammable too

  Official crash tests are performed by Government agencies not the manufacturer

5. Invest some money in proper drainage. ICE cars don't like 12inches of water either.

6. Providing you have recharge facilities along that route in principle they can. A halfway house option, although more complex is the PHEV.

7. Likewise for ICE cars.

 

Your energy economics are off with the fairies. Next you will be telling me candles are a better source of light than LED's

A horse / Ox needs 1-2 acres of pasture minimum for food requirements - probably more if used as a draft animal. In that same acre you could place a 3 MW wind turbine which at 25% capacity factor would generate enough electricity to charge around 1800 Nissan Leafs for 18000 km of travel per year. You can do the same calculation with CCGT / Coal / Nuclear but the wind turbine demonstrates how little space you need relative to the power output.

Don't tell me India doesn't do wind or solar

How much Wheat / Rice / Maize / Sorghum / millet can you grow on 1800-3600 acres?

Edited August 22, 2018 by NickW