Saudi Fund Wants to Take Tesla Private?

[Robert Ziegler + 121]

On 8/14/2018 at 8:38 AM, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Venezuela has ultra heavy oil which needs other light petroleum to blend. Also, the problem in Venezuela is because of nationalisation of oil industry and oil fields. If Venezuela was open to foreign purchase of its oil fields, then the problem would not ave been there in the first place

You can make any type of product from heavy oil (cracking) as much as you can make any type of product from gas or condensate, even coal ( Fischer-Tropsch). You "just" need to invest a few billions into a refinery, and even worse, get a Gov permit for it, which has been impossible in the western world for the past decades. Even for the post-oil era, the best transport (syn)fuel is still liquid hydrocarbons, NOT hydrogen or partially oxygenated hydrocarbons - Schnaps (ethanol). This idea of carrying half  or 3/4 a ton or more batteries around to replace 20 pounds of gasoline (that is all the energy content of a big Tesla battery) is just lunacy. And because of electrochemistry, there never will be a revolution in battery technology.... And fuel cells? Best and cheapest source for hydrogen is still natural gas.... So crazy to waste the energy to turn it into hydrogen, better run it directly in an ICE.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Robert Ziegler

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, Robert Ziegler said:

You can make any type of product from heavy oil (cracking) as much as you can make any type of product from gas or condensate, even coal ( Fischer-Tropsch). You "just" need to invest a few billions into a refinery, and even worse, get a Gov permit for it, which has been impossible in the western world for the past decades. Even for the post-oil era, the best transport (syn)fuel is still liquid hydrocarbons, NOT hydrogen or partially oxygenated hydrocarbons - Schnaps (ethanol). This idea of carrying half  or 3/4 a ton or more batteries around to replace 20 pounds of gasoline (that is all the energy content of a big Tesla battery) is just lunacy. And because of electrochemistry, there never will be a revolution in battery technology.... And fuel cells? Best and cheapest source for hydrogen is still natural gas.... So crazy to waste the energy to turn it into hydrogen, better run it directly in an ICE.

Which is partially offset by the fact that EV motors are much lighter than what an ICE engine, gearbox, fuel and exhaust system weighs. 

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

10 hours ago, Robert Ziegler said:

You can make any type of product from heavy oil (cracking) as much as you can make any type of product from gas or condensate, even coal ( Fischer-Tropsch). You "just" need to invest a few billions into a refinery, and even worse, get a Gov permit for it, which has been impossible in the western world for the past decades. Even for the post-oil era, the best transport (syn)fuel is still liquid hydrocarbons, NOT hydrogen or partially oxygenated hydrocarbons - Schnaps (ethanol). This idea of carrying half  or 3/4 a ton or more batteries around to replace 20 pounds of gasoline (that is all the energy content of a big Tesla battery) is just lunacy. And because of electrochemistry, there never will be a revolution in battery technology.... And fuel cells? Best and cheapest source for hydrogen is still natural gas.... So crazy to waste the energy to turn it into hydrogen, better run it directly in an ICE.

EV is never a good idea. It is just desperate idea.

About oil sands being used with fischer tropsch like coal liquefaction, the main problem is that oil sands have to be extracted in big cranes, carried in trucks, washed with water, trsnsported again to plants of liquefaction or blending etc. These steps are far too cumbersome and is difficult to do it mass scale. As of now, canada needs to blend with light oil from imports. Getting more than current amount of tar sands will be a problem

[Robert Ziegler + 121]

18 hours ago, NickW said:

Which is partially offset by the fact that EV motors are much lighter than what an ICE engine, gearbox, fuel and exhaust system weighs. 

Indeed, there was a really sensible EV that the customers really liked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhnjMdzGusc

[Stephen + 67]

On 8/13/2018 at 10:40 AM, Adam Varga said:

Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund has been pushing to take electric carmaker Tesla private in talks with Elon Musk dating back nearly two years and also backed the deal last week, according to Musk. 

Investors were already in shock with Musk's last week announcement that he was looking to take Tesla private at $420 a share, valuing company at $72 billion, providing no details on funding except that it was "secured."

Tesla Inc. shares sank 8% on Friday, as investors digested the news of a widening Securities and Exchange Commission probe of Chief Executive Elon Musk’s handling of a tweet disclosing his wish to take the company private.

[Sefko Trafikant + 35]

Things are not going well in 3Q18 for Tesla’s production and profitability, hence, the plan B “going private” is in play....if it doesn’t go through the stock will be under $200 by the end of the year

[Cokiga Damke + 53]

1 minute ago, Sefko Trafikant said:

Things are not going well in 3Q18 for Tesla’s production and profitability, hence, the plan B “going private” is in play....if it doesn’t go through the stock will be under $200 by the end of the year

Q2 2018 numbers show Tesla has negative working capital that now exceeds their free cash and almost half their free cash is refundable customer deposits. CEO appears to be coming unhinged.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:38 AM, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

EV is never a good idea. It is just desperate idea.

About oil sands being used with fischer tropsch like coal liquefaction, the main problem is that oil sands have to be extracted in big cranes, carried in trucks, washed with water, trsnsported again to plants of liquefaction or blending etc. These steps are far too cumbersome and is difficult to do it mass scale. As of now, canada needs to blend with light oil from imports. Getting more than current amount of tar sands will be a problem

Thats a bit of a generalisation.

I know a couple of people who run Nissan Leafs (not the Teslas the EV critics always focus upon) that they picked up for less than 10K. They do most of their travel in them and mostly charge them overnight on off peak for a small fraction of what the equivalent petrol would cost. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 8/16/2018 at 4:38 AM, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

EV is never a good idea. It is just desperate idea.

About oil sands being used with fischer tropsch like coal liquefaction, the main problem is that oil sands have to be extracted in big cranes, carried in trucks, washed with water, trsnsported again to plants of liquefaction or blending etc. These steps are far too cumbersome and is difficult to do it mass scale. As of now, canada needs to blend with light oil from imports. Getting more than current amount of tar sands will be a problem

You also seem to be overlooking the sense of satisfaction some people get when their solar panels are putting 3KW into their car Battery and they are thinking f88k you (Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell etc) 

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

You also seem to be overlooking the sense of satisfaction some people get when their solar panels are putting 3KW into their car Battery and they are thinking f88k you (Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell etc) 

Frankly speaking, USA has lots of land and comparatively less population. People can use horses instead of EVs! Horses have enough grass to feed as there is plenty of land. Even bulls to replace horses will do.

These EV cars may look hunky dory but at the end of the day, the replacement battery, recharge during long distance travel, emergency needs like hospitalisation and frequent travels can be a major drawback. Also, most of the commercial vehicles can never use EV due to long distance travel needed

[NickW + 2,714]

4 hours ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Frankly speaking, USA has lots of land and comparatively less population. People can use horses instead of EVs! Horses have enough grass to feed as there is plenty of land. Even bulls to replace horses will do.

These EV cars may look hunky dory but at the end of the day, the replacement battery, recharge during long distance travel, emergency needs like hospitalisation and frequent travels can be a major drawback. Also, most of the commercial vehicles can never use EV due to long distance travel needed

The World extends beyond the USA 😉

EV's work  well in Urban and Suburban environments. A compromise between the EV and ICE  is the PHEV where you get the best of both worlds. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 8/18/2018 at 7:59 PM, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Frankly speaking, USA has lots of land and comparatively less population. People can use horses instead of EVs! Horses have enough grass to feed as there is plenty of land. Even bulls to replace horses will do.

These EV cars may look hunky dory but at the end of the day, the replacement battery, recharge during long distance travel, emergency needs like hospitalisation and frequent travels can be a major drawback. Also, most of the commercial vehicles can never use EV due to long distance travel needed

I've done my bit for EV promotion today. My boss was looking to buy a 2nd car (his Missus drives the main family car) for shortish commutes and round town driving. Pointed his direction towards 2nd hand Nissan Leaf's which he said that's the car for me.

He reckons that will cover all of his driving and a proportion of that done in his wifes car. 

Thats about a 1200 Litre reduction in demand for 95 Octane per year pencilled in😊

[Rodent + 1,424]

On 8/18/2018 at 11:12 AM, NickW said:

You also seem to be overlooking the sense of satisfaction some people get when their solar panels are putting 3KW into their car Battery and they are thinking f88k you (Exxon, BP, Chevron, Shell etc) 

I think you overestimate people's zeal for solar or hatred for big oil. Where you see passion, I see apathy--both for and against. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

On 8/19/2018 at 2:59 AM, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Frankly speaking, USA has lots of land and comparatively less population. People can use horses instead of EVs! Horses have enough grass to feed as there is plenty of land. Even bulls to replace horses will do.

Just ... no.  Where do I even begin.  The lack of grass in cities, perhaps?  Although the mental picture of New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles turning into a traffic jam of horses is a bit amusing.

I grew up on a dairy farm.  Clearly, you don't understand the concept of riding a bull.

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

8 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Just ... no.  Where do I even begin.  The lack of grass in cities, perhaps?  Although the mental picture of New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles turning into a traffic jam of horses is a bit amusing.

I grew up on a dairy farm.  Clearly, you don't understand the concept of riding a bull.

Yes, cities will have difficulty in growing grass but the grass can be grown in villages and brought into cities or at least smaller towns.

Bullock carts are quite popular in India, from where I come. Riding them is not hard:

 

Bullocks are multi-use animals which also can be used to plough fields. Bullocks are also essential to fertilise cows to get milk. This is why Indians rarely use horses but use bullocks frequently. In fact, bullock carts are extremely common in India and even ply regularly in smaller cities.

 

Like it or not, bullock carts are the real sustainable vehicles of the future. The bullocks are quite efficient for the work they do and serve three purpose of getting milk, ploughing fields and transportation. For faster movement, horse carts can be used. The EV and other vehicles are just desperate measures. The only EV that is pliable IMHO is the train using hydroelectricity or solar electricity.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Like it or not, bullock carts are the real sustainable vehicles of the future. 

Guess I'm old fashioned.  Because I'm sticking with ICE vehicles.  Bringing bulls into the city with cars is simply not a good idea, in my opinion.  Too much manure on the streets, for starters.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Like it or not, bullock carts are the real sustainable vehicles of the future. The bullocks are quite efficient for the work they do and serve three purpose of getting milk, ploughing fields and transportation. For faster movement, horse carts can be used. The EV and other vehicles are just desperate measures. The only EV that is pliable IMHO is the train using hydroelectricity or solar electricity.

I think your post if fantastic!  The Indian sense of humor should not be underestimated.  I think the only reason you put so much time and effort into posting it is to be able to type "bullocks" over and over again.  😉

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

8 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Guess I'm old fashioned.  Because I'm sticking with ICE vehicles.  Bringing bulls into the city with cars is simply not a good idea, in my opinion.  Too much manure on the streets, for starters.

The only thing necessary for this to work in America is for all the Indian doctors to start using them for their commute.

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Yes, cities will have difficulty in growing grass but the grass can be grown in villages and brought into cities or at least smaller towns.

Bullock carts are quite popular in India, from where I come. Riding them is not hard:

 

Bullocks are multi-use animals which also can be used to plough fields. Bullocks are also essential to fertilise cows to get milk. This is why Indians rarely use horses but use bullocks frequently. In fact, bullock carts are extremely common in India and even ply regularly in smaller cities.

 

Like it or not, bullock carts are the real sustainable vehicles of the future. The bullocks are quite efficient for the work they do and serve three purpose of getting milk, ploughing fields and transportation. For faster movement, horse carts can be used. The EV and other vehicles are just desperate measures. The only EV that is pliable IMHO is the train using hydroelectricity or solar electricity.

Is the 21st August the equivalent of April Fools day?

Lets compare the Bullock Cart to the desperate measure of a Nissan Leaf

Top Speed - Leaf (87mph) BC (5mph)

O-60mph Leaf (11 seconds) BC (only when jumping off a cliff)

Passengers Leaf (5) BC (10ish)

Range Leaf (90 miles on one charge) BC (50 miles a day)

Fuel requirements Leaf (24 kwh per full charge) BC (1 -2 acres of Grass pasture)

Tail pipe emissions Leaf (Zilch) BC (40kg of bu11sh1t)

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

9 minutes ago, NickW said:

Is the 21st August the equivalent of April Fools day?

Lets compare the Bullock Cart to the desperate measure of a Nissan Leaf

Top Speed - Leaf (87mph) BC (5mph)

O-60mph Leaf (11 seconds) BC (only when jumping off a cliff)

Passengers Leaf (5) BC (10ish)

Range Leaf (90 miles on one charge) BC (50 miles a day)

Fuel requirements Leaf (24 kwh per full charge) BC (1 -2 acres of Grass pasture)

Tail pipe emissions Leaf (Zilch) BC (40kg of bu11sh1t)

 

See, the Bullock Cart is far superior.  It's obvious.

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

2 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Guess I'm old fashioned.  Because I'm sticking with ICE vehicles.  Bringing bulls into the city with cars is simply not a good idea, in my opinion.  Too much manure on the streets, for starters.

Do you think cities themselves are sustainable without petroleum? Without petroleum, the NYC will have 10% or less of current population as the lifestyle would be impossible. It will be time to go back to villages.

1 hour ago, NickW said:

Is the 21st August the equivalent of April Fools day?

Lets compare the Bullock Cart to the desperate measure of a Nissan Leaf

Top Speed - Leaf (87mph) BC (5mph)

O-60mph Leaf (11 seconds) BC (only when jumping off a cliff)

Passengers Leaf (5) BC (10ish)

Range Leaf (90 miles on one charge) BC (50 miles a day)

Fuel requirements Leaf (24 kwh per full charge) BC (1 -2 acres of Grass pasture)

Tail pipe emissions Leaf (Zilch) BC (40kg of bu11sh1t)

 

Good luck trying to manufacture these cars with quintals of plastic, wirings, batteries and getting electricity to charge them etc. By the way, without petroleum based petrochemicals, what kind of jobs will you be doing at all?

Back to simple lives in estates. Stop living in fantasies of EV and other desperate measures. EV is as good as the idea of biofuel. These are not sustainable. This will be the life without oil as seen in year 1900:

London:

 

NYC: 

 

These were the villages of 1900:

Britain: 

France: 

USA: 

[NickW + 2,714]

2 minutes ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Do you think cities themselves are sustainable without petroleum? Without petroleum, the NYC will have 10% or less of current population as the lifestyle would be impossible. It will be time to go back to villages.

Good luck trying to manufacture these cars with quintals of plastic, wirings, batteries and getting electricity to charge them etc. By the way, without petroleum based petrochemicals, what kind of jobs will you be doing at all?

Back to simple lives in estates. Stop living in fantasies of EV and other desperate measures. EV is as good as the idea of biofuel. These are not sustainable. This will be the life without oil as seen in year 1900:

London:

 

NYC: 

 

These were the villages of 1900:

Britain: 

France: 

USA: 

You seem to be under some impression that the use of EV's spells the complete end of the oil industry. It doesn't. Infact the widespread use of EV's would reduce demand for oil and effectively extend its availability  making the scenario you present above even less likely.

In any case it is actually possible to manufacture plastics without oil (granted its more expensive) using technology invented - well before the date of those nice pictures you have posted. Pretty much the same for batteries

[Bhimsen Pachawry + 72]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

You seem to be under some impression that the use of EV's spells the complete end of the oil industry. It doesn't. Infact the widespread use of EV's would reduce demand for oil and effectively extend its availability  making the scenario you present above even less likely.

In any case it is actually possible to manufacture plastics without oil (granted its more expensive) using technology invented - well before the date of those nice pictures you have posted. Pretty much the same for batteries

Nothing will vanish completely It is just that the mass usage has to stop and that will send people back from cities. Cities survive on mass manufacturing. No mass manufacturing means no cities.

Next, EVs are only attractive in optics. Petroleum consumption is mostly in transportation of goods, not in passenger vehicles. In India, for example, 85% of petroleum is used in transport of goods, planes, petrochemicals and LPG for cooking. I see no point in saving 10% of petroleum and definitely don't see it as revolutionary. The consumption of petroleum in India is something like this:

MS refers to Motor Spirit or Gasoline, HSD is High-Speed-Diesel, ATF and SKO are kerosene. Petroleum coke and bitumen are byproducts and are for heating purpose.

The condition in USA or more developed countries may be a bit different but in developing countries, EV is almost next to impossible.

[NickW + 2,714]

16 minutes ago, Bhimsen Pachawry said:

Nothing will vanish completely It is just that the mass usage has to stop and that will send people back from cities. Cities survive on mass manufacturing. No mass manufacturing means no cities.

Next, EVs are only attractive in optics. Petroleum consumption is mostly in transportation of goods, not in passenger vehicles. In India, for example, 85% of petroleum is used in transport of goods, planes, petrochemicals and LPG for cooking. I see no point in saving 10% of petroleum and definitely don't see it as revolutionary. The consumption of petroleum in India is something like this:

MS refers to Motor Spirit or Gasoline, HSD is High-Speed-Diesel, ATF and SKO are kerosene. Petroleum coke and bitumen are byproducts and are for heating purpose.

The condition in USA or more developed countries may be a bit different but in developing countries, EV is almost next to impossible.

I would never expect developing countries to lead on new developments in cars or other transit systems.

I don't really understand your obsession against EV's (and in that context I also include PHEV).

EV's currently work reasonable well in city environments and charging networks in densely populated regions make travel feasible. PHEV are there to cover the distances if needed in any size vehicle. Both are far more efficient than conventional ICE 's and in the case of EV's they have less complex maintenance requirements.

EV and PHEV technology is already being used in Urban / Suburban bus transit systems. Similarly this technology can roll out to light and medium commercial.

I'd agree that heavy goods is unlikely but one option would be to convert these over to gas. CNG powered freight has been around for a while.

 

[Adam Varga + 123]

Why Musk doesn't ask Apple or Google to acquire Tesla which share his goals and ambitions? 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dear-elon-ask-apple-or-google-to-acquire-tesla-2018-08-21