E-car Sales Collapse

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

1 minute ago, TailingsPond said:

You think we need fossil fuel powered vehicles, when in fact, we do not.  We have the technology.

Do you know you can even run trains off electricity?

About 97% of new vehicle sales are fossil fuel.....getting from here to zero will not happen. Only a few dimwit states are even considering joining California.

https://money.com/states-banning-gas-powered-cars/#:~:text=At least nine states now,with the 2035 model year.

[TailingsPond + 497]

3 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

You sound like you are in a fog, old man, I have discussed these issues with physical scientists and they agree with me...you are clueless again.

What do they know? They didn't study economics!

I am a physical scientist.

No scientists agree with your form of denaiism

Edited August 30, 2023 by TailingsPond

[TailingsPond + 497]

Just now, Ecocharger said:

About 97% of new vehicle sales are fossil fuel.....getting from here to zero will not happen. Only a few dimwit states are even considering joining California.

https://money.com/states-banning-gas-powered-cars/#:~:text=At least nine states now,with the 2035 model year.

Just like everyone still rides horses.

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

1 minute ago, TailingsPond said:

What do they know? They didn't study economics!

I am a physical scientist.

What is your field, old man?

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

1 minute ago, TailingsPond said:

Just like everyone still rides horses.

Horsepower and horses are two different things, I guess they did not teach you that.

[TailingsPond + 497]

3 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Horsepower and horses are two different things, I guess they did not teach you that.

Huh? now you are really losing the plot.

The car is a horseless carriage that was thought to be foolish by many.  I said nothing about power output.

Luddites would stop all innovation if they could...

P.S.

EVs sports cars have far more horsepower.

Edited August 30, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

1 minute ago, TailingsPond said:

Huh? now you are really losing the plot.

The car is a horseless carriage that was thought to be foolish by many.  I said nothing about power output.

Luddites would stop all innovation if they could...

And your field, old man, your field? Give us the field ....I cannot wait for this.

[TailingsPond + 497]

5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

And your field, old man, your field? Give us the field ....I cannot wait for this.

All the better.   Remember, you are my play thing - the joke.

Dance clown!

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

16 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

All the better.   Remember, you are my play thing - the joke.

Dance clown!

So you had no field? That puts you into a nondescript category. Just as I expected.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

California is not the leader in any transition, no one seems to be following the lead they have given on EVs,

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-percent-of-us-car-sales-are-electric

"Electric vehicles account for less than 1% of the 250 million vehicles, SUVs, and light-duty trucks sold in the United States. Because only around 17 million new cars are being built each year, changing the vehicles from gas-powered to electric will be a long process, especially as far as the government is concerned."

Edited August 30, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 497]

22 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

So you had no field?

I just choose not to tell you.

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

2 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

I just choose not to tell you.

That was a wise decision by you. Judging from your posting here, a very wise move.

As for California, 

California is not the leader in any transition, no one seems to be following the lead they have given on EVs,

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-percent-of-us-car-sales-are-electric

"Electric vehicles account for less than 1% of the 250 million vehicles, SUVs, and light-duty trucks sold in the United States. Because only around 17 million new cars are being built each year, changing the vehicles from gas-powered to electric will be a long process, especially as far as the government is concerned."

Edited August 30, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 497]

Here is a "polluter pays" system. You can drive a high emission vehicle but you have to pay for your sins. Or just drive a EV, breathe cleaner air, and save money.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone

The regulations are coming luddites... adapt or suffer!

[Rob Plant + 2,648]

4 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Here is a "polluter pays" system. You can drive a high emission vehicle but you have to pay for your sins. Or just drive a EV, breathe cleaner air, and save money.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/low-emission-zone

The regulations are coming luddites... adapt or suffer!

Yeah this is the reality for Londoners.

I actually dont agree with it as most people bought ICE vehicles in good faith prior to this coming into law, so why should they then have to pay £12.50 per day extra to drive them. Those that choose to buy new ICE vehicles after this law has been passed then thats their choice to pay the charge.

Also there are many tradespeople who drive small ICE vans and now cant afford to do so, but to buy a new EV van is not affordable so they are between a rock and a hard place. The mayor of London who brought this law in is a buffoon and hated by most Londoners, its not well thought through IMO.Its just a money making scheme for London council.

Overnight workers then have to pay it twice as well!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/overnight-workers-face-paying-1250-ulez-charge-twice-if-shift-goes-past-midnight-mayor-of-london-is-warned/ar-AA1g05zA

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ulez-backlash-begins-as-vandals-target-14-cameras-in-single-road/ar-AA1fVuuQ

That being said this is the way many large cities are going and will become more widespread over time. If we want clean air to breathe and people not dying from respiratory disorders caused by pollution then its the right way to go, just needs to be done correctly and fairly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56801794

This just means as Ive been saying many many times that the regulations alone will force people to buy EV's, whether its clean air zones or a government/state manndate that only EV's are sold after 2035. Bottom line is EV's will become the majority road vehicle and EWS and ECO can bitch and moan all they like but its happenning so get used to it or start a revoltution!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

7 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Yeah this is the reality for Londoners.

I actually dont agree with it as most people bought ICE vehicles in good faith prior to this coming into law, so why should they then have to pay £12.50 per day extra to drive them. Those that choose to buy new ICE vehicles after this law has been passed then thats their choice to pay the charge.

Also there are many tradespeople who drive small ICE vans and now cant afford to do so, but to buy a new EV van is not affordable so they are between a rock and a hard place. The mayor of London who brought this law in is a buffoon and hated by most Londoners, its not well thought through IMO.Its just a money making scheme for London council.

Overnight workers then have to pay it twice as well!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/overnight-workers-face-paying-1250-ulez-charge-twice-if-shift-goes-past-midnight-mayor-of-london-is-warned/ar-AA1g05zA

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ulez-backlash-begins-as-vandals-target-14-cameras-in-single-road/ar-AA1fVuuQ

That being said this is the way many large cities are going and will become more widespread over time. If we want clean air to breathe and people not dying from respiratory disorders caused by pollution then its the right way to go, just needs to be done correctly and fairly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56801794

This just means as Ive been saying many many times that the regulations alone will force people to buy EV's, whether its clean air zones or a government/state manndate that only EV's are sold after 2035. Bottom line is EV's will become the majority road vehicle and EWS and ECO can bitch and moan all they like but its happenning so get used to it or start a revoltution!

Agree that this is just a money making scheme for the government, there is no rational climate objective here.

Currently,  California is not the leader in any transition, no one seems to be following the lead they have given on EVs, the supposed transition is dead in the water.

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-percent-of-us-car-sales-are-electric

"Electric vehicles account for less than 1% of the 250 million vehicles, SUVs, and light-duty trucks sold in the United States. Because only around 17 million new cars are being built each year, changing the vehicles from gas-powered to electric will be a long process, especially as far as the government is concerned."

Edited August 31, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 497]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Agree that this is just a money making scheme for the government, there is no rational climate objective here.

This is not a climate issue, it is air quality.  You often fall into this idea that the only tailpipe emission people are concerned about is CO2.

Do not say modern engines and catalytic converters (with those expensive rare elements) make the exhaust clean as that easily disproved by evidence. Heck, you can detect high air pollution levels just by observing hospital admission rates for respiratory and cardiac problems.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24706041/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30779516/

While I do not know where the money is going in this case, many "polluter pays" systems have none of the collected money going into government general revenue, It is given to environmental restoration and preservation projects.  Anyone can apply for the funding.

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/environmental-funding/programs/environmental-damages-fund.html

Edited August 31, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,383]

23 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

This is not a climate issue, it is air quality.  You often fall into this idea that the only tailpipe emission people are concerned about is CO2.

Do not say modern engines and catalytic converters (with those expensive rare elements) make the exhaust clean as that easily disproved by evidence. Heck, you can detect high air pollution levels just by observing hospital admission rates for respiratory and cardiac problems.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24706041/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30779516/

While I do not know where the money is going in this case, many "polluter pays" systems have none of the collected money going into government general revenue, It is given to environmental restoration and preservation projects.  Anyone can apply for the funding.

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/environmental-funding/programs/environmental-damages-fund.html

Nonsense, fossil fuel car emissions are trending down toward zero and EVs have their own toxic emissions issues.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

"In the case of electricity, most electric power plants produce emissions, and there are additional emissions associated with the extraction, processing, and distribution of the primary energy sources they use for electricity production."

[TailingsPond + 497]

8 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Nonsense, fossil fuel car emissions are trending down toward zero

So you are willing to breathe exhaust?  I doubt it because you know it's nowhere near zero.

Secondly as cars age their emissions go up not down.  True, new cars with better technology are getting better but only because of regulations (the same type of regulations you think never pass).

The fossil vehicles will continue to be squeezed to get better air emissions (not just CO2) until they become totally banned or reduced to tiny, gutless engines.

When all the newer cars are EV, and the older ones can no longer pass air standard tests, fossil cars are effectively eliminated.  If you can't register your fossil vehicle it becomes a useless museum piece.

You of course would have no problem with testing exhaust because they they run so clean.  Nothing to fear from the test.

 

[turbguy + 1,413]

11 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

"In the case of electricity, most electric power plants produce emissions, and there are additional emissions associated with the extraction, processing, and distribution of the primary energy sources they use for electricity production."

ALL electric power plants emit SOMETHING.  Renewable sources have ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE less emissions per MWh.

Don't get me started on the emissions directly attributable to extraction, refining and transport of petroleum product.

Edited September 2, 2023 by turbguy

[jonathb + 7]

Today (labour day) EV sales Europe up 61% YOY.

[Ron Wagner + 649]

Big deal. What is the percentage of ICE vehicles on the road in Europe and how what percentage are ICE trucks and buses. Meanwhile Europeans are paying twice as much for electricity as Americans. 

[turbguy + 1,413]

1 hour ago, Ron Wagner said:

Big deal. What is the percentage of ICE vehicles on the road in Europe and how what percentage are ICE trucks and buses. Meanwhile Europeans are paying twice as much for electricity as Americans. 

The percentage of ICE vehicles on the road in Europe vs EVs is about 87% ICE vehicles and 13% EVs as of 2023, and EV;s will slowly increase.

The source of this information is the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA). The ACEA is an association of car manufacturers in Europe. They release annual reports on the state of the European car market.

The ACEA's 2023 report shows that there were 253.1 million passenger cars registered in Europe at the end of 2022. Of these, 216.9 million were ICE vehicles and 36.2 million were EVs.

I see Tesla's every day in Wyoming.

And how much more do European's pay for "petrol"??

Edited September 5, 2023 by turbguy

[Rob Plant + 2,648]

6 hours ago, turbguy said:

And how much more do European's pay for "petrol"??

Currently we pay the equivalent of $8.56/gallon

What is it in the US?

[jonathb + 7]

Re improvements in ICE "hygiene" vs ongoing huge migration from ICE to EVs..

The issue is, rate of improvement in cost-effectiveness.

The news tecs that clean up ICEs make an incremental improvement, but are expensive.

Battery tec seems to follow Moore's law. Every 3 or 4 years, an order of magnitude improvement. For example, 3 years ago, an NCM battery had a cycle-life of 1000 or so. Now, an equivalent LFP battery does 5000+ at under half the price. And, the battery progress isn't stopping here. In 3 years, the sodium tec that is now coming into prod in China will be everywhere: no lithium, no exotic elements, minimally invasive mining, minimal pollution, cheap and EZ everything. This will be cleaner than super-duper tec in ICEs, but at a fraction of the cost.

The result is unavoidable - just like as commented above, how automobiles took ten years or so to replace horse-n-buggies.

 

[Jeroen Goudswaard + 57]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:18 AM, Rob Plant said:

Yeah this is the reality for Londoners.

I actually dont agree with it as most people bought ICE vehicles in good faith prior to this coming into law, so why should they then have to pay £12.50 per day extra to drive them. Those that choose to buy new ICE vehicles after this law has been passed then thats their choice to pay the charge.

Also there are many tradespeople who drive small ICE vans and now cant afford to do so, but to buy a new EV van is not affordable so they are between a rock and a hard place. The mayor of London who brought this law in is a buffoon and hated by most Londoners, its not well thought through IMO.Its just a money making scheme for London council.

Overnight workers then have to pay it twice as well!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/overnight-workers-face-paying-1250-ulez-charge-twice-if-shift-goes-past-midnight-mayor-of-london-is-warned/ar-AA1g05zA

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/ulez-backlash-begins-as-vandals-target-14-cameras-in-single-road/ar-AA1fVuuQ

That being said this is the way many large cities are going and will become more widespread over time. If we want clean air to breathe and people not dying from respiratory disorders caused by pollution then its the right way to go, just needs to be done correctly and fairly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56801794

This just means as Ive been saying many many times that the regulations alone will force people to buy EV's, whether its clean air zones or a government/state manndate that only EV's are sold after 2035. Bottom line is EV's will become the majority road vehicle and EWS and ECO can bitch and moan all they like but its happenning so get used to it or start a revoltution!

London is letting drivers of cars over 18 years(!) pay for access to London. In many places in Europe, you cannot even enter cities with cars that old. NY/California/Rhode Island/Vermont are following suit.