notsonice + 1,255 DM June 18 InsideEVs Stellantis Outwits EU Tariffs, Starts Production Of Cheap Chinese EV In Poland 5 hours ago  ...... Stellantis, being the giant conglomerate that it is, found a way of circumventing the hiked duties on imported EVs that are set to go into effect in just two weeks: build a Chinese EV on European soil.  1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 19 7 hours ago, Ron Wagner said: Americans are big car people overall. I think pickups are somewhat of a macho male thing, but I do love my big van because people can't steal my stuff on long trips with lots of belongings or to carry passengers. I live in an agricultural area but I think most farmers use an old truck on the farm and drive around in a newer truck and write it off as a farm expense. Maybe someone could correct me on that. The little SUV's allow people to avoid the minivan driver stigma but I stick with the Dodge Chrysler minivans because they are the only company that has lay flat seats all the way behind the two front seats. My Nissan van is bigger than about any van aside from the extra long Mercedes. My little three banger Mitsubishi will not be beat price wise until a company starts selling Chinese cars nationwide, or close too it. Maybe another Domestic or foreign brand would like to sell Mexican assembled Chinese cars under their own nameplate. I like a free market. I remember when people had very few pairs of shoes because they were made in New England and cost far more. There was very little competition for many products. Competition benefits the consumer. My main concern is that we do not deal with other countries that do not share our values in the way they treat their own population or other countries. That needs to be understood by China. You cannot have a free market with slave nations. You cannot have a free market with nations which have vast differences in regulations Must have tariffs otherwise all manufacutring will go to lowest common denominator every time and all POWER/MONEY will go to a select few monopolies. ... Hrmm why is USA become less even..oh right, see above. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 19 (edited) You cannot have a "free market" at all, since that must avoid regulating to deter common business practices in a real free market, such as those involved in the recreational chemical trade. Those business practices include (but are not limited to) pay-offs to "regulators", kidnapping, and murder. Edited June 19 by turbguy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 19 10 hours ago, turbguy said: You cannot have a "free market" at all, since that must avoid regulating to deter common business practices in a real free market, such as those involved in the recreational chemical trade. Those business practices include (but are not limited to) pay-offs to "regulators", kidnapping, and murder. Well no, no they don't as the recreational chemical trade only does those things because it is Illegal to begin with just as alcohol sales were ruled by the cartels of the day during prohibition. Legalize it and let people decide to ruin their lives or not. Not the governments job. And the drug dealing is only a problem because gone soft on the murderers selling the stuff... Just kill them outright and it disappears. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 19 (edited) 16 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Well no, no they don't as the recreational chemical trade only does those things because it is Illegal to begin with just as alcohol sales were ruled by the cartels of the day during prohibition. Legalize it and let people decide to ruin their lives or not. Not the governments job. And the drug dealing is only a problem because gone soft on the murderers selling the stuff... Just kill them outright and it disappears. What makes any business practice illegal, except for some type of "regulation"? The 10 commandments are a good foundation. To bad, so many people ignore them in business, and even in their personal lives. Edited June 19 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 19 51 minutes ago, turbguy said: What makes any business practice illegal, except for some type of "regulation"? The 10 commandments are a good foundation. To bad, so many people ignore them in business, and even in their personal lives. Got nothing to do with the NATIonS part of what I wrote, but hey, you want to look at inside a nation. Ok Simple, when businesses get too old or big, break them up. Frankly, I would not allow any business over 70 years without being broken up. From food distribution to Google, when they get too big/powerful, break them up. If over 50 years old, no you may not buy out or merge with another company. Would stop a HUGE portion of the corruption/empire building dead in its tracks. Solve it? Never. Help? Yes. Humanity will always try to aggrandize power/money in a never ending cycle, be it in business or in a nation/empire. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 19 (edited) 2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Got nothing to do with the NATIonS part of what I wrote, but hey, you want to look at inside a nation. Ok Simple, when businesses get too old or big, break them up. Frankly, I would not allow any business over 70 years without being broken up. From food distribution to Google, when they get too big/powerful, break them up. If over 50 years old, no you may not buy out or merge with another company. Would stop a HUGE portion of the corruption/empire building dead in its tracks. Solve it? Never. Help? Yes. Humanity will always try to aggrandize power/money in a never ending cycle, be it in business or in a nation/empire. Great, just add in some more "regulations" to the free market everyone talks about, until it hits them in the pocketbook. Then the talking takes a sharp curve in the opposite direction. Yeah, that's certainly moving forward to "free markets". Markets operate between nations, within nations, within cities, and within families. Only two entities are required to establish a market. There would be a considerable amount of "discussion" from some long-standing financial "institutions" that might have something to say about being "broken up". When a government gets "too old", maybe THEY should be broken up instead. The again, THEY might have an issue with such a development.    Edited June 19 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 19  the falling costs of batteries..............half of what they cost last year and still dropping ICE clunkers are doomed Cash for clunkers anyone????? https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/17/battery-price-war-catl-byd-costs-down/  Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further  Phate Zhang Jan 17, 2024 9:43 GMT+8  Currently, VDA-sized LFP cells are selling for less than RMB 0.5/Wh. Leapmotor's vice president Cao Li recently said in an interview that the company's procurement cost for LFP cells has dropped to RMB 0.4/Wh, the report said.  ($1 = RMB 7.1911)  newest price is 5.56 cents per WH or $55.60 KWH  so a hybrid car with 40 miles in range (12.5 KWH).........has a battery pack with the cells costing $700  and a BEV with a 90 KWH battery (300 mile range) has a battery pack with the cells costing $5000  and an average EV has a battery pack of ??? Typically Electric car batteries measure in kWh with the size of the battery being the biggest determinent of EV range. Hybrids tend to have between 10-24kW of range while many pure EV's can range from 24kW-100kWh of battery capacity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 19 2 hours ago, turbguy said: Great, just add in some more "regulations" to the free market everyone talks about, until it hits them in the pocketbook. Then the talking takes a sharp curve in the opposite direction. Yeah, that's certainly moving forward to "free markets". Markets operate between nations, within nations, within cities, and within families. Only two entities are required to establish a market. There would be a considerable amount of "discussion" from some long-standing financial "institutions" that might have something to say about being "broken up". When a government gets "too old", maybe THEY should be broken up instead. The again, THEY might have an issue with such a development.    Welcome to reality. Full Socialist or Full Capitalist sucks.  Only thing you can try to regulate is corruption be it government based(Socialist) or business based(Capitalist). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 19 29 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Welcome to reality. Full Socialist or Full Capitalist sucks.  Only thing you can try to regulate is corruption be it government based(Socialist) or business based(Capitalist). First, you gotta define "corruption". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 19 6 minutes ago, turbguy said: First, you gotta define "corruption". AH, coooochie kooo babbbbbyyyyy boo boo need me to change urrrr diaper? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 20 (edited) 49 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: AH, coooochie kooo babbbbbyyyyy boo boo need me to change urrrr diaper? That's an answer? Try this one: Bribery: The offering, promising, or giving of something of value (money, gifts, favors) to influence the action of a public official or business associate in an improper way. Bribery can distort decision-making processes and lead to unfair advantages. Embezzlement: This is the stealing or misappropriation of funds or property entrusted to someone. In government, this could involve officials diverting public funds for personal gain. In business, it could involve employees stealing money from the company. Nepotism: The favoring of family members or close associates for jobs, promotions, or contracts regardless of their qualifications. It creates an unfair advantage for those connected to powerful figures and undermines meritocratic principles. Extortion: Obtaining something (especially money), by threats or violence. In a business context, this could involve a company threatening to withhold supplies or services unless they are paid an exorbitant fee. In government, it could involve officials demanding bribes under threat of punishment. Fraud: Deception for personal gain, often through misrepresentation of facts. It can take many forms, such as creating fake documents, manipulating financial statements, or using shell companies to hide illegal "stuff". Cronyism: The awarding of contracts (or favors) to friends or associates regardless of their qualifications. It's similar to nepotism but extends beyond family members to a wider circle of relationships. Patronage: This is the exchange of favors or support between powerful people and those who depend on them. It can create a system of obligation and loyalty that can distort decision-making processes. Trading in Influence: Using one's position or connections to improperly influence decisions in exchange for personal gain. This can be done by lobbying for favorable policies or regulations or by using insider information to make profitable investments. Conflicts of Interest: This arises when someone has a personal interest that could influence their professional judgment. This could involve a government official having ownership in a company they are supposed to regulate, or a business executive profiting from a deal with a relative's company. Hmmm.. sounds somewhat like Congress? ..and there's the gray areas. The line between "acceptable behavior" and corruption can sometimes be, um, "blurry". This make's it difficult to detect, much less prosecute. I'll say this, corruption has a devastating impact on a country's economy and social development.  It can also undermine public trust in institutions and lead to political instability. While the 10 Commandments do not address corruption directly, #8 clearly speaks against lying and deceit. False testimony can be a tool used in corrupt practices to frame someone or gain an unfair advantage. #10 speaks against greed and envy, which can be motivating factors in corruption. People can be driven to corrupt practices to acquire what someone else has.  Edited June 20 by turbguy 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 20 (edited) On 6/19/2024 at 6:14 PM, notsonice said:  the falling costs of batteries..............half of what they cost last year and still dropping ICE clunkers are doomed Cash for clunkers anyone????? https://cnevpost.com/2024/01/17/battery-price-war-catl-byd-costs-down/  Battery price war: CATL, BYD pushing battery costs down further  Phate Zhang Jan 17, 2024 9:43 GMT+8  Currently, VDA-sized LFP cells are selling for less than RMB 0.5/Wh. Leapmotor's vice president Cao Li recently said in an interview that the company's procurement cost for LFP cells has dropped to RMB 0.4/Wh, the report said.  ($1 = RMB 7.1911)  newest price is 5.56 cents per WH or $55.60 KWH  so a hybrid car with 40 miles in range (12.5 KWH).........has a battery pack with the cells costing $700  and a BEV with a 90 KWH battery (300 mile range) has a battery pack with the cells costing $5000  and an average EV has a battery pack of ??? Typically Electric car batteries measure in kWh with the size of the battery being the biggest determinent of EV range. Hybrids tend to have between 10-24kW of range while many pure EV's can range from 24kW-100kWh of battery capacity. EVs are cratering in the second hand market, no one wants those clunkers after the first use. "The value of a used Tesla fell by more than $1,000 on average in the first half of January" EVs are losing market share to fossil fuel cars in Europe and America...the game is up. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13433765/ev-driven-gas-cars-charging-stations.html "Electric vehicles cost 63.6 percent more for every 1,000 miles driven per year compared to gasoline cars." "The average cost of an electric car for every 1,000 miles driven per year is $5,108 - compared to $3,056 for a hybrid car, $3,123 for a gasoline car and $4,351 for a plug in hybrid." Governments which try to force the EV agenda are in political trouble. Times have changed indeed. The governments which have bought the foolish lines about climate change deserve to be turfed out. Edited June 20 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 20 16 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: EVs are cratering in the second hand market, no one wants those clunkers after the first use. "The value of a used Tesla fell by more than $1,000 on average in the first half of January" EVs are losing market share to fossil fuel cars in Europe and America...the game is up. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13433765/ev-driven-gas-cars-charging-stations.html "Electric vehicles cost 63.6 percent more for every 1,000 miles driven per year compared to gasoline cars." "The average cost of an electric car for every 1,000 miles driven per year is $5,108 - compared to $3,056 for a hybrid car, $3,123 for a gasoline car and $4,351 for a plug in hybrid." Governments which try to force the EV agenda are in political trouble. Times have changed indeed. The governments which have bought the foolish lines about climate change deserve to be turfed out.   you should crack open your window on your clunker Gasoline vapors are affecting you and you ability to post facts.....try to keep up with the times   EVs are losing market share to fossil fuel cars in Europe and America????????  you should look at what is happening before you try to BS yourself InsideEVs U.S. EV Registrations Jumped In April 2024. But Tesla Is Sinking April turned out to be one of the best months ever for all-electric car sales in the United States, with a six-digit number of first... . 4 hours ago Cox Automotive Inc. A Record 1.2 Million EVs Were Sold in the U.S. in 2023, According to Estimates from Kelley Blue Book A record 1.2 million U.S. vehicle buyers chose to go electric last year, according to estimates from Kelley Blue Book, a Cox Automotive... . Jan 9, 2024 The Korea Herald Hyundai to start Georgia EV plant, unlocking IRA benefits Hyundai Motor Group Metaplant America, Hyundai Motor Group's new electric vehicle plant in Georgia, will begin production later this year,... . 17 hours ago Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,007 GE June 21 On 6/19/2024 at 9:36 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said: Well no, no they don't as the recreational chemical trade only does those things because it is Illegal to begin with just as alcohol sales were ruled by the cartels of the day during prohibition. Legalize it and let people decide to ruin their lives or not. Not the governments job. And the drug dealing is only a problem because gone soft on the murderers selling the stuff... Just kill them outright and it disappears. Will you vote in such a way as to promote legalization? How about abortion? Should that be legal? Some of your comments seem libertarian but you also think government should have the right to kill. Why don't we just legalize murder? "Defending yourself is not the governments job." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 21 2 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Will you vote in such a way as to promote legalization? How about abortion? Should that be legal? Some of your comments seem libertarian but you also think government should have the right to kill. Why don't we just legalize murder? "Defending yourself is not the governments job." There is no perfect solution. Though, most over think things. Make this simple: Either Legalize it, but if they break into my house, I get to kill them with zero repercussions. None of this, I get arrested garbage, or if they are running away and I plug them in the back I get arrested garbage. OR, Kill the drug dealers(not put in jail). We all know who they are. I know a couple drug dealers even though I have never bought any. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,543 June 21 (edited) 16 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: There is no perfect solution. Though, most over think things. Make this simple: Either Legalize it, but if they break into my house, I get to kill them with zero repercussions. None of this, I get arrested garbage, or if they are running away and I plug them in the back I get arrested garbage. OR, Kill the drug dealers(not put in jail). We all know who they are. I know a couple drug dealers even though I have never bought any. Simple. #6, "Thou shalt not kill". Edited June 21 by turbguy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 709 June 24 On 6/19/2024 at 10:36 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said: Well no, no they don't as the recreational chemical trade only does those things because it is Illegal to begin with just as alcohol sales were ruled by the cartels of the day during prohibition. Legalize it and let people decide to ruin their lives or not. Not the governments job. And the drug dealing is only a problem because gone soft on the murderers selling the stuff... Just kill them outright and it disappears. People often need to be protected from themselves and their own ignorance. Fentanyl is a perfect example. It is fatal in minute amounts yet it has been allowed to flood our country. Especially since the current administration has been in charge. The fentanyl crisis is so profound that it has lowered the life expectancy of the entire nation. That is very noticeable since it mainly kills young to middle aged drug users. Fentanyl is also used to adulterate other drugs since it is so inexpensive. $1 to $5 per pill on the street. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 709 June 24 On 6/18/2024 at 4:30 PM, notsonice said: Maybe another Domestic or foreign brand would like to sell Mexican assembled Chinese cars under their own nameplate...????? My bet is one of the big three will lockup with BYD in the US........one way to take over a market (or keep what you have), buy into your competition and joint venture.......as I do not see any of the Big 3 competing on the low end EVs without partnering with made in Mexico and China battery tech  and the other quasi US domestic makers (VW, Toyota etc)...........the market is wide open for a No tariff Made (assembled) in the USA EV. The Quasi automakers all will have to find a path forward.....as you can bet EVs in the US will get much cheaper...just who will conquer the low end market (Tesla......hmmmmm overpriced) with battery prices crashing and batteries getting better the result is cheaper EVs be it mini cars, sedans , SUVs or light pickups  hard to stop innovation/tech advancements  no matter how hard a country tries to block market access  as for China......their one party way......will it sure is not working in the real estate business these days nor in stemming the decline in population...China needs to have an open border policy with all the poor countries of the world otherwise it is doomed to be a retirement state.......Lots of people in dire poverty around the globe and lots of new empty apartments in China........somebody has to assemble all of the China Trinkets ,cheap EVs and install the billions upon billiions of solar panels (Ex top pay coal miners do not make good assembly line workers....pay sucks) Yes, China is in much worse economic condition than most Americans know. This should enable our leaders to get concessions for allowing them to meet the needs Americans have for lower priced cars. We need a stable China that understand it needs to get along with the West to get their business. The biggest obstacle is getting labor to agree to some kind of a reasonable plan. The leader of the auto manufacturing union ( United Auto Workers ?) is going to be a speaker at the Republican Convention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 24 22 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said: Yes, China is in much worse economic condition than most Americans know. This should enable our leaders to get concessions for allowing them to meet the needs Americans have for lower priced cars. We need a stable China that understand it needs to get along with the West to get their business. The biggest obstacle is getting labor to agree to some kind of a reasonable plan. The leader of the auto manufacturing union ( United Auto Workers ?) is going to be a speaker at the Republican Convention. it is inevitable that cheap, under $15,000 Compact EVs will be on the market in the US ...and AWD SUV EVs for under $35,000 and they will compete head on to the existing ICE vehicles and the way BYD is heading , they will be cheaper than their counterpart ICE vehicles......  less parts ....according to Tesla, their drivetrain only has about 17 moving parts compared to the 200 or so in a typical drivetrain for an internal combustion engine (ICE)> Vehicle simplicity coupled with low purchase/operating cost will win as it now is happening in China The reason that EVs in China are now 50 percent of the market is price price price...Two years from now in China.......my bet 90 percent EVS/plugins how does the US get there???? It is not unreasonable where BYD will set up shop in the US with or without union labor........All they have to do is start a business in the US , issue stock on the NYSE, do a public offering and issue stock to its existing shareholders in exchange for funding... Number one problem in the US......Tesla is too expensive and their cyber truck????????????? People like the style of existing ICE pickup trucks...not a stretch to have low priced pickups (as once existed in the US) with an battery pack/electric motor  Rome was not built in a day  The US will welcome inexpensive EVs and Plug in hybrids just so they are made in America .............Clunkers are doomed as for China's economy...............too many empty apartments .....not enough people to fill them  .the Answer in China....allow for mass immigration from ha ha ha India and the poor countries of the world 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 24 On 6/20/2024 at 6:34 PM, notsonice said:   you should crack open your window on your clunker Gasoline vapors are affecting you and you ability to post facts.....try to keep up with the times   EVs are losing market share to fossil fuel cars in Europe and America????????  you should look at what is happening before you try to BS yourself InsideEVs U.S. EV Registrations Jumped In April 2024. But Tesla Is Sinking April turned out to be one of the best months ever for all-electric car sales in the United States, with a six-digit number of first... . 4 hours ago Cox Automotive Inc. A Record 1.2 Million EVs Were Sold in the U.S. in 2023, According to Estimates from Kelley Blue Book A record 1.2 million U.S. vehicle buyers chose to go electric last year, according to estimates from Kelley Blue Book, a Cox Automotive... . Jan 9, 2024 The Korea Herald Hyundai to start Georgia EV plant, unlocking IRA benefits Hyundai Motor Group Metaplant America, Hyundai Motor Group's new electric vehicle plant in Georgia, will begin production later this year,... . 17 hours ago You dragged those year-old numbers out before and I called you on them. I guess you slept right through that. (No surprise.) Look at what is happening right now, EVs are in trouble and losing market share to fossil fuel cars. The game is up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,474 DL June 24 25 minutes ago, notsonice said: it is inevitable that cheap, under $15,000 Compact EVs will be on the market in the US ...and AWD SUV EVs for under $35,000 and they will compete head on to the existing ICE vehicles and the way BYD is heading , they will be cheaper than their counterpart ICE vehicles......  less parts ....according to Tesla, their drivetrain only has about 17 moving parts compared to the 200 or so in a typical drivetrain for an internal combustion engine (ICE)> Vehicle simplicity coupled with low purchase/operating cost will win as it now is happening in China The reason that EVs in China are now 50 percent of the market is price price price...Two years from now in China.......my bet 90 percent EVS/plugins how does the US get there???? It is not unreasonable where BYD will set up shop in the US with or without union labor........All they have to do is start a business in the US , issue stock on the NYSE, do a public offering and issue stock to its existing shareholders in exchange for funding... Number one problem in the US......Tesla is too expensive and their cyber truck????????????? People like the style of existing ICE pickup trucks...not a stretch to have low priced pickups (as once existed in the US) with an battery pack/electric motor  Rome was not built in a day  The US will welcome inexpensive EVs and Plug in hybrids just so they are made in America .............Clunkers are doomed as for China's economy...............too many empty apartments .....not enough people to fill them  .the Answer in China....allow for mass immigration from ha ha ha India and the poor countries of the world Americans have no interest in $10,000 go-karts, that has been tried before and it failed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 24 (edited) On 6/20/2024 at 8:40 PM, turbguy said: Simple. #6, "Thou shalt not kill". IN defense is perfectly OK, and in this world, we have to kill. Pretending otherwise destroys society. There is the ideal, and then there is reality full of a lot of Grey Garbage we have to take out. Can't be a white knight all the time. Edited June 24 by footeab@yahoo.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 June 24 3 hours ago, Ron Wagner said: People often need to be protected from themselves and their own ignorance. Fentanyl is a perfect example. It is fatal in minute amounts yet it has been allowed to flood our country. Especially since the current administration has been in charge. The fentanyl crisis is so profound that it has lowered the life expectancy of the entire nation. That is very noticeable since it mainly kills young to middle aged drug users. Fentanyl is also used to adulterate other drugs since it is so inexpensive. $1 to $5 per pill on the street. ERGO why you kill drug dealers. In this case people knowingly putting Fentanyl in the drugs. If legalized they have to now meet standards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM June 24 (edited) 6 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Americans have no interest in $10,000 go-karts, that has been tried before and it failed. Americans have no interest in $10,000 go-karts?????? Yes they do , price matters remember when cheap Japanese cars in the 70s and 80s were considered go-karts???? and the failure ???? it decimated the Big 3's auto lineup of heavy , low MPG clunkers, crappy cars. Japanese took over the low end car market..........and the Big 3???? two of them went bankrupt and required massive bailouts.... The big 3 thought no one wanted one of those Japanese, cheap , go karts Yep, what failed was those who clung onto Clunkers and outdated tech......  nothing has changed since the 70's as fuel-conscious urban consumers will drive the US EV market to evolve to one with cheap, $10,000, compact cars (go-karts as you call them). Compared to your clunkers, the cost to fuel up with electricity is one third the cost . China's market today, that is now dominated by cheap EVs, is not a phenomena that only will happen in China.  The rapid expansion of the Japanese auto industry in the post-war period challenged American automakers on two fronts: design and cost. Japanese cars were smaller and cheaper, designed better for the fuel-conscious urban consumers who began to make up a larger and larger share of the American market.  The Keiretsu Advantage: How Japanese Automakers ... Todays US new car market for urban commuters???? dominated by Toyota and their go-karts Edited June 24 by notsonice 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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