Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 12, 2023 On 5/11/2023 at 1:26 AM, markslawson said: We have seen the mass use of wind generators which are of more use, but are now running into real community opposition to those generators spreading everywhere. Its time to give these calculations away and admit the so called energy transition is a fiasco. Thanks for the discussion but leave it with you. British wind power overtakes gas for the first time in Q1 2023 - report https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/british-wind-power-overtakes-gas-first-time-q1-2023-report-2023-05-10/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65557469 Fiasco?? 42% of powergen in the UK came from renewables in the first qtr of 2023 compared to 33% from FF. Mark you make statements but again dont back them up with up to date info. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Rob Plant said: British wind power overtakes gas for the first time in Q1 2023 - report https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/british-wind-power-overtakes-gas-first-time-q1-2023-report-2023-05-10/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65557469 Fiasco?? 42% of powergen in the UK came from renewables in the first qtr of 2023 compared to 33% from FF. Mark you make statements but again dont back them up with up to date info. Welcome to the alternate reality world of Mark Lawson.... If you look at this site you can see all sort of data for European countries in real time, last 24 hrs, 30 days, 12 months and 5 years. Examples from wind and solar over the last 12 months these countries got the followng % from these sources Germany 40% Spain 44% Uk 30% Netherlands 44% France 14% Poland 20% Electricity Maps | Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, NickW said: Welcome to the alternate reality world of Mark Lawson.... If you look at this site you can see all sort of data for European countries in real time, last 24 hrs, 30 days, 12 months and 5 years. Examples from wind and solar over the last 12 months these countries got the followng % from these sources Germany 40% Spain 44% Uk 30% Netherlands 44% France 14% Poland 20% Electricity Maps | Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption What a fiasco! 🤣 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,061 ML May 13, 2023 16 hours ago, Rob Plant said: British wind power overtakes gas for the first time in Q1 2023 - report https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/british-wind-power-overtakes-gas-first-time-q1-2023-report-2023-05-10/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-65557469 Fiasco?? 42% of powergen in the UK came from renewables in the first qtr of 2023 compared to 33% from FF. Mark you make statements but again dont back them up with up to date info. As opposed to backing them up with dodgy, meaningless statistics.. go back and look at the news from the UK. The switch to renewables is causing HUGE problems, in the UK in particular. Power bills are through the roof and the ruling Tory party is in serious political difficulty but is still refusing to dump much of the renewables agenda. Now its not a matter of me proving, yet again, the blinding obvious in throw away remarks but it is a matter of you going and taking steps to acquaint yourself with the very basics of the debate. As part of your reading look up the problem of wind droughts. The crack about backing up points only means that you're still sore about losing the earlier arguments. Sure the UK had been building wind generators, and sure the seasonal variations mean that wind production exceeds gas - because gas is used to back up wind, not wind to back up gas. As I said, its best if you find more about the debate, in particular the problems in the UK. Leave it with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 15, 2023 (edited) On 5/13/2023 at 2:13 AM, markslawson said: As opposed to backing them up with dodgy, meaningless statistics.. go back and look at the news from the UK. The switch to renewables is causing HUGE problems, in the UK in particular. Power bills are through the roof and the ruling Tory party is in serious political difficulty but is still refusing to dump much of the renewables agenda. Now its not a matter of me proving, yet again, the blinding obvious in throw away remarks but it is a matter of you going and taking steps to acquaint yourself with the very basics of the debate. As part of your reading look up the problem of wind droughts. The crack about backing up points only means that you're still sore about losing the earlier arguments. Sure the UK had been building wind generators, and sure the seasonal variations mean that wind production exceeds gas - because gas is used to back up wind, not wind to back up gas. As I said, its best if you find more about the debate, in particular the problems in the UK. Leave it with you. Mark I'm not "sore" about anything and the fact that I did back up all my points means that if there was a loser it was certainly yourself as you could not, and still cant. Others on this site have said you live in an "alternate universe", I wouldnt go that far but you do have some whacky ideas. Youre way off with why the energy bills in the UK are so high, its all to do with gas prices and nothing to do with renewables again youre barking up the wrong tree and embarrassing yourself. Fortunately the massive cut in gas prices is finally being seen by the household consumer and are set to go back to normal. As far as wind droughts are concerned I would agree in many parts of the world, but the UK not so much as we have this little thing called the gulf stream. Please read up on it! The UK arent wholly reliant on wind and have an extremely diverse mix of energy projects, including solar, nuclear (both fission and fusion), pumped storage, hydrogen etc etc. The UK also has 8 interconnectors with other countries for peaks in demand. I suggest some reading on these projects may help you to understand the real situation. One final point the Tory government is irrelevant to new powergen projects as when Labour win the next election they will continue with all of them and if anything ramp them up. Edited May 15, 2023 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 On 5/13/2023 at 2:13 AM, markslawson said: As opposed to backing them up with dodgy, meaningless statistics.. go back and look at the news from the UK. The switch to renewables is causing HUGE problems, in the UK in particular. Power bills are through the roof and the ruling Tory party is in serious political difficulty but is still refusing to dump much of the renewables agenda. Now its not a matter of me proving, yet again, the blinding obvious in throw away remarks but it is a matter of you going and taking steps to acquaint yourself with the very basics of the debate. As part of your reading look up the problem of wind droughts. The crack about backing up points only means that you're still sore about losing the earlier arguments. Sure the UK had been building wind generators, and sure the seasonal variations mean that wind production exceeds gas - because gas is used to back up wind, not wind to back up gas. As I said, its best if you find more about the debate, in particular the problems in the UK. Leave it with you. No its not. I live in the UK. The high cost of electricity has been caused by gas prices hitting the roof. If anything wind has helped moderate that increase. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP May 15, 2023 11 minutes ago, NickW said: No its not. I live in the UK. The high cost of electricity has been caused by gas prices hitting the roof. If anything wind has helped moderate that increase. Why do people jump to the wrong conclusion about the sky high energy costs in the UK?? A little research and a bit of common sense would tell you it was NG and that it is a temporary situation. Unfortunately Mark already has his mind made up without bothering to fact check what he says. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 17 minutes ago, Rob Plant said: Why do people jump to the wrong conclusion about the sky high energy costs in the UK?? A little research and a bit of common sense would tell you it was NG and that it is a temporary situation. Unfortunately Mark already has his mind made up without bothering to fact check what he says. Windy day normally means lower wholesale electricity costs because this significantly moderates gas demand. Electricity Data Summary | BMRS (bmreports.com) Whole sale prices fluctuating between 6.4p/kwh and 12.8p/kwh because the Uk only needed to use 6-7GW of gas plant today. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 21 minutes ago, Rob Plant said: Why do people jump to the wrong conclusion about the sky high energy costs in the UK?? A little research and a bit of common sense would tell you it was NG and that it is a temporary situation. Unfortunately Mark already has his mind made up without bothering to fact check what he says. Mark writes for a specific audience who ask no questions if they like what they are hearing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Mark I'm not "sore" about anything and the fact that I did back up all my points means that if there was a loser it was certainly yourself as you could not, and still cant. Others on this site have said you live in an "alternate universe", I wouldnt go that far but you do have some whacky ideas. Youre way off with why the energy bills in the UK are so high, its all to do with gas prices and nothing to do with renewables again youre barking up the wrong tree and embarrassing yourself. Fortunately the massive cut in gas prices is finally being seen by the household consumer and are set to go back to normal. As far as wind droughts are concerned I would agree in many parts of the world, but the UK not so much as we have this little thing called the gulf stream. Please read up on it! The UK arent wholly reliant on wind and have an extremely diverse mix of energy projects, including solar, nuclear (both fission and fusion), pumped storage, hydrogen etc etc. The UK also has 8 interconnectors with other countries for peaks in demand. I suggest some reading on these projects may help you to understand the real situation. One final point the Tory government is irrelevant to new powergen projects as when Labour win the next election they will continue with all of them and if anything ramp them up. Following Putlers invasion of Ukraine can you imagine how much worse it would have been for the UK had we been primarily reliant on gas, coal and whats left of our nuclear fleet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: As far as wind droughts are concerned I would agree in many parts of the world, but the UK not so much as we have this little thing called the gulf stream. Please read up on it! I have repeated challenged Mark and certain others to find evidence of these Europe wide wind droughts that allegedly last weeks or months. They never do because they don't exist. Years worth of archive data below. Daily Wind Power Numbers Archive | WindEurope Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 May 15, 2023 1 hour ago, NickW said: I have repeated challenged Mark and certain others to find evidence of these Europe wide wind droughts that allegedly last weeks or months. They never do because they don't exist. Years worth of archive data below. Daily Wind Power Numbers Archive | WindEurope Still lying I see. I used Germany's own numbers using THEIR own data to show wind droughts giving less than 10% Capacity factor for weeks every winter, right when you need energy the most. Sorry you can't admit to basic reality or the fact that the UK and others on the North Sea literally has the best wind resource on the planet and playing make believe what works for the North Sea works for others is beyond stupid. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 May 15, 2023 22 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Sorry you can't admit to basic reality or the fact that the UK and others on the North Sea literally has the best wind resource on the planet and playing make believe what works for the North Sea works for others is beyond stupid. Indeed stupid perhaps short sided. Can you imagine building that much power generation and not being able to use it? They do not have the grid to distribute it, they do not have the battery capacity to store it...Hmm I'd almost bet they have no demand for it. Both wind and solar are highly unstable power generation systems. The tech does not exist stabilize it or distribute it at almost any added cost. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM May 15, 2023 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said: Indeed stupid perhaps short sided. Can you imagine building that much power generation and not being able to use it? They do not have the grid to distribute it, they do not have the battery capacity to store it...Hmm I'd almost bet they have no demand for it. Both wind and solar are highly unstable power generation systems. The tech does not exist stabilize it or distribute it at almost any added cost. and yet no problems in the UK..... stupid and short sided???? UK has built it and uses it with no problems.....with the 1st quarter of this year %33 percent of their electrical production met by wind and now they import less and less fossil fuels .....Which greatly adds to their economy and their national security can you post a recent blackout in the UK due to lack of wind????? no because they also have, as a backup,...... Pump storage...and building more....which is powered by excess wind production Gas Generating facilities...with gas storage which can accommodate up to 15 percent green hydrogen Battery Storage and building more.... building green Hydrogen production....which is powered by surplus wind energy production and the UK has 9GW of grid connects to 5 Countries to help import power if needed and they are building more..... Edited May 15, 2023 by notsonice 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Still lying I see. I used Germany's own numbers using THEIR own data to show wind droughts giving less than 10% Capacity factor for weeks every winter, right when you need energy the most. Sorry you can't admit to basic reality or the fact that the UK and others on the North Sea literally has the best wind resource on the planet and playing make believe what works for the North Sea works for others is beyond stupid. I said Europe Wide. Germany isn't 'Europe wide' Note Rob Plants comment on the UK having 8GW of interconnectors. Europe is extremely well interconnected Its very unusual for 'Europe wide' collective production to drop below 10% . This month its sitting between 11 and 15% on a dialy basis. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 15, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said: Indeed stupid perhaps short sided. Can you imagine building that much power generation and not being able to use it? They do not have the grid to distribute it, they do not have the battery capacity to store it...Hmm I'd almost bet they have no demand for it. Both wind and solar are highly unstable power generation systems. The tech does not exist stabilize it or distribute it at almost any added cost. 🤡 You make it up as you go along don't you? There are occasionally short term curtailments in Scotland due to limits on transmission capacity but by and large it all gets used. When the wind blows hard: Pump storage goes into reverse (thats almost 4GW in the UK) Hydro near idles Gas plant throttles back, coal if its operating Biomass throttles back 7.4 GW of interconnection with mainland Europe and Scandinavia exports large amounts as the UK wholesale price falls below European mainland prices. Norway refills its pump storage using UK wind. There are about 2.5GW / 800 MWh of battery capacity Many large industrial users take advantage of low prices (Cold stores in particular) Edited May 15, 2023 by NickW 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 May 15, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, NickW said: You make it up as you go along don't you? Let's US st start here Nick W., now if you do not like that source there are many readily available. Perhaps baby steps are in order here..It is a stunning portrayal of sheer incompetence. https://blog.argonautcapital.co.uk/articles/2022/04/29/wind-overbuild-why-more-wind-wont-work/ WIND OVERBUILD: WHY MORE WIND WON’T WORK’ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/07/the-best-electricity-plan-overbuild-solar-wind-power-plants/ The Best Electricity Plan: Overbuild Solar & Wind Power Plants More than 8 years ago, researchers from the University of Delaware (UD) and Delaware Technical College (DTCC) put forward a rather “radical” idea — to deal with wind and solar power’s intermittency while also acknowledging wind and solar power’s falling costs, why not just overbuild wind and solar power plants in the future? https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/UK-Wind-Farms-Are-Producing-Too-Much-Energy.html UK Wind Farms Are Producing Too Much Energy National Grid forked out £82m to operators of wind farms last month to constrain supplies and reduce output amid blustery conditions, to prevent the UK’s energy network from being overwhelmed. This is on top of £122m it has paid out over the first 11 months of 2022 – as part of £1.34bn it spent to manage supplies last year. Edited May 16, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 May 15, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, notsonice said: stupid and short sided???? Calm down spooky, I understand the past 30 days might have stressful so let's start this out correctly. Indeed stupid "perhaps short sided. As opposed to... stupid and short sided???? Agreed? Edited May 15, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM May 15, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said: Calm down spooky, I understand the past 30 days might have stressful so let's start this out correctly. Indeed stupid "perhaps short sided. As opposed to... stupid and short sided???? Agreed? stupid and short sided????....it defines your posts your inability to post any facts behind your BS babble shows that you are the King of Stupid . Enjoy the Renewables Boom.......I am PS Coal is Toast Edited May 15, 2023 by notsonice 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 May 15, 2023 3 hours ago, NickW said: I said Europe Wide. Germany isn't 'Europe wide' Note Rob Plants comment on the UK having 8GW of interconnectors. Europe is extremely well interconnected Its very unusual for 'Europe wide' collective production to drop below 10% . This month its sitting between 11 and 15% on a dialy basis. There is ZERO interconnector Europe wide. Greece is not tied to the UK. Spain/Africa are NOT tied to the UK. Start with Electrical production needs to increase by 4X minimum which means ~25% load X 4X = 100% current total load of "interconnector" required or thereabouts assuming most power comes from other backup. 1st interconnector between spain/France is just now discussing being built and a mere ~5GW(technically they are connected but in effect trade zero power). You are going to need ~200GW-->500GW minimum and more than likely MUCH higher. I'll let you try and built 500GW power lines from Spain northwards, let alone the area to actually harvest said small amount of wind. I am sure the locals will just "LOVE" such right of way... 1 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichieRich$ + 65 RK May 16, 2023 Good read, Meridith, You can pretty much count out The State of Florida, and New home insurance guidelines are you will not get a policy if you have Solar Panels on your roof. It seems that the hurricane seasons have shown that roofs with Solar Panels tend to have more wind damage because the Solar Panels mount in a way that grabs more surface air which puts more strain on the top of the roofs. What few Insurance Companies are left in Florida and the State-run Citizens is the insurer of the last resort, will not begin to cover homes with Solar Panels on the roofs. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 May 16, 2023 46 minutes ago, RichieRich$ said: Good read, Meridith, You can pretty much count out The State of Florida, and New home insurance guidelines are you will not get a policy if you have Solar Panels on your roof. It seems that the hurricane seasons have shown that roofs with Solar Panels tend to have more wind damage because the Solar Panels mount in a way that grabs more surface air which puts more strain on the top of the roofs. What few Insurance Companies are left in Florida and the State-run Citizens is the insurer of the last resort, will not begin to cover homes with Solar Panels on the roofs. Well, True, but all this means is one must install the panels in a different(sealed to roof) manner. Essentially shielding on the sides which is dirt cheap to install, but the REAL question is: WHY the HELL does ANYONE "insure" their roof? How dumb are people? Unless you are renting to other people and want whole home insurance, why does ANYONE get insurance on a home? << Shakes head in disbelief >> Talk about a scam... home "insurance"... If there EVER is a problem, they drag their heels which ruins whatever is left of the house in near 100% of ALL cases as YOU the home owner are NOT allowed to touch your own house to stop ingress of water for instance if the roof is lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eyes Wide Open + 3,555 May 16, 2023 3 hours ago, notsonice said: stupid and short sided????....it defines your posts your inability to post any facts behind your BS babble shows that you are the King of Stupid . Enjoy the Renewables Boom.......I am PS Coal is Toast Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 16, 2023 10 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said: Let's US st start here Nick W., now if you do not like that source there are many readily available. Perhaps baby steps are in order here..It is a stunning portrayal of sheer incompetence. https://blog.argonautcapital.co.uk/articles/2022/04/29/wind-overbuild-why-more-wind-wont-work/ WIND OVERBUILD: WHY MORE WIND WON’T WORK’ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/07/the-best-electricity-plan-overbuild-solar-wind-power-plants/ The Best Electricity Plan: Overbuild Solar & Wind Power Plants More than 8 years ago, researchers from the University of Delaware (UD) and Delaware Technical College (DTCC) put forward a rather “radical” idea — to deal with wind and solar power’s intermittency while also acknowledging wind and solar power’s falling costs, why not just overbuild wind and solar power plants in the future? https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/UK-Wind-Farms-Are-Producing-Too-Much-Energy.html UK Wind Farms Are Producing Too Much Energy National Grid forked out £82m to operators of wind farms last month to constrain supplies and reduce output amid blustery conditions, to prevent the UK’s energy network from being overwhelmed. This is on top of £122m it has paid out over the first 11 months of 2022 – as part of £1.34bn it spent to manage supplies last year. Except they are working across the whole of Europe. I acknowledged there are occasional constraints due to transmission bottlenecks but that problem is rapidly being resolved by a combination of transmission upgrades and build out of battery storage in key locations. Longer term H2 production will also act as an outlet and temporary storage medium. You get exactly the same problem with nukes when demand drops off except when you switch a nuke off it takes weeks to restart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickW + 2,714 NW May 16, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: There is ZERO interconnector Europe wide. Greece is not tied to the UK. Spain/Africa are NOT tied to the UK. Start with Electrical production needs to increase by 4X minimum which means ~25% load X 4X = 100% current total load of "interconnector" required or thereabouts assuming most power comes from other backup. 1st interconnector between spain/France is just now discussing being built and a mere ~5GW(technically they are connected but in effect trade zero power). You are going to need ~200GW-->500GW minimum and more than likely MUCH higher. I'll let you try and built 500GW power lines from Spain northwards, let alone the area to actually harvest said small amount of wind. I am sure the locals will just "LOVE" such right of way... 🤡 Sure in the same way we aren't directly interconnected to Armenia or Turkey, or Kazakstan..... Why on earth would you need to build a 200GW / 500GW interconnector between Spain and France. Spains entire generating capacity is 79GW (includes solar and wind). Frances is 130GW (34 of which is wind and solar). Peak demand is significant below those figures in both cases. In any case cross land border interconnectors are not expensive given the population density in Europe. The interconnector might be a couple of hundred meters of overhead pylons. Yesterday France was exporting >10GW to Italy with Spain backfilling about 2.8GW into France. Edited May 16, 2023 by NickW 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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