Cheaper prices due to renewables - forget it

[turbguy + 1,543]

4 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The absolute steam conditions are decreasing dramatically over very short periods of time with your steam generators . It is a physical law. What is wrong with you?

Batteries are far cheaper for the same capability and is why they outnumber molten salt installations by such a large amount that no one bothers to calculate the difference. In the US there are maybe 3 molten salt storage units and that is it (1 in Nevada, 2 in Arizona) ; Batteries are being built all overl

Think about it.

I have a supply of 550 degrees C fluid in a tank.

I drain that hot fluid, extracting the thermal energy from the fluid flow (cooled to, say, 170 degrees C), into another tank.

The inlet temperature of the hot fluid does not change ("upper reservoir")

The outlet temperature of the cold fluid does not change ("lower reservoir").

Of course, I gotta "pump it back up" at some time.

Are there losses?  Yes, but they are really small, similar to upper reservoir evaporation/leakage.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

16 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Think about it.

I have a supply of 550 degrees C fluid in a tank.

I drain that hot fluid, extracting the thermal energy from the fluid flow (cooled to, say, 170 degrees C), into another tank.

The inlet temperature of the hot fluid does not change ("upper reservoir")

The outlet temperature of the cold fluid does not change ("lower reservoir").

Of course, I gotta "pump it back up" at some time.

Are there losses?  Yes, but they are really small, similar to upper reservoir evaporation/leakage.

WTF are you talking about???? You aren't even describing temperature storage. It has nothing to do with upper and lower reservoirs.

Temperature loss is huge. That is why temperature energy storage is not a thing anywhere for more than an hour or two.

If it is so amazing then give us an example of even just one temperature storage unit that is more successful than a battery.

Apparently you have completely capitulated over coal contract lengths.

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[turbguy + 1,543]

39 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

WTF are you talking about????

Temperature loss is huge. That is why temperature energy storage is not a thing anywhere for more than an hour or two.

If it is so amazing then give us an example of even just one temperature storage unit that is more successful than a battery.

 

Why is temperature loss "huge"?  If proper insulating materials are used with low thermal conductivity, the losses are small.

You mentioned them.  I'll name them.

Ivanpah

Solana

Tonopah

As far as I know, these (renewable) systems (while having initial engineering and construction oversights and cost overruns) are still producing.  They seem to work to me.  Do you have other info?

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by turbguy

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

11 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Why is temperature loss "huge"?  If proper insulating materials are used with low thermal conductivity, the losses are small.

You mentioned them.  I'll name them.

Ivanpah

Solana

Tonopah

As far as I know, these systems (while having initial engineering and construction oversights and cost overruns) are still producing.  They seem to work to me.  Do you have other info?

 

Jay is out of sorts...grumpy...triggered actually. The Green Dream suffered enormous losses the last few months. 

The guy is so bent I had him screaming at Memes all over the boards a few days ago. Truly psychopath behavior..do not expect a linear conversation.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[turbguy + 1,543]

8 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Jay is out of sorts...grumpy...triggered actually. The Green Dream suffered enormous losses the last few months. 

The guy is so bent I had him screaming at Memes all over the boards a few days ago. Truly psychopath behavior..do not expect a linear conversation.

I give him space.

Hey, I can become exasperated as well.

 

[turbguy + 1,543]

 

 

While the technology is still young, molten salt thermal storage (MST) is gaining traction and finding applications outside of the USA.

Europe:

• Gemasolar Thermosolar Plant (Spain): This plant, operational since 2011, holds the record for the longest continuous electricity generation from a CSP plant at 36 days. It uses molten salt to store 15 hours of thermal energy, allowing for 24/7 power generation.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  Gemasolar Thermosolar Plant, Spain
• Andasol 1, 2, and 3 (Spain): These three plants, operational since 2008, use molten salt storage to provide up to 7.5 hours of dispatchable power. They were the first commercial-scale CSP plants to use this technology.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  Andasol 1, 2, and 3, Spain
• District heating accumulation tower (Austria): This tower, located near Krems an der Donau, uses molten salt to store 2 GWh of thermal energy, providing district heating for the city even during periods of low solar radiation.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  District heating accumulation tower, Austria
• Bozen-Bolzano thermal energy storage tower (Italy): This tower, inaugurated in 2017, stores 1.1 GWh of thermal energy and supplies heat to a district heating network, reducing reliance on fossil fuels.
  Opens in a new window www.innovation-intelligence.com

  BozenBolzano thermal energy storage tower, Italy

Asia:

• Delingha Molten Salt Power Tower Demonstration Project (China): This 100 MW CSP plant, operational since 2018, uses molten salt storage to provide 15 hours of dispatchable power. It represents a significant step towards large-scale MST deployment in China.
  Opens in a new window helioscsp.com

  Delingha Molten Salt Power Tower Demonstration Project, China
• Hami 200 MW Molten Salt CSP Plant (China): This plant, currently under construction, will utilize molten salt storage for 24/7 power generation. It will be one of the largest CSP plants in the world upon completion.

Middle East:

• Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park (Dubai): This massive solar complex includes a 700 MW CSP plant with 15 hours of molten salt storage. It is the largest single-site solar park in the world and demonstrates the potential of MST in the region.
  Opens in a new window www.mbrsic.ae

  Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park, Dubai

Africa:

• Redstone Concentrated Solar Power Plant (South Africa): This 100 MW plant, under construction, will incorporate molten salt storage for dispatchable power generation. It aims to provide clean and reliable energy to South Africa's grid.
  Opens in a new window www.solarpaces.org

  Redstone Concentrated Solar Power Plant, South Africa

These are just a few examples.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

23 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Why is temperature loss "huge"?  If proper insulating materials are used with low thermal conductivity, the losses are small.

You mentioned them.  I'll name them.

Ivanpah

Solana

Tonopah

As far as I know, these (renewable) systems (while having initial engineering and construction oversights and cost overruns) are still producing.  They seem to work to me.  Do you have other info?

 

As i said there is one in Nevada and two in Arizona you still got Ivanpah wrong. Thank you for confirming how rare these idiots are and none have anything to do with elevation as you claimed. Ivanpah is not molten salt, it is just water and only lasts for the hour or two I mentioned and then requires a massive amount of natural gas burning every day to get started. It will only exist until its PPA expires in 2035. Tonopah was complete disaster that had to be literally rebuilt by the government and bailed out and is still a failure which will not last past their end of PPA. 

There are zero, 0 molten salt facilities planned in the US. How do you not know this???

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

30 minutes ago, turbguy said:

 

 

 

While the technology is still young, molten salt thermal storage (MST) is gaining traction and finding applications outside of the USA.

Europe:

• Gemasolar Thermosolar Plant (Spain): This plant, operational since 2011, holds the record for the longest continuous electricity generation from a CSP plant at 36 days. It uses molten salt to store 15 hours of thermal energy, allowing for 24/7 power generation.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  Gemasolar Thermosolar Plant, Spain
• Andasol 1, 2, and 3 (Spain): These three plants, operational since 2008, use molten salt storage to provide up to 7.5 hours of dispatchable power. They were the first commercial-scale CSP plants to use this technology.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  Andasol 1, 2, and 3, Spain
• District heating accumulation tower (Austria): This tower, located near Krems an der Donau, uses molten salt to store 2 GWh of thermal energy, providing district heating for the city even during periods of low solar radiation.
  Opens in a new window en.wikipedia.org

  District heating accumulation tower, Austria
• Bozen-Bolzano thermal energy storage tower (Italy): This tower, inaugurated in 2017, stores 1.1 GWh of thermal energy and supplies heat to a district heating network, reducing reliance on fossil fuels.
  Opens in a new window www.innovation-intelligence.com

  BozenBolzano thermal energy storage tower, Italy

Asia:

• Delingha Molten Salt Power Tower Demonstration Project (China): This 100 MW CSP plant, operational since 2018, uses molten salt storage to provide 15 hours of dispatchable power. It represents a significant step towards large-scale MST deployment in China.
  Opens in a new window helioscsp.com

  Delingha Molten Salt Power Tower Demonstration Project, China
• Hami 200 MW Molten Salt CSP Plant (China): This plant, currently under construction, will utilize molten salt storage for 24/7 power generation. It will be one of the largest CSP plants in the world upon completion.

Middle East:

• Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park (Dubai): This massive solar complex includes a 700 MW CSP plant with 15 hours of molten salt storage. It is the largest single-site solar park in the world and demonstrates the potential of MST in the region.
  Opens in a new window www.mbrsic.ae

  Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park, Dubai

Africa:

• Redstone Concentrated Solar Power Plant (South Africa): This 100 MW plant, under construction, will incorporate molten salt storage for dispatchable power generation. It aims to provide clean and reliable energy to South Africa's grid.
  Opens in a new window www.solarpaces.org

  Redstone Concentrated Solar Power Plant, South Africa

These are just a few examples.

They are the only examples. 100Mw is a joke and you know it. Everything else is ancient or just pheble future claims. Try again.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[turbguy + 1,543]

2 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

 

There are zero, 0 molten salt facilities planned in the US. How do you not know this???

 

You are correct about Ivanpah, my bad.

Did I mention "elevation" somewhere?  That does apply to pumped storage.

As for planned:

https://natriumpower.com/

Makes sense to rely on nuclear energy for "pumping it back up".

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

Think about it.

I have a supply of 550 degrees C fluid in a tank.

I drain that hot fluid, extracting the thermal energy from the fluid flow (cooled to, say, 170 degrees C), into another tank.

The inlet temperature of the hot fluid does not change ("upper reservoir")

The outlet temperature of the cold fluid does not change ("lower reservoir").

Of course, I gotta "pump it back up" at some time.

Are there losses?  Yes, but they are really small, similar to upper reservoir evaporation/leakage.

You said elevation was relevant right here.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

4 minutes ago, turbguy said:

You are correct about Ivanpah, my bad.

Did I mention "elevation" somewhere?  That does apply to pumped storage.

As for planned:

https://natriumpower.com/

Makes sense to rely on nuclear energy for "pumping it back up".

Good god man using molten salt in a reactor, if it even works, has nothing to do with energy storage that you have been posting about.

[turbguy + 1,543]

36 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Good god man using molten salt in a reactor, if it even works, has nothing to do with energy storage that you have been posting about.

Keep reading the site.  It will use molten salt for thermal storage.  The reactor coolant is liquid sodium,  you know...NATRIUM.  Na.

Don't ignore the early experiences with wind turbines (again, in Wyoming).   The ME on that disaster was a close acquaintance (orh, the stories!).  Go to page 41.

https://www.usbr.gov/history/ProjectHistories/Wind Electric Power Project.pdf

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,543]

21 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You said elevation was relevant right here.

Where??

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, turbguy said:

Where??

[turbguy + 1,543]

5 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I don;t see the word "elevation" anywhere.

Although, there is an analogy between "elevation differential" between pumped-storage reservoirs, and the "temperature differential" between hot and cold thermal storage fluids.

Just because I take hot fluid out of a tank, that action does NOT reduce the temperature of the remaining fluid in the tank.

Edited December 5, 2023 by turbguy

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Keep reading the site.  It will use molten salt for thermal storage.  The reactor coolant is liquid sodium,  you know...NATRIUM.

Don't ignore the early experiences with wind turbines (again, in Wyoming).   The ME on that disaster was a close acquaintance (orh, the stories!).  Go to page 41.

https://www.usbr.gov/history/ProjectHistories/Wind Electric Power Project.pdf

 

 

They claim they will use molten salt for thermal storage. What you keep missing is that it is a complete failure save one plant in Arizona that has just barely made a go of it. 

Batteries have already left it in the dust. What is coming are non molten salt batteries which is a huge distinction as temp is irrelevant.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

6 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I don;t see the word "elevation" anywhere.

Although, there is an analogy between "elevation differential" between pumped-storage reservoirs, and the "temperature differential" between hot and cold thermal storage fluids.

Just because I take hot fluid out of a tank, that action does NOT reduce the temperature of the remaining fluid in the tank.

You clearly say upper and lower reservoir.

[turbguy + 1,543]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

They claim they will use molten salt for thermal storage. What you keep missing is that it is a complete failure save one plant in Arizona that has just barely made a go of it. 

Batteries have already left it in the dust. What is coming are non molten salt batteries which is a huge distinction as temp is irrelevant.

I don't have an issue with batteries.  I expect them to continually improve.  Flow batteries look very promising to me.  Combined with power electronics in grid-forming inverters, they are REALLY good at grid stability support.  Keep 'em coming!

[turbguy + 1,543]

3 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

You clearly say upper and lower reservoir.

As an ANALOGY to pumped storage.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

7 minutes ago, turbguy said:

As an ANALOGY to pumped storage.

Nice try. Not buying it because nothing you said supports that analogy. Pumped storage has nothing to do with heat.

Heat fades fast, pumped storage can last hundreds if not thousands of years.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[turbguy + 1,543]

Just now, Jay McKinsey said:

Nice try. Not buying it because nothing you said supports that analogy. Pumped storage has nothing to do with heat.

Note that the words "upper reservoir" and "lower reservoir" are in quotes, to imply a analogy.

The difference in storage techniques is potential energy vs thermal energy.

(BTW, the tail-race of of any hydro unit is cooler than the penstock temperature.  Not by much, but it is sensible).

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

11 minutes ago, turbguy said:

Note that the words "upper reservoir" and "lower reservoir" are in quotes, to imply a analogy.

The difference in storage techniques is potential energy vs thermal energy.

(BTW, the tail-race of of any hydro unit is cooler than the penstock temperature.  Not by much, but it is sensible).

So a terrible analogy. One remains almost forever and the other goes away quickly. 

Your tail-race condition is irrelevant and just shows that you are aware of how bad this analogy is.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[turbguy + 1,543]

32 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

So a terrible analogy. One remains almost forever and the other goes away quickly. 

Almost forever?  Most USA pumped-storage installations I am familiar with have about 8 hours (+/-) of full load storage. Then, nothing.  Just like Thermal storage (except thermal storage has a smaller footprint).

That said, a con that thermal storage has is that it runs a damn heat engine, which throws away 60+ percent of the energy.  Batteries and Pumped storage have much higher full turn efficiencies (about 80%, +/-).  But since you are getting the BTU's from nuclear fission, the heat's kinda cheap.

Edited December 5, 2023 by turbguy

[specinho + 467]

18 hours ago, James Pipe said:

The limitation of wind/solar power can be balanced by nuclear power. It might be the reason many countries are pushing for nuclear power in Dubai COP28.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxzKbCQIAhM

Host of cop28, in replying question from US representative, mentioned transition takes time. Fossil fuel is going to stay for awhile.

 

Besides, There has been a discussion on linkedin regarding shutting down coal plants in the US.

There is a comment trying to explain why some fossil fuel plants, including coal, are in fact producing clean energy. The later is defined as mode of energy generation that produces no carbon particle, but CO2 and water vapour.

This author mentioned coal is essential in providing low costs production and low costs but higher standard living. Review on info provided ( if it is factual) and policy is needed. 

The author also mentioned that the latest info on this discussion board gathered real culprits for climate change as:

1. Drastic increase in total global population 

 

2. Massive urbanization induces massive increase in concrete forest and reduction in pristine forest. 

 

Question raised:

is it true that if half life of radioactive uranium is millions of years, then by using the tiny bit of starting material in nuclear reactor, the energy generating cycle would be able to last that long, with basic maintenance? 

If not, who is to ensure safety of this mode after retirement of most pioneers and capable senior engineers?

Fukushima incidence shows Japan, as a top few country in quality of technology created, could be frumbling during emergency. The disastrous management and aftermath solution, including released of radioactive water into ocean of the world, is a warning of existing management skill and knowledge gap... 

Latest discussion here also shows Enclosed or static cycle of water, air or wind, from mechanical energy, might have showed the latest sign of sustainability and costs efficiency.

 If we can address the real key contributors to climate change, and have alternative ways with no flaw, do we still need to be in a hurry to put solution with flaws up in massive scale? 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

12 hours ago, turbguy said:

Almost forever?  Most USA pumped-storage installations I am familiar with have about 8 hours (+/-) of full load storage. Then, nothing.  Just like Thermal storage (except thermal storage has a smaller footprint).

That said, a con that thermal storage has is that it runs a damn heat engine, which throws away 60+ percent of the energy.  Batteries and Pumped storage have much higher full turn efficiencies (about 80%, +/-).  But since you are getting the BTU's from nuclear fission, the heat's kinda cheap.

Heat dissipates rapidly no matter what, water in a pumped storage reservoir can sit there for years until evaporation removes it.