Wind energy costs are rising

[markslawson + 1,057]

The offshore wind energy narrative usually includes a statement about how that source of energy is becoming steadily cheaper. Well it isn't. 

This is an excerpt from an article in the UK's Sunday Telegraph

A string of offshore wind projects meant to power Britain are in jeopardy after the global race to net zero sent costs soaring, casting doubt over the industry’s future as a cheap source of energy.

A surge in supply chain costs has pushed up the price of wind turbines, while increases in global interest rates have raised refinancing costs substantially.

It has made several projects unviable just a year after they won government subsidy contracts – leading to fears from industry insiders that Britain’s future is in jeopardy as the “Saudi Arabia of wind”.

The article dealt with some of the details of the way the UK government encourages offshore wind but says that the winners of a government auction a year ago are now saying that the fixed price contracts they won are now no good and the price has to be increased substantially. (Note, my understanding of the system is that the UK grid pays for whatever power is generated at the agreed strike price, whether it can use the power or not - the contracts for difference mechanism used is just a means of fixing the price. Anyway, this should be a sweet deal and they still can't make it work.) What it comes down to is that the companies involved want more government assistance, not less.

Then there are the problems at Siemens wind turbines division.

 A record sell-off in Siemens Energy shares has laid bare a major loss of confidence by investors in the group's ability to fix its struggling wind turbine division, leaving them fearful of what else to expect down the road.

Siemens Energy's stock plunged by a third on Friday, knocking nearly 7 billion euros ($7.6 billion) off the group's market value, after it warned of deeper quality problems at Siemens Gamesa - just weeks after the group managed to acquire the remaining stake in the wind turbine unit. 

Siemens Gamesa bills itself as a leader in renewable energy, particularly offshore wind, but as can be seen from page 5 of this Siemens Energy profit announcement seems to have been losing money for some time, despite increases in revenue. (Note Siemens Gamesa is a part of Siemens Energy which is profitable overall).

Offshore wind, it seems, is not a solution to anything but another huge problem building up which will have to be dealt with sooner or later.  

  

[notsonice + 1,255]

25 minutes ago, markslawson said:

The offshore wind energy narrative usually includes a statement about how that source of energy is becoming steadily cheaper. Well it isn't. 

This is an excerpt from an article in the UK's Sunday Telegraph

A string of offshore wind projects meant to power Britain are in jeopardy after the global race to net zero sent costs soaring, casting doubt over the industry’s future as a cheap source of energy.

A surge in supply chain costs has pushed up the price of wind turbines, while increases in global interest rates have raised refinancing costs substantially.

It has made several projects unviable just a year after they won government subsidy contracts – leading to fears from industry insiders that Britain’s future is in jeopardy as the “Saudi Arabia of wind”.

The article dealt with some of the details of the way the UK government encourages offshore wind but says that the winners of a government auction a year ago are now saying that the fixed price contracts they won are now no good and the price has to be increased substantially. (Note, my understanding of the system is that the UK grid pays for whatever power is generated at the agreed strike price, whether it can use the power or not - the contracts for difference mechanism used is just a means of fixing the price. Anyway, this should be a sweet deal and they still can't make it work.) What it comes down to is that the companies involved want more government assistance, not less.

Then there are the problems at Siemens wind turbines division.

 A record sell-off in Siemens Energy shares has laid bare a major loss of confidence by investors in the group's ability to fix its struggling wind turbine division, leaving them fearful of what else to expect down the road.

Siemens Energy's stock plunged by a third on Friday, knocking nearly 7 billion euros ($7.6 billion) off the group's market value, after it warned of deeper quality problems at Siemens Gamesa - just weeks after the group managed to acquire the remaining stake in the wind turbine unit. 

Siemens Gamesa bills itself as a leader in renewable energy, particularly offshore wind, but as can be seen from page 5 of this Siemens Energy profit announcement seems to have been losing money for some time, despite increases in revenue. (Note Siemens Gamesa is a part of Siemens Energy which is profitable overall).

Offshore wind, it seems, is not a solution to anything but another huge problem building up which will have to be dealt with sooner or later.  

  

cost of everyting went up......Thanks to the energy crisis that was created by Putin

Wind turbine projects are not the only thing that inflation hit

Wind projects in the UK are at a record level and the UK's dependence on foriegn energy supplies is heading toward zero

Looks like the Wind is doing its job

A country that is going to have a future without Foreigners in charge of its energy destiny...

Can you say F Russia and Opec........The UK can

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by notsonice

[markslawson + 1,057]

22 hours ago, notsonice said:

Wind projects in the UK are at a record level and the UK's dependence on foriegn energy supplies is heading toward zero

Bwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhahahahahahahah! Electricity costs are going through the roof thanks to Britain still being dependent on gas, big time, and wind making this worse. See the earlier thread on this forum. I read one remark, probably over the top, that 70 per cent of UK restaurants might have to close due to high power bills. notsonice I think I'm going to give up reading any of your comments after this.. 

[RichieRich$ + 65]

23 hours ago, notsonice said:

cost of everyting went up......Thanks to the energy crisis that was created by Putin

Wind turbine projects are not the only thing that inflation hit

Wind projects in the UK are at a record level and the UK's dependence on foriegn energy supplies is heading toward zero

Looks like the Wind is doing its job

A country that is going to have a future without Foreigners in charge of its energy destiny...

Can you say F Russia and Opec........The UK can

 

After spending most of the previous 25 years as a net exporter of energy the UK became a net importer in 2004.

The gap between imports and exports has increased since 2004. In 2017 UK imports of energy were almost twice as large as its exports. Net imports made up 36% of UK energy needs. 

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04046/assets/b6e893d8-c6a4-4baa-8f41-a901d7e05f1a.png

In the same year the value of gross imports of energy of £45 billion or £18 billion more than gross exports.

Gas and oil make up around 90% of energy imports. A relatively small amount of electricity is imported and coal import have fallen dramatically as much less coal is now used for generation.

Only Norway, Canada and Australia of the OECD states are net exporters of energy. The UK’s energy import dependency is less than levels in France, Germany, Japan, Korea, and Italy, but greater than the US.

The UK’s dependence on imported energy looks set to continue to increase in the future. This, alongside higher fuel prices and increased concern over the security of energy supply has increased the attention on energy imports and exports over the past decade.

SAT WHAT!

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

37 minutes ago, markslawson said:

 Electricity costs are going through the roof thanks to Britain still being dependent on gas, big time, 

Speak the truth brother!!! Being dependent on natural gas is driving the cost of electricity through the roof!! Good thing they are investing in cheap renewables to solve this problem.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[RichieRich$ + 65]

23 hours ago, notsonice said:

cost of everyting went up......Thanks to the energy crisis that was created by Putin

Wind turbine projects are not the only thing that inflation hit

Wind projects in the UK are at a record level and the UK's dependence on foriegn energy supplies is heading toward zero

Looks like the Wind is doing its job

A country that is going to have a future without Foreigners in charge of its energy destiny...

Can you say F Russia and Opec........The UK can

 

The UK imports around 50% of its gas from the international market and most homes in England and Wales are heated by mains gas supply.Jun 29, 2022

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

6 minutes ago, RichieRich$ said:

The UK imports around 50% of its gas from the international market and most homes in England and Wales are heated by mains gas supply.Jun 29, 2022

 So 50% of their gas is domestic. So what?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:33 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

Speak the truth brother!!! Being dependent on natural gas is driving the cost of electricity through the roof!! Good thing they are investing in cheap renewables to solve this problem.

Jay - the problem with renewables in Britain is that they've turned out to be more expensive than gas. Check out the thread I posted on this a few weeks back. So I'm afraid its you who has to catch up with the truth. Green ideology also means that the UK hasn't been searching for their own sources of gas, particularly in the North Sea, as they should have been doing. To much is being imported so the country is very vulnerable to disruptions. Basically as is really expensive and renewables are  not helping at all..   

[notsonice + 1,255]

 

Lazard, which specializes in financial advice and asset management, conducts a regular revue of what is known in the utility industry as the levelized cost of energy. For those who may not know exactly what that means, here is how the folks at Wikipedia explain it:

“The levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is a measure of the average net present cost of electricity generation for a generator over its lifetime. It is used for investment planning and to compare different methods of electricity generation on a consistent basis.

“The LCOE ‘represents the average revenue per unit of electricity generated that would be required to recover the costs of building and operating a generating plant during an assumed financial life and duty cycle’, and is calculated as the ratio between all the discounted costs over the lifetime of an electricity generating plant divided by a discounted sum of the actual energy amounts delivered.

“Inputs to LCOE are chosen by the estimator. They can include the cost of capital, decommissioning, fuel costs, fixed and variable operations and maintenance costs, financing costs, and an assumed utilization rate.”

Some might refer to it as the bottom line. Taking all relevant factors into account, how much does it cost to generate the electricity we use to power our world?

The latest LCOE study from Lazard says it clearly — renewable energy from wind and solar resources is cheaper than electricity from thermal generators powered by coal, oil, or methane gas. Period. Full stop. (See the chart above.)

The latest report focuses on the United States but Australia’s Renew Economy says the results are applicable to most global markets as well. Its findings show renewables like wind and solar out-compete coal, oil, and gas even when utility scale storage is taken into account. Lazard has been saying the same thing since 2019.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

6 hours ago, markslawson said:

Jay - the problem with renewables in Britain is that they've turned out to be more expensive than gas. Check out the thread I posted on this a few weeks back. So I'm afraid its you who has to catch up with the truth. Green ideology also means that the UK hasn't been searching for their own sources of gas, particularly in the North Sea, as they should have been doing. To much is being imported so the country is very vulnerable to disruptions. Basically as is really expensive and renewables are  not helping at all..   

Mark - the problem is that you are completely detached from reality and becoming more desperate by the day. Your thread crusade is hilarious.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[markslawson + 1,057]

10 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Mark - the problem is that you are completely detached from reality and becoming more desperate by the day. Your thread crusade is hilarious.

Jay - at least in previous responses you would have had some sort of counter argument. Now its just silly abuse completely unjustified by anything I've written. Not worth a response. Leave it with you. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

15 hours ago, notsonice said:

The latest LCOE study from Lazard says it clearly — renewable energy from wind and solar resources is cheaper than electricity from thermal generators powered by coal, oil, or methane gas. Period. Full stop. (See the chart above.)

Sorry to rain on your parade, but those LCOE rankings were never intended to compare dispatchable (coal, gas, nuclear) with intermittent energy on a network. Some of the studies I saw way back when this point was being debated actually said this. Sure they sure intermittent sources are cheaper ON AN OUTPUT BASIS. The problem is that they are being used on grids where they have to be managed so that the grid supplies power 24/7. Intermittent sources on that basis may even be cheaper up to a point - maybe 10 per cent of supply - because it is easy to adjust the rest of the power sources. Beyond that there are serious problems with balancing costs (definitely not in the LCOE studies). Have a look at the thread which I posted a few weeks back, about the problems the UK grid has been having with wind. In addition to balancing costs there are all the costs of connecting the additional renewable generators, which are often far higher for renewable than for dispatchable. I should also say that this point was acknowledged a long time ago. The fact that people are still trying to use LCOE studies to claim that renewables are cheaper says a lot about the mind-state of wind advocates.    

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

4 hours ago, markslawson said:

Jay - at least in previous responses you would have had some sort of counter argument. Now its just silly abuse completely unjustified by anything I've written. Not worth a response. Leave it with you. 

You haven't made any arguments to counter. You have just posted endless threads that we all laugh at.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[notsonice + 1,255]

4 hours ago, markslawson said:

Sorry to rain on your parade, but those LCOE rankings were never intended to compare dispatchable (coal, gas, nuclear) with intermittent energy on a network. Some of the studies I saw way back when this point was being debated actually said this. Sure they sure intermittent sources are cheaper ON AN OUTPUT BASIS. The problem is that they are being used on grids where they have to be managed so that the grid supplies power 24/7. Intermittent sources on that basis may even be cheaper up to a point - maybe 10 per cent of supply - because it is easy to adjust the rest of the power sources. Beyond that there are serious problems with balancing costs (definitely not in the LCOE studies). Have a look at the thread which I posted a few weeks back, about the problems the UK grid has been having with wind. In addition to balancing costs there are all the costs of connecting the additional renewable generators, which are often far higher for renewable than for dispatchable. I should also say that this point was acknowledged a long time ago. The fact that people are still trying to use LCOE studies to claim that renewables are cheaper says a lot about the mind-state of wind advocates.    

you just post babble....never any facts and numbers

Wind and solar are being backed up with storage  (battery and pumped......intermittent????? ) and interconections

 

You attacked wind on its cost now you are backing up after I post real numbers on LCOE

 

Wind energy costs are rising??? 

more like wind and solar costs are dropping.......

Its findings show renewables like wind and solar out-compete coal, oil, and gas even when utility scale storage is taken into account. Lazard has been saying the same thing since 2019.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by notsonice

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

4 hours ago, notsonice said:

you just post babble....never any facts and numbers

Wind and solar are being backed up with storage  (battery and pumped......intermittent????? ) and interconections

Its findings show renewables like wind and solar out-compete coal, oil, and gas even when utility scale storage is taken into account. Lazard has been saying the same thing since 2019.

 

Ah, yes, magical utility scale storage...

Key terms those.  Would you by chance be HONEST and ADD those numbers to the LCOE...  Oh hell no, of course not, those costs are not part of wind/solar.... Would you by chance be HONEST and admit a couple hours of "utility scale storage" is utterly useless?  Oh Hell no, that would be admitting to reality requiring days of storage, not a mere hour or two or three. 

When you actually admit to DAYS of required "utility scale storage" additional costs, then and only then do you have the true cost of wind/solar.  Until then nothing but a dishonest charlatan liar.

[notsonice + 1,255]

47 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Ah, yes, magical utility scale storage...

Key terms those.  Would you by chance be HONEST and ADD those numbers to the LCOE...  Oh hell no, of course not, those costs are not part of wind/solar.... Would you by chance be HONEST and admit a couple hours of "utility scale storage" is utterly useless?  Oh Hell no, that would be admitting to reality requiring days of storage, not a mere hour or two or three. 

When you actually admit to DAYS of required "utility scale storage" additional costs, then and only then do you have the true cost of wind/solar.  Until then nothing but a dishonest charlatan liar.

magical utility scale storage... Key terms those.  Would you by chance be HONEST and ADD those numbers to the LCOE???????

 

can you read......

Its findings show renewables like wind and solar out-compete coal, oil, and gas even when utility scale storage is taken into account

 

are you not able to deal with the reality that wind and solar including the cost of battery storage are the cheapest way to produce power.......????

it will only get worse for you as Solar advances in effeciency is getting better and better and costs are dropping at the same time. Battery tech.........you aint seen nothing yet......

remember the fuel input of solar and wind are freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

enjoy Coal is toast...consumption  peaked in 2014

Oil is toast Peak was 2019 ....I bet you are still waiting for a dead cat bounce

and Nat gas ....the transition fuel....only a matter of time when it peaks.....2030 at the latest?????

Renewables are on a roll, enjoy the transition, I am

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by notsonice

[markslawson + 1,057]

18 hours ago, notsonice said:

you just post babble....never any facts and numbers

Wind and solar are being backed up with storage  (battery and pumped......intermittent????? ) and interconections

 

You attacked wind on its cost now you are backing up after I post real numbers on LCOE

Now you're becoming hysterical.. I trust after you've calmed down you'll see the points I was making. Otherwise leave it with you. I won't bother to respond to any more posts by you in this trhead.

[notsonice + 1,255]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Now you're becoming hysterical.. I trust after you've calmed down you'll see the points I was making. Otherwise leave it with you. I won't bother to respond to any more posts by you in this trhead.

enjoy

 

[Ecocharger + 1,470]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:55 PM, markslawson said:

Bwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhahahahahahahah! Electricity costs are going through the roof thanks to Britain still being dependent on gas, big time, and wind making this worse. See the earlier thread on this forum. I read one remark, probably over the top, that 70 per cent of UK restaurants might have to close due to high power bills. notsonice I think I'm going to give up reading any of your comments after this.. 

Should I cancel my vacation plans for Britain because of this energy disaster?

[Ecocharger + 1,470]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:39 PM, notsonice said:

enjoy

 

The point? That coal and natural gas are better? I guess that is what you are trying to tell us.

The chart ignores offshore wind....very expensive.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

The point? That coal and natural gas are better? I guess that is what you are trying to tell us.

The chart ignores offshore wind....very expensive.

Here is the chart with offshore wind. Oh gee it is the same as coal:

[markslawson + 1,057]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Should I cancel my vacation plans for Britain because of this energy disaster?

Of course not - much of the commentary would be over the top and the tourist hot spots would still be open, ready to fleece tourists. However, the cost of power is a real problem just now. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

4 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Here is the chart with offshore wind. Oh gee it is the same as coal:

Nope, still won't let you get away with it.. Sure a financial group with extensive involvement in renewable energy has produced a LCOE that seems to indicate that offshore wind is as cost effective as coal - bbbbbwwwwwhahahahaha - and you believed it? Considering the troubles the UK is having with offshore wind at the moment, this is not a good time to start waving around studies saying that reality is wrong. And, of course, as we have previously discussed, there are still the huge problems of balancing costs and network connections. I'll start another thread on this soon but really, by now you should no better. Leave it with you.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

44 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Nope, still won't let you get away with it.. Sure a financial group with extensive involvement in renewable energy has produced a LCOE that seems to indicate that offshore wind is as cost effective as coal - bbbbbwwwwwhahahahaha - and you believed it? Considering the troubles the UK is having with offshore wind at the moment, this is not a good time to start waving around studies saying that reality is wrong. And, of course, as we have previously discussed, there are still the huge problems of balancing costs and network connections. I'll start another thread on this soon but really, by now you should no better. Leave it with you.

Oh no, another thread threat. Mark you are making an open fool of yourself. 

If you have evidence for something then post it. Meanwhile you are looking absolutely desperate as all your positions are imploding.

UK’s Offshore Wind Pipeline Closing In on 100 GW

Josh Guerrlich

Total Views: 1833 

June 13, 2023

The United Kingdom’s offshore wind pipeline is approaching the 100 gigawatt (GW) mark, according to UK-based trade association RenewableUK, as the global pipeline now tops 1.23 terawatts (TW) of wind energy capacity.

At 98 GW, the UK’s offshore wind pipeline is second in the world only to China, which has a pipeline of 157 GW. The United States comes in third with 82 GW, and Sweden and Brazil round out the top five. 

The pipeline includes projects at every stage of development, including operational, under construction, consented or planned.

 

ADVERTISEMENT

Edited July 6, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

https://grid.iamkate.com/

As at 2.30 BST the price is minus £151.23/MWh with emissions only 81g/KWh

Thats with over 50% powergen coming from renewables and only 14% coming from NG

Yesterday it was £48.37/MWh with the majority being renewables!

Mark why do you continue to spout lies about UK renewables being expensive?? They are ridiculously cheap!

Also yes the UK imports around 40-50% of its NG mainly from Norway, but those imports represents approximately 5GW of powergen out of 30GW per day the UK uses, so its no big deal is it?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Rob Plant