Swiss new hydroplant

[specinho + 467]

Reading the comments on facebook, realized this technology existed for half to near one century. It must be working well. Pioneers have always been the smartest, most thoughtful, with sustainable foresight in mind, without being taught by schools.....

Over the decades, climate change might have been in the mind of many. Therefore, a quick image over the landscape might have shown the following potential risks:

1. The area is hilly, near barren with moss cover, relying 
most probably on melted snow in the area? 

Since this is an opened system, would there be a need to consider
a) what if there is no snow cover for a few years? 
e.g. mount kinabalu ( ht > 4000 m) , 2008.

b) what if there is no rain or draught? 

How resilient could we design it to be withstanding the possible risks? 

2. Someone mentioned 2 units energy generated but 5 units energy needed to pump water back up.....

What if the design is in passive form that enables natural water flow?

For example, if the direction of water flow without the hydroplant is from lower reservoir to meet the flow of higher one further down the lake, could there be a way to:
a) back flow water from high reservoir to low in passive mode

b) water released from lower reservoir generates electricity.

c) water flow from lower reservoir meet the flow of higher reservoir ahead, returning water back to higher reservoir passively.

If a lake has no flow, would the water be channeled back to the bottom of higher reservoir passively a possibility? 

I'm not familiar with the location. Just a thought from the concerns raised by past comments.

Edited November 21, 2023 by specinho

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

 

1 hour ago, specinho said:

water flow from lower reservoir meet the flow of higher reservoir ahead, returning water back to higher reservoir passively.

How does this happen then without pumping it back to the top reservoir? Do you have an anti-gravity solution that the world is waiting for?

This is just normal pumped storage!

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:52 PM, specinho said:

Reading the comments on facebook, realized this technology existed for half to near one century. It must be working well. Pioneers have always been the smartest, most thoughtful, with sustainable foresight in mind, without being taught by schools..

Out of curiosity I looked up electricity production in Switzerland.. this is an excerpt

Domestically, electricity is mainly produced using hydropower (62%), nuclear power (29%), and renewables-driven and conventional thermal power plants (9%). While Switzerland exports surpluses in the summer, it has to import roughly the same amount of electricity in the winter months.

There didn't seem to be much new in the material you looked at. It's a water battery of the type being being built in a lot of places. There are a plenty of problems with the concept but to date those things remain the only practical means of storing enough power to make any real difference on a major grid. Batteries don't count.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

On 11/21/2023 at 1:19 AM, Rob Plant said:

 

How does this happen then without pumping it back to the top reservoir? Do you have an anti-gravity solution that the world is waiting for?

This is just normal pumped storage!

Now your getting it! Just another day in Green Paradise.

[specinho + 467]

On 11/24/2023 at 8:04 AM, markslawson said:

Out of curiosity I looked up electricity production in Switzerland.. this is an excerpt

Domestically, electricity is mainly produced using hydropower (62%), nuclear power (29%), and renewables-driven and conventional thermal power plants (9%). While Switzerland exports surpluses in the summer, it has to import roughly the same amount of electricity in the winter months.

There didn't seem to be much new in the material you looked at. It's a water battery of the type being being built in a lot of places. There are a plenty of problems with the concept but to date those things remain the only practical means of storing enough power to make any real difference on a major grid. Batteries don't count.

 

On 11/21/2023 at 5:19 PM, Rob Plant said:

 

How does this happen then without pumping it back to the top reservoir? Do you have an anti-gravity solution that the world is waiting for?

This is just normal pumped storage!

On 11/21/2023 at 5:19 PM, Rob Plant said:

 

The suggestion intends to overcome possible problems mentioned. Draft one image  below for discussion:

Initial idea:

Generate electricity from higher reservoir and pump water from lower reservoir back to higher to refill...

 

Improvised suggestion:

1. Generate electricity from lower reservoir

 2. Let water flow passively 

a) from higher reservoir to the lower to refill

b) from lower reservoir to the bottom of higher reservoir after passing through turbine...

3. In addition:

a) As long as there is flowing water, a floating generator can be used to harvest letric for hundreds to thousand of homes.

Saw it in a project i nearly volunteer to help in for a  remote village many years ago. It is called micro- hydro letric. 

I designed one to save letric bill of nearly half a million for a resort using readily available facilities or structure i.e.

i) ornamental manmade waterfall

ii) water fall for water park

iii) incoming large volume of water from big metal pipe 

P/s: but i was not successful in making it happened.

 

b) If water freezes on the surface only, (~ 50cm thick of ice?), a closed loop of water flow can possibly be created below the freezing depth where water is at its densest or at 4'C... Letric supply during winter could probably be supplemented. 

 

c) since that location is nearly barren, and reservoir relying possibly on melted snow......wondering if modification can be made somewhere around the landscape so that a manmade water catchment area can be created?

For example, modify soil to plant pine trees or any other suitable ones.

This modification aims to create a localized water cycle. In other words, encourages formation and catchment of rainwater in that area. Hopefully, the rain will fall or drained into the reservoir as back up... 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by specinho

[markslawson + 1,057]

14 hours ago, specinho said:

from lower reservoir to the bottom of higher reservoir after passing through turbine...

Look, sorry, but I don't think you quite understand what you're saying. How can you let water flow from the top of a lower reservoir to the bottom of a higher reservoir? .... Oh I get what you're trying to say. You want the water to simply flow back into the upper reservoir naturally, taking some energy in the process, without using energy to pump it back. What you're suggesting is a perpetual motion machine - or maybe to be kinder one that greatly reduces the inefficiency of the usual means of storing power by this method. However, it still works out to getting energy for nothing. Go back and look at your own diagram. You want to let water flow to the bottom of a reservoir where the receiving end is under pressure. Good luck with that but I don't think the standard way of building these projects is going to change any time soon.

[specinho + 467]

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

Look, sorry, but I don't think you quite understand what you're saying. How can you let water flow from the top of a lower reservoir to the bottom of a higher reservoir? .... Oh I get what you're trying to say. You want the water to simply flow back into the upper reservoir naturally, taking some energy in the process, without using energy to pump it back. What you're suggesting is a perpetual motion machine - or maybe to be kinder one that greatly reduces the inefficiency of the usual means of storing power by this method. However, it still works out to getting energy for nothing. Go back and look at your own diagram. You want to let water flow to the bottom of a reservoir where the receiving end is under pressure. Good luck with that but I don't think the standard way of building these projects is going to change any time soon.

🤔 Thank you for the thought.... Water pressure at the bottom..... Similar condition when water from high reservoir is flowing towards the bottom of lower reservoir after turning turbine. 

I' m not sure about the height of each reservoir involved. May be the flow from lower reservoir would meet the higher reservoir in the middle?

Or shorter flow distance that sustains the water force after turning turbine from potential height or from wide to narrow tunnel that enables it?

If they do not test run a model on it, old problems will always be bugging the old system. 

A small model of it can probably be built in a day? 

I have no qualm on why they are willing to spend 14 billions, that used to be hundreds of million, to built something with known existing problems. 

Just a thought on improvising those problems so that problems won't be repeated to a point of not sustainable. 

Those engineers might not even have a chance to read this or know what we are discussing....

 

 

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

21 hours ago, specinho said:

I' m not sure about the height of each reservoir involved. May be the flow from lower reservoir would meet the higher reservoir in the middle?

What I think you'll find is that the height of the water in the upper reservoir that matters so that the water would flow from the top reservoir to the bottom no matter what. Interesting thought I guess but time to move on.