notsonice + 1,255 DM February 18 On 2/16/2024 at 10:50 PM, frankfurter said: agree. definitely, the people at Toyota know infinitely more than you. consider: burning NH3 will result in increased levels of N, NO, nitromethane, and other N compounds in the atmosphere. N destroys Ozone, which will destroy our planet much faster than CO2. N by itself kills all life forms: CO2 does not. N destroys Ozone????? Nitrogen in the atmosphere is present as N2 gas not in the elemental form N destroys Ozone ?????? it does not destroy Ozone and Nitrogen gas (N2) does not kill all forms of life....unless you are in an oxygen free environment our Atmosphere is 79 percent Nitrogen Gas (N2)......hmmm and we all survive N2 does not react with Oxygen in the atmosphere N by itself kills all life forms???? BS babble Creation of NH3 removes N2 gas from the atmosphere....buring NH3 puts N2 gas back into the atmosphere NH3 is not a greenhouse gas use of Ammonia in an internal combustion engines requires a catalytic converter to control NO emissions no different than the requirement to use Catalytic converters on all ICE engines today burning NH3 will result in increased levels of NO, nitromethane, and other N compounds in the atmosphere without a catalytic converter no one is proposing use of NH3 fuels without Catalytic converters so your babbling is just that, BS babble N destroys Ozone, which will destroy our planet much faster than CO2???? BS babble However, excess nitrogen in the environment in a reactive form – which comes from the use of synthetic fertilizers, the discharge of wastewater or the combustion of fossil fuels – is a hazard, polluting land, water and air. It also exacerbates climate change and depletes the ozone layer. Are you calling for a ban on the burning or combustion of fossil fuels without catalytic converters?????? or the use of fertilizers?????? BRAVO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,009 GE February 18 12 hours ago, notsonice said: N destroys Ozone????? Nitrogen in the atmosphere is present as N2 gas not in the elemental form Technically, we consider N2 gas the elemental form (zero enthalpy of formation). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM February 19 9 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Technically, we consider N2 gas the elemental form (zero enthalpy of formation). N2 is not an element.....not sure who is we...... Nitrogen in nature is found as a diatomic molecule and is not found in its elemental form I would never consider the diatomic molecule to be the same as the elemental form of Nitrogen and never consider N2 gas the elemental form of Nitrogen just because N2 is relatively stable and considered relatively inert in that form does not mean N2 (the molecule) is inert or N2 is stable in an absolute sense When Nitrogen combines with Oxygen it does it as one atom of Nitrogen (elemental form ) IE the molecular bond of N2 is first broken Ever hear of N2O ....nope you have NO and NOx....so these molecules are of Nitrogen in its elemental form (one atom of Nitrogen ) with Oxygen...How does that N2 get to NO...........not a one step reaction the problem with N2 is it loves to form (through intermediate reactions) Nitrous Oxides and some of these are stable ...IE why you use catalytic converters to get rid of the Nitrous Oxides formed on N2 reactions with CO2 O2 and CO and all of the other species present at high temps just because N2 exists as the predominate species in nature does not mean it is in its elemental form Next time you look at the periodic table with is a table of the elements (periodic) see if it has N2 on it............ N2 is the predominate compound of the element in nature as you do not find N is nature in its elemental form I would never consider N2 to be an element.......or the elemental form of Nitrogen next time use the word I instead of We i will give you a simple nitrogen reaction with hydrogen ......... reaction with hydrogen with heating (from 500 ᵒC or 932 ᵒF and higher depending on the requirements for the speed of reaction and output), high pressure (around 350 atmospheres) and in the presence of a catalyst (for example, Fe or FeO): N₂ + 3H₂ = 2NH₃; note the presence of the Catalyst Fe the reaction above skips all the intermediate steps of N2 ending up as N in the molecule 2NH₃...Just easy to write it as above and you take for granted it is the whole shebang I did my grad research on Metal Catalysts (specifically heavy metal catalytic's that drive reactions) and make a fortune in plants and refineries that employ metal Catalysts (they are used everywhere....) during the research we (professor and I) had to take into account Nitrogen side reactions so we switched to using Helium as the purging gas in the reactors........Pesky N2 did cause some noise electrochemically and enough noise that it could screw up results. Easier to pay the extra money for Helium run the tests again........we then compared the results and knew how much N2 induced noise was present....... I got into the intermediate steps .....so a good knowledge of how catalysts work on a elemental level (surface level and a few atoms away into the gas or liquid zone and solid state ...(.Metal/ metal interactions and the effect on the reactions occurring in the solid/gas solid/liquid zones) Ie on the cathode/anodes as most reactions are electrochemical in nature with intermediate steps occurring on either or both cathodes or anodes surfaces and the Catalysts way too often chemists on every level ignore the intermediate steps and have no clue on what drives reactions. The chemists I deal with have no clue on the presence of other heavy metals in reactors that can really screw up what your are trying to achieve in the reactor.....and I get a fat check......... I take it your level of chemistry has always ignored the intermediate steps and side reactions (many of them unwanted) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,009 GE February 19 (edited) 40 minutes ago, notsonice said: N2 is not an element.....not sure who is we...... Nitrogen in nature is found as a diatomic molecule and is not found in its elemental form I would never consider the diatomic molecule to be the same as the elemental form of Nitrogen and never consider N2 gas the elemental form of Nitrogen just because N2 is relatively stable and considered relatively inert in that form does not mean N2 (the molecule) is inert or N2 is stable in an absolute sense When Nitrogen combines with Oxygen it does it as one atom of Nitrogen (elemental form ) IE the molecular bond of N2 is first broken Ever hear of N2O ....nope you have NO and NOx....so these molecules are of Nitrogen in its elemental form (one atom of Nitrogen ) with Oxygen...How does that N2 get to NO...........not a one step reaction the problem with N2 is it loves to form (through intermediate reactions) Nitrous Oxides and some of these are stable ...IE why you use catalytic converters to get rid of the Nitrous Oxides formed on N2 reactions with CO2 O2 and CO and all of the other species present at high temps just because N2 exists as the predominate species in nature does not mean it is in its elemental form Next time you look at the periodic table with is a table of the elements (periodic) see if it has N2 on it............ N2 is the predominate compound of the element in nature as you do not find N is nature in its elemental form I would never consider N2 to be an element.......or the elemental form of Nitrogen next time use the word I instead of We i will give you a simple nitrogen reaction with hydrogen ......... reaction with hydrogen with heating (from 500 ᵒC or 932 ᵒF and higher depending on the requirements for the speed of reaction and output), high pressure (around 350 atmospheres) and in the presence of a catalyst (for example, Fe or FeO): N₂ + 3H₂ = 2NH₃; note the presence of the Catalyst Fe the reaction above skips all the intermediate steps of N2 ending up as N in the molecule 2NH₃...Just easy to write it as above and you take for granted it is the whole shebang I did my grad research on Metal Catalysts (specifically heavy metal catalytic's that drive reactions) and make a fortune in plants and refineries that employ metal Catalysts (they are used everywhere....) during the research we (professor and I) had to take into account Nitrogen side reactions so we switched to using Helium as the purging gas in the reactors........Pesky N2 did cause some noise electrochemically and enough noise that it could screw up results. Easier to pay the extra money for Helium run the tests again........we then compared the results and knew how much N2 induced noise was present....... I got into the intermediate steps .....so a good knowledge of how catalysts work on a elemental level (surface level and a few atoms away into the gas or liquid zone and solid state ...(.Metal/ metal interactions and the effect on the reactions occurring in the solid/gas solid/liquid zones) Ie on the cathode/anodes as most reactions are electrochemical in nature with intermediate steps occurring on either or both cathodes or anodes surfaces and the Catalysts way too often chemists on every level ignore the intermediate steps and have no clue on what drives reactions. The chemists I deal with have no clue on the presence of other heavy metals in reactors that can really screw up what your are trying to achieve in the reactor.....and I get a fat check......... I take it your level of chemistry has always ignored the intermediate steps and side reactions (many of them unwanted) The enthaply of formation of N2 is zero; "we" chemists do the math based off N2 like it or not (also O2, H2, etc.) Yes, I understand the periodic table and where atomic nitrogen sits, you really didn't need to use so many words to show your ignorance on the matter. I fully understand transition states and Hess law. You don't, otherwise you would know that all the thermodynamic calculations are based off elements in their reference state. Catalysts do not change the energy of a reaction, they only lower the energy of the transition state, thereby acceleration reactions. Do the actual math on your example reactions, you will find that you use N2, H2, and O2 in your calculations, not a nitrogen radical etc. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it less true. You can suggest that the vernacular used by chemists is wrong but that won't change reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_of_formation If you want help with the math just ask. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hess's_law "The law states that the total enthalpy change during the complete course of a chemical reaction is independent of the sequence of steps taken." Edited February 19 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM February 19 (edited) 19 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: The enthaply of formation of N2 is zero; "we" chemists do the math based off N2 like it or not (also O2, H2, etc.) Yes, I understand the periodic table and where atomic nitrogen sits, you really didn't need to use so many words to show your ignorance on the matter. Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it less true. You can suggest that the vernacular used by chemists is wrong but that won't change reality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_of_formation "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." we lol again use the word I .... do not include me in your class of chemists I consider most chemists that I meet as being ignorant.........they get their BS in Chemistry and are academics at heart... They are good at doing routine lab test work........ In the field , at least when I get involved, the "We " Chemists are clueless on Chemistry...they tout their academic bla bla bla then they show me calculations yet they are unable to figure out what is going wrong as they are unable to get past their academics Best place for most chemists are as Government Employees...safe place for them in the real world most chemists are clueless my ignorance...... ha ha ha yet I do very well with my ignorance.... ha ha ha back to the subject at hand ....it was Ammonia.........great on paper ....in use as a fuel ....not so great pesky nitrogen in the ammonia likes to form Nitrous Oxides when combusted.......so much for your bla bla bla on its elemental form and your math PS now tell me once again how your twin brother the Big E is doing??? did he get over his mental breakdown that he suffered on this forum????? PS later I got to get a proposal out for a facility that is real screwed up......... pesky heavy metals in their reactors Edited February 19 by notsonice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,009 GE February 19 (edited) 14 minutes ago, notsonice said: then they show me calculations yet they are unable to figure out what is going wrong as they are unable to get past their academic Just do the math on those examples for me, or at least try. Show your work. The difference between me and people full of BS is I can back up my position. You attacking some fictional government employee as some sort of rebuttal is funny (multiple logic failures, try to name them). Chemists are not engineers by the way, if your process is screwed up the problem is not their math or their chemistry, it is your inability to apply the chemistry. Edited February 19 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,009 GE February 19 (edited) 22 minutes ago, notsonice said: PS later I got to get a proposal out for a facility that is real screwed up......... pesky heavy metals in their reactors Yeah, so they put dirty reagents into the reaction vessel, what do you expect? Garbage in garbage out. Next time clean up the inputs so you don't foul the catalysts. If the cat is something cheap like a zeolite just tell them to replace it and do better next time. Edited February 19 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff February 19 On 2/18/2024 at 4:32 PM, notsonice said: N destroys Ozone????? Nitrogen in the atmosphere is present as N2 gas not in the elemental form N destroys Ozone ?????? it does not destroy Ozone and Nitrogen gas (N2) does not kill all forms of life....unless you are in an oxygen free environment our Atmosphere is 79 percent Nitrogen Gas (N2)......hmmm and we all survive N2 does not react with Oxygen in the atmosphere N by itself kills all life forms???? BS babble Creation of NH3 removes N2 gas from the atmosphere....buring NH3 puts N2 gas back into the atmosphere NH3 is not a greenhouse gas use of Ammonia in an internal combustion engines requires a catalytic converter to control NO emissions no different than the requirement to use Catalytic converters on all ICE engines today burning NH3 will result in increased levels of NO, nitromethane, and other N compounds in the atmosphere without a catalytic converter no one is proposing use of NH3 fuels without Catalytic converters so your babbling is just that, BS babble N destroys Ozone, which will destroy our planet much faster than CO2???? BS babble However, excess nitrogen in the environment in a reactive form – which comes from the use of synthetic fertilizers, the discharge of wastewater or the combustion of fossil fuels – is a hazard, polluting land, water and air. It also exacerbates climate change and depletes the ozone layer. Are you calling for a ban on the burning or combustion of fossil fuels without catalytic converters?????? or the use of fertilizers?????? BRAVO https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306630/ only a dickhead like you would argue against such papers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,255 DM February 19 5 hours ago, frankfurter said: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306630/ only a dickhead like you would argue against such papers. awwww you are now into name calling...... does it make you feel big???? I can tell that you are not very well schooled in anything...and your real world experiences in the Chemical Biz ????? My bet Nada argue against such papers....?????? WTF are you babbling about now????? You seem confused as usual........ PS how is life in your country today????? going well???....ha ha ha ha The great China-Russian partnership paying off?????? ha ha ha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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