Bolsonaro Wins in Brazil

2 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Heck no, you are far better than I am at dissecting and deconstructing assorted narratives. All I would suggest is to keep questioning and poking around intellectually, you seem pretty skilled at it.

I'll take that as a high compliment.  Thank you. 

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55 minutes ago, mthebold said:

My background is not in sociology; do you see anything about my perspective I could improve? 

You publicly show a willingness to learn, to see things from other's perspectives, and to discuss, and those are admirable traits that not everyone is capable of showing, at least not in public.  ALL of these qualities, in order to work, require constant self-appraisal.  So I would suggest that we all endeavor to keep our eyes and ears and, most importantly our brains, open to new information and learn all we can.

Just yesterday, my wife and I faced an, albeit minor, emotionally charged situation (we had a spat!) and if I had not stopped and considered her perspective, it would have ended at a much higher, unnecessary level.  And if I had thrown a label at her it would have all gone down the tubes.  Thankfully, and to some degree because of the reflections of individuals on this site, including yours, I was actually able to step back emotionally and find a brighter path.

Have a great day, everyone.

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55 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

You publicly show a willingness to learn, to see things from other's perspectives, and to discuss, and those are admirable traits that not everyone is capable of showing, at least not in public.  ALL of these qualities, in order to work, require constant self-appraisal.  So I would suggest that we all endeavor to keep our eyes and ears and, most importantly our brains, open to new information and learn all we can.

Just yesterday, my wife and I faced an, albeit minor, emotionally charged situation (we had a spat!) and if I had not stopped and considered her perspective, it would have ended at a much higher, unnecessary level.  And if I had thrown a label at her it would have all gone down the tubes.  Thankfully, and to some degree because of the reflections of individuals on this site, including yours, I was actually able to step back emotionally and find a brighter path.

Have a great day, everyone.

Glad I could help.  

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21 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I suspect there is a major difference in what people consider left/right in different parts of the world. From a post-totalitarian perspective, the U.S Democratic party is so far from left it's funny when someone calls them left. Perhaps things are similar with Bolsonaro although I did come across a quote from him regarding his views on gays that smacked of yes, far-right in its suggestion of utmost intolerance these days more typical of the far-left, which to me are all those radicals who have well and truly forgotten the original idea of leveling the playing field not just for a select few marginalized groups but for, I don't know, everyone. So, Tom, I don't really care if MSM use the term far-left. I certainly do.

Half of America seems to follow the Constitution of The United States of America and use it as a reference point to what government should stand for. The other half seems to ignore the Constitution unless it is convenient for them. The abuse of the meaning of the word liberal is another problem. Classical liberalism was open minded and full of ideas of all kinds. Modern leftists who consider themselves liberal are actually authoritarians who think that everyone must agree with them or they are damnable deplorables who do not deserve free speech. Europe has already given up on religious and some other forms of free speech. You can be thrown in jail for criticizing Islam. The tactics of the left in America can be seen in the many ways the Obama Administration corrupted the American government and the prepared attacks made on President Trump after he defeated Hillary Clinton.The lowest tactics are not too low for leftists. The American left has no objection to communist totalitarian governments as in China. They just want to get rich doing business with them. 

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Ahhh, don't even get me started on linguistic abuse. The consequences can be so far-reaching and so horrible it's crazy so few people even stop to think about it. We'll eventually bring ourselves to a point where anything you disagree with you could call hate speech and demand legal responsibility from the culprit.

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I am not sure if it is wise to start a semi political discussion, but I read a things I need to comment on. 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Classical liberalism was open minded and full of ideas of all kinds

Ideologically and economically classical liberalism was ideology of the republican party, right? An ideology based on many of the same ideas as the American constitution was based on, right? 

Have you considered that the American rigth have also strayed a long ways from their original true ideas? Or is that justified because it is just a reaction to Obama and Hillary? 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Europe has already given up on religious and some other forms of free speech. You can be thrown in jail for criticizing Islam

Where in Europe? Real examples please. 

 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

prepared attacks made on President Trump after he defeated Hillary Clinton

which attacks. Serious question. 

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26 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Ahhh, don't even get me started on linguistic abuse. The consequences can be so far-reaching and so horrible it's crazy so few people even stop to think about it. We'll eventually bring ourselves to a point where anything you disagree with you could call hate speech and demand legal responsibility from the culprit.

Agree. 

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9 hours ago, mthebold said:

Responding to both of these: everything has a frame, even when that frame isn't conscious or intentional.  Framing is an inevitable consequence of people experiencing certain things, talking to certain people, and arriving at certain opinions.  Even the idea of "framing" is just a frame we use to think about thinking.

Framing is a tool, and any tool can be used benevolently or maliciously.  The left's innovation was weaponizing it.  Hence, the sometimes absurd accusations of racism, reflexive character assassination, and attempts to control public opinion through emotion. Frame something in a particular way, and facts don't matter.  I claim the left has weaponized framing because the average leftist I meet refuses to acknowledge any re-framing I provide.  It's not that they disagree with the re-framing; it's that they refuse to acknowledge it entirely.  Anything outside their preferred frame is treated as heretical - and those who hold differing frames are vilified.  

The Right obviously has frames - and no doubt there are people in industry & government who abuse this fact - but the average rightist I've met at least acknowledges alternative frames.  Even the more extreme rightists I've met will listen, think about my frame, and offer honest thoughts.  Even more telling: most rightists I've met never intentionally studied rhetorical tools.  Instead, they learned practical skills, discuss their area of expertise - business, engineering, skilled trades, their community, etc - and present a frame that reflects their reality as they understand it.  They use frames as frames were intended: as a tool for understanding.

To summarize: in my personal experience, leftists choose a conclusion, study rhetoric, and debate to win. They view and use framing as a weapon.  The average rightist studies something practical, observe the world around them, and presents their frame with intent to discuss.  Rightists are trained workers; leftists are trained manipulators.  I can hold honest discussions with rightists; I usually can't with leftists.  

What I find interesting is that Trump is a response to the left's machinations. I watched for eight years as the left became more emboldened, eventually refusing to listen.  When they thought political victory was assured, they happily trampled on those they disagreed with.  Industries were attacked, poor people were labeled "deplorables", and any disagreement was met with character assassination.  After all that, some of the most reasonable people I've ever met finally said "F*** it!" and voted for Trump.  What choice did they have? 

We now find ourselves in an interesting situation: otherwise decent human beings are ignoring Trump's lies, machinations, mistreatment of women, and generally repulsive nature.  He's a terrible human being, they know it, and they don't care.  All that matters is winning.  Trump is the right's decision to fight fire with fire.  

The silver lining on all this is that it's destroying Washington's reputation.  There's a small chance people will embrace smaller federal government & states rights, which would return us to the Constitution's intent.  

Further reading, if you're interested in how Trump fights fire with fire.

Very well written and argued. 

To me it seems like a chicken and egg discussion and further to be honest it seems like Trump brought a cannon to a knife fight. Although I guess that it could be argued that, that is a matter of perspective... 

 

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@Rasmus Jorgensen, I'll take the liberty of answering one of your questions to @ronwagn: The European Court of Human Rights recently overthrew an appeal by an Austrian academic accused and sentenced for insulting Islam. Here, from the WSJ.

While far from being religious, I don't condone this sort of one-sided tolerance on the part of European governments and institutions. Let me also throw in a German politician's suggestions Germans should start learning Arabic and studying the Koran to make the assimilation of refugees smoother, which made me question this person's grasp of the word "assimilation".

If someone doesn't stop me soon I'll go into first-hand impressions from the Balkans and Denmark and musings on why the multicultural model is not working and is now backfiring. It has nothing to do with Brazil, however, so I'd better stop myself. :)

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1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Ahhh, don't even get me started on linguistic abuse. The consequences can be so far-reaching and so horrible it's crazy so few people even stop to think about it. We'll eventually bring ourselves to a point where anything you disagree with you could call hate speech and demand legal responsibility from the culprit.

 

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Or a bit more amusingly

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😂 Hilarious from a distance but sadly increasingly true in some parts of the world. Which is why I'm considering eastern Siberia for when things get really bad.

 

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2 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Which is why I'm considering eastern Siberia for when things get really bad.

Handy prep guide(I'm being un-serious and tongue in cheek here.)

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28 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

@Rasmus Jorgensen, I'll take the liberty of answering one of your questions to @ronwagn: The European Court of Human Rights recently overthrew an appeal by an Austrian academic accused and sentenced for insulting Islam. Here, from the WSJ.

While far from being religious, I don't condone this sort of one-sided tolerance on the part of European governments and institutions. Let me also throw in a German politician's suggestions Germans should start learning Arabic and studying the Koran to make the assimilation of refugees smoother, which made me question this person's grasp of the word "assimilation".

If someone doesn't stop me soon I'll go into first-hand impressions from the Balkans and Denmark and musings on why the multicultural model is not working and is now backfiring. It has nothing to do with Brazil, however, so I'd better stop myself. :)

Thanks. Seriously. I will read up on these in detail when I have some time. 

On the German politician - agree that his understanding of asssimilation could be better. That being said I also believe that any knowledge is good (and yes, that includes knowledge of the Koran). 

On your first hand impressions of the multi cultural model - I would actually rather that you share these. Think they would make for interesting reading. 

 

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All knowledge is power, I agree, as long as it is sought voluntarily. I'll share my impressions a bit later, I promise. Bit busy now. :)

 

55 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Handy prep guide(I'm being un-serious and tongue in cheek here.)

Oh, goodie! I'm also hoping for some zombies. They add, um, flavour to the Apocalypse.

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30 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Oh, goodie! I'm also hoping for some zombies. They add, um, flavour to the Apocalypse.

Marina, you know that I've already linked to the Zombie Apocalypse before.

And while I fully expect this week to be tumultuous (as I've commented before repeatedly) eventually there should be a calm after the storm.

 

bq-5be0fcfa11cf3.jpeg

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Now, don't crush my dreams, please. Things might turn out worse than I imagine!:)

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8 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Half of America seems to follow the Constitution of The United States of America and use it as a reference point to what government should stand for. The other half seems to ignore the Constitution unless it is convenient for them.

To wit: immediately following Kavanaugh's confirmation to the Supreme Court, there were serious calls to abolish it.  

It's the same with the constitution: American "liberals" label it outdated whenever they find it inconvenient.  The 2nd & 10th amendment, in particular, are ruthlessly attacked. Of course, they valiantly defend the 10th when it comes to legalized weed, CARB, and other liberal causes.  

And let's not forget the electoral college, the reasons for which they happily forget any time they win a popular vote. 

 

6 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Have you considered that the American rigth have also strayed a long ways from their original true ideas? Or is that justified because it is just a reaction to Obama and Hillary? 

Good question; the answer is "yes".  The "left" has become the Socialist Left: communism.  I.e. the marriage of state and poor.  Meanwhile, the "right" has become the Socialist Right: fascism.  I.e. the marriage of state and corporations.  If the 20th century is anything to go by, both are equally appalling and not to be tolerated. 

The socialization of both parties is how we ended up with Trump.  Of the options available, he was most likely to attack socialist policies on both sides.  We have a long way to go to achieve that though...

 

5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Very well written and argued. 

To me it seems like a chicken and egg discussion and further to be honest it seems like Trump brought a cannon to a knife fight. Although I guess that it could be argued that, that is a matter of perspective... 

 

Thank you; I appreciate the feedback.  

Having lived through Obama, I would say Trump brought a cannon to a cannon fight; he's just less subtle about it.  I mentioned earlier that liberals are trained manipulators; Obama is a case study in this.  He's an eloquent speaker, well thought of, and gives people the impression of professionalism.  Behind the scenes, however, he attacked industries, impoverished communities, and grabbed power wherever he could. 

When I want to know what's going on, I talk to people on the ground:  a coal executive (someone I've known my entire life, to avoid bias), the president of a small bank (again, someone I've known forever), ranchers, farmers, manufacturers in various industries, power plant engineers - anyone and everyone who can tell me what's happening in fact.  I didn't believe it at first, but as I talked to more people, the power grab became frightening.  Everything Obama did was an attempt to stamp out small business, stamp out conservative industries, bind the American economy to foreign nations, and consolidate power in Washington.  Trump is a reasonable & proportional response to the threat Obama & Co. pose. 

On that note, even a full-blown civil war would be a reasonable & proportional response to Obama's totalitarian policies.  

 

5 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

@Rasmus Jorgensen, I'll take the liberty of answering one of your questions to @ronwagn: The European Court of Human Rights recently overthrew an appeal by an Austrian academic accused and sentenced for insulting Islam. Here, from the WSJ.

While far from being religious, I don't condone this sort of one-sided tolerance on the part of European governments and institutions. Let me also throw in a German politician's suggestions Germans should start learning Arabic and studying the Koran to make the assimilation of refugees smoother, which made me question this person's grasp of the word "assimilation".

If someone doesn't stop me soon I'll go into first-hand impressions from the Balkans and Denmark and musings on why the multicultural model is not working and is now backfiring. It has nothing to do with Brazil, however, so I'd better stop myself. :)

I'd also love to hear your experiences & thoughts on the "multicultural model".  Can we create another thread for it? 

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4 hours ago, mthebold said:

On that note, even a full-blown civil war would be a reasonable & proportional response to Obama's totalitarian policies.  

Although is quite a while ago I seem to recall my American political history professor saying that most totalitarian president ever to sit in the white house was Abe Lincoln, although I guess my college years are pre-Obama...

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8 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

All knowledge is power, I agree, as long as it is sought voluntarily. I'll share my impressions a bit later, I promise. Bit busy now. :)

My oldest is 14. I do not give him a chance to say no thank you to knowledge... 

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4 hours ago, mthebold said:

Having lived through Obama, I would say Trump brought a cannon to a cannon fight; he's just less subtle about it.  I mentioned earlier that liberals are trained manipulators; Obama is a case study in this.  He's an eloquent speaker, well thought of, and gives people the impression of professionalism.  Behind the scenes, however, he attacked industries, impoverished communities, and grabbed power wherever he could. 

I would be interested to hear what you think Obama was the response to. Seriously. 

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1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Although is quite a while ago I seem to recall my American political history professor saying that most totalitarian president ever to sit in the white house was Abe Lincoln, although I guess my college years are pre-Obama...

Your professor wasn't wrong.  I've heard the claim that Lincoln had no intention of freeing the slaves, but chose to do so because it was to his advantage.  This claim implies that the point of contention leading to the American Civil War was states' rights.  Regardless of what transpired exactly, states' rights were certainly an issue. It's complicated though: civil rights, states' rights, and the need to compete in the world were all tangled into a single conflict.  In retrospect, it seems like something discourse & diplomacy could have solved more cheaply.  

58 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I would be interested to hear what you think Obama was the response to. Seriously. 

Discontent with war, rising national debt, failing inner cities, lingering civil rights issues, and shifting demographics from illegal immigration combined with the left's desire to help everyone allowed Obama to piece together a coalition of the discontented.  There's irony in most of that though: 
- The left complained most loudly about the wars, but it was the right who sent their sons to die. There was no draft.
- Failing inner cities is largely a result of leftist policies. Businesses left the hostile climates & broken education systems the left created.
- The illegal immigration leftists support depressed wages, increased poverty, and created an underclass of disenfranchised residents. This exacerbated the social problems leftists so loudly complain about.

I'd argue a few good things did come from Obama's administration though: 
- The US is truly growing tired of war - and it's about time.
- We made progress on civil rights, removing certain issues from the political table.  
- He got the ball rolling on legalized weed, which will be good for a number of reasons.  

In summary, some of gripes leading to Obama were legitimate, but much of it seems to have been engineered by the left to earn votes.  Without an impoverished, discontented base of voters, they'd have no power.  

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(edited)

12 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I am not sure if it is wise to start a semi political discussion, but I read a things I need to comment on. 

Ideologically and economically classical liberalism was ideology of the republican party, right? An ideology based on many of the same ideas as the American constitution was based on, right? 

Have you considered that the American rigth have also strayed a long ways from their original true ideas? Or is that justified because it is just a reaction to Obama and Hillary? 

Where in Europe? Real examples please. 

 

which attacks. Serious question. 

I am not an expert on classical liberalism but is definitely not what Democrats espouse. RINO (Republican In Name Only) would be guilty of straying from the Constitution and writings of the founder also. 

Obama and Hillary hid many of their beliefs early in their career. One example is that Hillary wrote her Masters thesis on Alinskyite tactics. Many of Obama's and Hillary's statements today are far more openly leftist. 

England has jailed people for having biblical verses on signs in their places of business. Holland has persecuted politicians for criticizing Islam. Germany has lied to its populace about the extent of Muslim immigrant crime and has not followed the wishes of its electorate. They are now paying the price. I could go on and on. I have hundreds of links on these things and thousands on related issues. Tens of thousands of links on over 225 topics. You can search them at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipd1YlcDaA_E9QtLhUXJBPiobFcRx1Rgipny9rOPJZE/edit

Critical information on the Trump and Hillary Investigations https://docs.google.com/document/d/1choW_wq0D5DfjRPjqLlAkfxCnnVJhRzrHeXppE6D4E8/edit

Europe https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TZsn83XNk680GCDtoabeYhH7qefzXqjxvIFObWKsbB0/edit

Conservatism Around the World https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twQ_yBtl-FPwhXf2mYA7qvGj1D8yts8El0m8nObWxuU/edit  (Using a broad definition of conservatism).

 

Edited by ronwagn
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22 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I am not an expert on classical liberalism but is definitely not what Democrats espouse. RINO (Republican In Name Only) would be guilty of straying from the Constitution and writings of the founder also. 

Obama and Hillary hid many of their beliefs early in their career. One example is that Hillary wrote her Masters thesis on Alinskyite tactics. Many of Obama's and Hillary's statements today are far more openly leftist. 

England has jailed people for having biblical verses on signs in their places of business. Holland has persecuted politicians for criticizing Islam. Germany has lied to its populace about the extent of Muslim immigrant crime and has not followed the wishes of its electorate. They are now paying the price. I could go on and on. I have hundreds of links on these things and thousands on related issues. Tens of thousands of links on over 225 topics. You can search them at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipd1YlcDaA_E9QtLhUXJBPiobFcRx1Rgipny9rOPJZE/edit

 Critical information on the Trump and Hillary Investigations https://docs.google.com/document/d/1choW_wq0D5DfjRPjqLlAkfxCnnVJhRzrHeXppE6D4E8/edit

Europe https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TZsn83XNk680GCDtoabeYhH7qefzXqjxvIFObWKsbB0/edit

 

Why is Europe doing this though?  What long-term advantage could there possibly be to allowing poor, uneducated, potentially violent immigrants into a developed nation?  

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Serious question : Do you all view the world from a zero-sum perspective?

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1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Serious question : Do you all view the world from a zero-sum perspective?

I know what a "zero-sum game" is, but what do you mean by "view the world from a zero-sum perspective"?  I'd like to be certain we agree on that definition before discussing further.  

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