Bolsonaro Wins in Brazil

I am not sure if it is wise to start a semi political discussion, but I read a things I need to comment on. 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Classical liberalism was open minded and full of ideas of all kinds

Ideologically and economically classical liberalism was ideology of the republican party, right? An ideology based on many of the same ideas as the American constitution was based on, right? 

Have you considered that the American rigth have also strayed a long ways from their original true ideas? Or is that justified because it is just a reaction to Obama and Hillary? 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Europe has already given up on religious and some other forms of free speech. You can be thrown in jail for criticizing Islam

Where in Europe? Real examples please. 

 

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

prepared attacks made on President Trump after he defeated Hillary Clinton

which attacks. Serious question. 

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26 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Ahhh, don't even get me started on linguistic abuse. The consequences can be so far-reaching and so horrible it's crazy so few people even stop to think about it. We'll eventually bring ourselves to a point where anything you disagree with you could call hate speech and demand legal responsibility from the culprit.

Agree. 

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9 hours ago, mthebold said:

Responding to both of these: everything has a frame, even when that frame isn't conscious or intentional.  Framing is an inevitable consequence of people experiencing certain things, talking to certain people, and arriving at certain opinions.  Even the idea of "framing" is just a frame we use to think about thinking.

Framing is a tool, and any tool can be used benevolently or maliciously.  The left's innovation was weaponizing it.  Hence, the sometimes absurd accusations of racism, reflexive character assassination, and attempts to control public opinion through emotion. Frame something in a particular way, and facts don't matter.  I claim the left has weaponized framing because the average leftist I meet refuses to acknowledge any re-framing I provide.  It's not that they disagree with the re-framing; it's that they refuse to acknowledge it entirely.  Anything outside their preferred frame is treated as heretical - and those who hold differing frames are vilified.  

The Right obviously has frames - and no doubt there are people in industry & government who abuse this fact - but the average rightist I've met at least acknowledges alternative frames.  Even the more extreme rightists I've met will listen, think about my frame, and offer honest thoughts.  Even more telling: most rightists I've met never intentionally studied rhetorical tools.  Instead, they learned practical skills, discuss their area of expertise - business, engineering, skilled trades, their community, etc - and present a frame that reflects their reality as they understand it.  They use frames as frames were intended: as a tool for understanding.

To summarize: in my personal experience, leftists choose a conclusion, study rhetoric, and debate to win. They view and use framing as a weapon.  The average rightist studies something practical, observe the world around them, and presents their frame with intent to discuss.  Rightists are trained workers; leftists are trained manipulators.  I can hold honest discussions with rightists; I usually can't with leftists.  

What I find interesting is that Trump is a response to the left's machinations. I watched for eight years as the left became more emboldened, eventually refusing to listen.  When they thought political victory was assured, they happily trampled on those they disagreed with.  Industries were attacked, poor people were labeled "deplorables", and any disagreement was met with character assassination.  After all that, some of the most reasonable people I've ever met finally said "F*** it!" and voted for Trump.  What choice did they have? 

We now find ourselves in an interesting situation: otherwise decent human beings are ignoring Trump's lies, machinations, mistreatment of women, and generally repulsive nature.  He's a terrible human being, they know it, and they don't care.  All that matters is winning.  Trump is the right's decision to fight fire with fire.  

The silver lining on all this is that it's destroying Washington's reputation.  There's a small chance people will embrace smaller federal government & states rights, which would return us to the Constitution's intent.  

Further reading, if you're interested in how Trump fights fire with fire.

Very well written and argued. 

To me it seems like a chicken and egg discussion and further to be honest it seems like Trump brought a cannon to a knife fight. Although I guess that it could be argued that, that is a matter of perspective... 

 

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@Rasmus Jorgensen, I'll take the liberty of answering one of your questions to @ronwagn: The European Court of Human Rights recently overthrew an appeal by an Austrian academic accused and sentenced for insulting Islam. Here, from the WSJ.

While far from being religious, I don't condone this sort of one-sided tolerance on the part of European governments and institutions. Let me also throw in a German politician's suggestions Germans should start learning Arabic and studying the Koran to make the assimilation of refugees smoother, which made me question this person's grasp of the word "assimilation".

If someone doesn't stop me soon I'll go into first-hand impressions from the Balkans and Denmark and musings on why the multicultural model is not working and is now backfiring. It has nothing to do with Brazil, however, so I'd better stop myself. :)

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1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Ahhh, don't even get me started on linguistic abuse. The consequences can be so far-reaching and so horrible it's crazy so few people even stop to think about it. We'll eventually bring ourselves to a point where anything you disagree with you could call hate speech and demand legal responsibility from the culprit.

 

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Or a bit more amusingly

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😂 Hilarious from a distance but sadly increasingly true in some parts of the world. Which is why I'm considering eastern Siberia for when things get really bad.

 

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2 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Which is why I'm considering eastern Siberia for when things get really bad.

Handy prep guide(I'm being un-serious and tongue in cheek here.)

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28 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

@Rasmus Jorgensen, I'll take the liberty of answering one of your questions to @ronwagn: The European Court of Human Rights recently overthrew an appeal by an Austrian academic accused and sentenced for insulting Islam. Here, from the WSJ.

While far from being religious, I don't condone this sort of one-sided tolerance on the part of European governments and institutions. Let me also throw in a German politician's suggestions Germans should start learning Arabic and studying the Koran to make the assimilation of refugees smoother, which made me question this person's grasp of the word "assimilation".

If someone doesn't stop me soon I'll go into first-hand impressions from the Balkans and Denmark and musings on why the multicultural model is not working and is now backfiring. It has nothing to do with Brazil, however, so I'd better stop myself. :)

Thanks. Seriously. I will read up on these in detail when I have some time. 

On the German politician - agree that his understanding of asssimilation could be better. That being said I also believe that any knowledge is good (and yes, that includes knowledge of the Koran). 

On your first hand impressions of the multi cultural model - I would actually rather that you share these. Think they would make for interesting reading. 

 

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All knowledge is power, I agree, as long as it is sought voluntarily. I'll share my impressions a bit later, I promise. Bit busy now. :)

 

55 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Handy prep guide(I'm being un-serious and tongue in cheek here.)

Oh, goodie! I'm also hoping for some zombies. They add, um, flavour to the Apocalypse.

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30 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Oh, goodie! I'm also hoping for some zombies. They add, um, flavour to the Apocalypse.

Marina, you know that I've already linked to the Zombie Apocalypse before.

And while I fully expect this week to be tumultuous (as I've commented before repeatedly) eventually there should be a calm after the storm.

 

bq-5be0fcfa11cf3.jpeg

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Now, don't crush my dreams, please. Things might turn out worse than I imagine!:)

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4 hours ago, mthebold said:

On that note, even a full-blown civil war would be a reasonable & proportional response to Obama's totalitarian policies.  

Although is quite a while ago I seem to recall my American political history professor saying that most totalitarian president ever to sit in the white house was Abe Lincoln, although I guess my college years are pre-Obama...

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8 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

All knowledge is power, I agree, as long as it is sought voluntarily. I'll share my impressions a bit later, I promise. Bit busy now. :)

My oldest is 14. I do not give him a chance to say no thank you to knowledge... 

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4 hours ago, mthebold said:

Having lived through Obama, I would say Trump brought a cannon to a cannon fight; he's just less subtle about it.  I mentioned earlier that liberals are trained manipulators; Obama is a case study in this.  He's an eloquent speaker, well thought of, and gives people the impression of professionalism.  Behind the scenes, however, he attacked industries, impoverished communities, and grabbed power wherever he could. 

I would be interested to hear what you think Obama was the response to. Seriously. 

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(edited)

12 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I am not sure if it is wise to start a semi political discussion, but I read a things I need to comment on. 

Ideologically and economically classical liberalism was ideology of the republican party, right? An ideology based on many of the same ideas as the American constitution was based on, right? 

Have you considered that the American rigth have also strayed a long ways from their original true ideas? Or is that justified because it is just a reaction to Obama and Hillary? 

Where in Europe? Real examples please. 

 

which attacks. Serious question. 

I am not an expert on classical liberalism but is definitely not what Democrats espouse. RINO (Republican In Name Only) would be guilty of straying from the Constitution and writings of the founder also. 

Obama and Hillary hid many of their beliefs early in their career. One example is that Hillary wrote her Masters thesis on Alinskyite tactics. Many of Obama's and Hillary's statements today are far more openly leftist. 

England has jailed people for having biblical verses on signs in their places of business. Holland has persecuted politicians for criticizing Islam. Germany has lied to its populace about the extent of Muslim immigrant crime and has not followed the wishes of its electorate. They are now paying the price. I could go on and on. I have hundreds of links on these things and thousands on related issues. Tens of thousands of links on over 225 topics. You can search them at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipd1YlcDaA_E9QtLhUXJBPiobFcRx1Rgipny9rOPJZE/edit

Critical information on the Trump and Hillary Investigations https://docs.google.com/document/d/1choW_wq0D5DfjRPjqLlAkfxCnnVJhRzrHeXppE6D4E8/edit

Europe https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TZsn83XNk680GCDtoabeYhH7qefzXqjxvIFObWKsbB0/edit

Conservatism Around the World https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twQ_yBtl-FPwhXf2mYA7qvGj1D8yts8El0m8nObWxuU/edit  (Using a broad definition of conservatism).

 

Edited by ronwagn
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Serious question : Do you all view the world from a zero-sum perspective?

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3 hours ago, mthebold said:

Why is Europe doing this though?  What long-term advantage could there possibly be to allowing poor, uneducated, potentially violent immigrants into a developed nation?  

Exactly the same as here in America. Third world immigrants are much more needy and very likely (at least in the first and second generations) to vote for leftist/socialist policies. In the case of Muslims, they are mostly against Christianity and many leftist/socialists are also.They are both in favor of strict government control of the people also. A match made in hell IMO.

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3 hours ago, mthebold said:

Why is Europe doing this though?  What long-term advantage could there possibly be to allowing poor, uneducated, potentially violent immigrants into a developed nation?  

Astute question.

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2 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Serious question : Do you all view the world from a zero-sum perspective?

Certainly not. I have seen, during my life, how socialism is a one way street though. Once they take control they do everything they can to consolidate power and undermine the inner workings of the government to control all aspects of it. They also work with leftists throughout the establishment to keep control. They have used the CIA and State Department, the government employee unions, educators, the press etc. to solidify their position. 92% of stories about President Trump are negative even though half of the nation supports him. Not content with that they use Silicon Valley, California leftists to suppress the voices of conservatives.  It is a miracle that Trump was ever elected. 

 

 

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Far Right its what's required to beat the extreme left. no-one else had the power or popular vote to get rid of PT who have put Brasil in the hole we find ourselves in. The problem lies in when we think of right wing we tend to imagine the far right or the far left in first world countries, something completely different due to cheques and balances in that first worlds social situation. Unfortunately Brasil has a huge majority of uneducated people who cannot make a political decision in a "democracy" where you MUST vote, their lies the fertile ground for socialism (actually communism) to take roots. Offer someone a bag of rice and they will vote for you. Brasil has turned a right handed corner after years on a left hand roundabout where the country was robbed and the politicians (including the former president and PT leader Lula being Jailed) who spouted socialist promises were giving to the ignorant with one hand and robbing the country dry with the other, total Hypochracy. Jair Bolsanaro is the current required medication to treat the sick situation Brasil finds itself in. Should be interesting lets see...

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12 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My oldest is 14. I do not give him a chance to say no thank you to knowledge... 

Haha. Really? Any knowledge at all? You just cram it down his throat? I doubt that. I think I'll have to make a blog post about multiculturalism.

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(edited)

On 11/6/2018 at 9:24 PM, mthebold said:

Why is Europe doing this though?  What long-term advantage could there possibly be to allowing poor, uneducated, potentially violent immigrants into a developed nation?  

Its not poor uneducated potentially violent immigrants thought, you need to read a bit more widely. The majority of the immigrants from Syria were educated as they had the most to lose under ISIS plus they had the money to leave add in the population decline in Europe, as most of the world, and the best way to get your population up is migration. The violent part is because the younger ones have been brought up in countries that have women as second class citizens and they are having problems working out the change and that is a big problem in a very straight laced, christian, basically racist society such as Germany. Most of the tickboxes were good just the Islam bit that failed.

I should add as further proof of the selective immigration policy Europe continues to try to stop immigrants from Africa who have low education standards who bring nothing apart from an increase in population.

Edited by jaycee
added final point, also terrible typos later noticed

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The majority of Syrian refugees have gone back to Syria now, though. They are war refugees: war's over, they go back to rebuild their home, for which they have my utmost admiration. Millions who rode the "Syrian refugees" wave, though, are staying. They are not refugees and they are not going back.

@Rasmus Jorgensen, my blog post, as promised. I'd love to hear your perspective. I'm sure it will be quite different from mine, which is great for a fuller picture.

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1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

The majority of Syrian refugees have gone back to Syria now, though. They are war refugees: war's over, they go back to rebuild their home, for which they have my utmost admiration. Millions who rode the "Syrian refugees" wave, though, are staying. They are not refugees and they are not going back.

@Rasmus Jorgensen, my blog post, as promised. I'd love to hear your perspective. I'm sure it will be quite different from mine, which is great for a fuller picture.

Well written blog post, Marina.  Thanks!

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On 10/28/2018 at 11:41 PM, Marina Schwarz said:

They already are. But in this guy's case it may not be just a dramatic "far". I've come across some very, let's say, impressive quotes on gays, for example. But let's see how he fares. Obviously, the pendulum has swung again, like it did in Mexico, though in the opposite direction.

Marina, We should all take care to not believe everything we read these days. We had some episodes here which incensed most Brazilians, episodes from foreign newspapers and so called stars with political agendas. The Guardian newspaper jumping all over the "Faschist" president elect due to his back to basics family values. Roger Waters (Ex Pink Floyd) was touring in the middle of the election and was paid a sizeable sum of money to add a hashtag into his light show which was contra Jair Bolsanaro, he was very surprised with the reply from the crowd, unable to sing and feeling like an idiot, he had been played, but still continued to support the left until he was told to stop or risk being Jailed for crimes against the constitution during election periods. I personally was gutted as I had tickets to see him and ended up giving them away, embarrassed that a foreigner (I'm British) would come and start stirring up a political cauldron and then leave none the wiser. Brasilian politics is very confusing. We start with up to 40 parties from communist to hard line conservative all with the same agenda (more or less) and during the election period they all peddle there wears to the right crowd. So with a Left and a Right we have whats called the Centrao (Central) all of these central parties take1 to 4 % of the first round of the votes, the second term is decided by the two most voted parties during the first round. Then for 21 days  the two party go at it, but with support from the centrao who jump ship or board whichever ship will take them, suddenly there policies and values change, you can imagine what comes of this mish mash of charlatans. Bolsanaro came from nowhere and side swiped the PT (Partida Trabalista) -(Workers Party) even after being stabbed while on the electoral campaign, he conducted his whole second round from social media, as he had to be fitted with a colostomy bag and had several operations he was lucky to live.

Sorry to drag on so he won the election and will now have to lower his rhetoric and by political osmosis he will slowly drift to the Centrao, all the big talk is done to get elected, not new in any election world wide. One thing for sure Brasil cannot do any worse than the last 12 years of PT and the fraud and graft schemes which broke the state of Rio de Janeiro. Just today Petrobras announced a BRL$ 6 Billion profit for the quarter, the best results since 2012, I wonder why.

 

Im glad you started this topic and wished I had seen it earlier, Brasil will be an influential player in the Oil market as we move ahead, hopefully Petrobras will become privatised in the pure sense not the way it is at the moment, privatised when it suits the government by exporting crude and then buying it back which brings some of the highest price gas at the pump world wide. We are self sufficient in combustion derivatives due to LNG cars and Alcohol there's no reason to have such inflated gas prices and certainly no need to export Oil and then buy it back.

 

Okay I have said my piece, thanks again for starting this thread.

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