Hydrogen balloon still deflating

[markslawson + 1,058]

At the risk of annoying the many hydrogen-is-the-answer-to-everything brigade there has been further bad news on the hydrogen front. This is an article from the Australian Financial Review (down under Wall Street, my old newspaper). I can't link the article as it's behind a pay wall but I've cut and paste most of it. When Andrew Forrest says the sector is not growing as quickly as he hoped he probably means its been a disaster.... 

Big organisations like Fortescue, Cleanaway, Wesfarmers, Korea Zinc and the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria have been caught up in the collapse of the Australian division of a controversial US hydrogen vehicle manufacturer.

Hyzon Motors aimed to become the Tesla of hydrogen trucks when it listed on Nasdaq in July 2021, but has since lost 99 per cent of its value and is now making a low-ball offer to acquire its failed Australian subsidiary out of administration.

The collapse of Hyzon’s Australian subsidiary was triggered when the parent refused to extend financial support in July, and comes as the struggling US company is on track to exhaust its cash reserves within seven months at the current rate of spending.

The demise of Hyzon Motors Australia is the latest setback for the struggling hydrogen sector and comes after Fortescue chairman and hydrogen enthusiast Andrew Forrest conceded in July that the sector would not grow as quickly as he originally hoped.

It also comes after Fortescue-backed hydrogen plane developer Universal Hydrogen collapsed in the US in July after burning through almost $150 million of investor capital.

Hyzon had delivered 10 hydrogen buses to Fortescue and was also working on hydrogen-powered rubbish trucks for Cleanaway when its Australian subsidiary was placed in administration on July 11.

The subsidiary collapsed owing $29.9 million to its creditors, and the list of creditors included 45 local employees.

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

"Behind a paywall" means the authors want to get paid for their work.  You should respect that as you consider yourself an author.

As for the article so what?  Lots of startups fail in all industries. Lots of technologies fail on the first attempts.  If failures stopped people from trying we would not have airplanes.

 

 

[markslawson + 1,058]

8 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

As for the article so what?  Lots of startups fail in all industries. Lots of technologies fail on the first attempts.  If failures stopped people from trying we would not have airplanes.

It's just a section... you can quote sections. I also note you would not be so particular if it was in favour of hydrogen. As for your point, sure there are failures in any industry but it is part of a trend where the H2 hype is shown for what it is, hype. H2 has its uses but as part of the energy cycle it is a non-starter and green propaganda should be exposed for the nonsense that it is...  

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

5 hours ago, markslawson said:

 I also note you would not be so particular if it was in favour of hydrogen.

Try to find some quotes of me supporting hydrogen.

I primarily am against air pollution (think PM2.5 not greenhouse gasses) from dirty fossil fuel sources like coal.

[markslawson + 1,058]

16 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

Try to find some quotes of me supporting hydrogen.

I primarily am against air pollution (think PM2.5 not greenhouse gasses) from dirty fossil fuel sources like coal.

Oh right ... okay, my apologies. Probably we should leave it at that...

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 8/24/2024 at 8:14 AM, markslawson said:

At the risk of annoying the many hydrogen-is-the-answer-to-everything brigade there has been further bad news on the hydrogen front. This is an article from the Australian Financial Review (down under Wall Street, my old newspaper). I can't link the article as it's behind a pay wall but I've cut and paste most of it. When Andrew Forrest says the sector is not growing as quickly as he hoped he probably means its been a disaster.... 

Big organisations like Fortescue, Cleanaway, Wesfarmers, Korea Zinc and the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria have been caught up in the collapse of the Australian division of a controversial US hydrogen vehicle manufacturer.

Hyzon Motors aimed to become the Tesla of hydrogen trucks when it listed on Nasdaq in July 2021, but has since lost 99 per cent of its value and is now making a low-ball offer to acquire its failed Australian subsidiary out of administration.

The collapse of Hyzon’s Australian subsidiary was triggered when the parent refused to extend financial support in July, and comes as the struggling US company is on track to exhaust its cash reserves within seven months at the current rate of spending.

The demise of Hyzon Motors Australia is the latest setback for the struggling hydrogen sector and comes after Fortescue chairman and hydrogen enthusiast Andrew Forrest conceded in July that the sector would not grow as quickly as he originally hoped.

It also comes after Fortescue-backed hydrogen plane developer Universal Hydrogen collapsed in the US in July after burning through almost $150 million of investor capital.

Hyzon had delivered 10 hydrogen buses to Fortescue and was also working on hydrogen-powered rubbish trucks for Cleanaway when its Australian subsidiary was placed in administration on July 11.

The subsidiary collapsed owing $29.9 million to its creditors, and the list of creditors included 45 local employees.

Mark youre becoming incredibly tedious with all of your BS, and refer to 1 tiny little poxy car company nobody has ever heard of!

Hydrogen Fuel - Q2 2024 Green Economy Outlook | J.P. Morgan (jpmorgan.com)

Have a read and learn something for a change!

Yes there are teething troubles with legislation approvals and tech in general in this sector, but huge advances have been achieved this year, and as Tailings Pond says if you dont keep improving tech we would never have developed aircraft or space travel.

For once try to have an open mind to the possibilities of its use not just what is wrong currently with it. You might find the experience enlightening!

 

[markslawson + 1,058]

12 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Have a read and learn something for a change!

Yes there are teething troubles with legislation approvals and tech in general in this sector, but huge advances have been achieved this year, and as Tailings Pond says if you dont keep improving tech we would never have developed aircraft or space travel.

For once try to have an open mind to the possibilities of its use not just what is wrong currently with it. You might find the experience enlightening!

Rob - instead of growling at me and quoting totally meaningless statistics - H2 is used extensively in industrial projects, I'm talking about its use in transport and power for which is it clearly completely unsuited - why don't you invest in the sector? You'll lose your money then have to take a second job and won't have time to for these posts. Better yet, join a university and teach students about the benefits of H2. You won't have to worry about reality. I've picked apart your 'statistics' before and made no impression. When H2 starts playing an actual, appreciable role in energy and transport then you can talk about people keeping an open mind. At present it has no role, nor is it likely to despite your statistics. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

11 hours ago, markslawson said:

Rob - instead of growling at me and quoting totally meaningless statistics - H2 is used extensively in industrial projects, I'm talking about its use in transport and power for which is it clearly completely unsuited - why don't you invest in the sector? You'll lose your money then have to take a second job and won't have time to for these posts. Better yet, join a university and teach students about the benefits of H2. You won't have to worry about reality. I've picked apart your 'statistics' before and made no impression. When H2 starts playing an actual, appreciable role in energy and transport then you can talk about people keeping an open mind. At present it has no role, nor is it likely to despite your statistics. 

Mark I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind!

The title of your thread is "hydrogen balloon still deflating" when I have shown you it isnt

I have several investments all doing exceptionally well thanks, in fact so well I am retiring this December at 55.

How about you?

Edited September 3 by Rob Plant

[Ron Wagner + 710]

On 8/24/2024 at 2:14 AM, markslawson said:

At the risk of annoying the many hydrogen-is-the-answer-to-everything brigade there has been further bad news on the hydrogen front. This is an article from the Australian Financial Review (down under Wall Street, my old newspaper). I can't link the article as it's behind a pay wall but I've cut and paste most of it. When Andrew Forrest says the sector is not growing as quickly as he hoped he probably means its been a disaster.... 

Big organisations like Fortescue, Cleanaway, Wesfarmers, Korea Zinc and the Royal Automobile Club of Victoria have been caught up in the collapse of the Australian division of a controversial US hydrogen vehicle manufacturer.

Hyzon Motors aimed to become the Tesla of hydrogen trucks when it listed on Nasdaq in July 2021, but has since lost 99 per cent of its value and is now making a low-ball offer to acquire its failed Australian subsidiary out of administration.

The collapse of Hyzon’s Australian subsidiary was triggered when the parent refused to extend financial support in July, and comes as the struggling US company is on track to exhaust its cash reserves within seven months at the current rate of spending.

The demise of Hyzon Motors Australia is the latest setback for the struggling hydrogen sector and comes after Fortescue chairman and hydrogen enthusiast Andrew Forrest conceded in July that the sector would not grow as quickly as he originally hoped.

It also comes after Fortescue-backed hydrogen plane developer Universal Hydrogen collapsed in the US in July after burning through almost $150 million of investor capital.

Hyzon had delivered 10 hydrogen buses to Fortescue and was also working on hydrogen-powered rubbish trucks for Cleanaway when its Australian subsidiary was placed in administration on July 11.

The subsidiary collapsed owing $29.9 million to its creditors, and the list of creditors included 45 local employees.

It is really stupid to go hydrogen when natural gas is far cheaper, is nearly as clean, and is already established as a dependable fuel, which is safer than hydrogen. It has fueling networks in many countries and is easily transportable by pipeline or truck, ship, rail, etc. when in the form of CNG. 

[Ron Wagner + 710]

On 9/3/2024 at 4:58 AM, Rob Plant said:

Mark I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind!

The title of your thread is "hydrogen balloon still deflating" when I have shown you it isnt

I have several investments all doing exceptionally well thanks, in fact so well I am retiring this December at 55.

How about you?

Why do you think it is preferable and competitive with natural gas and CNG? 

[Ron Wagner + 710]

On 9/3/2024 at 4:58 AM, Rob Plant said:

Mark I feel sorry for you having such a closed mind!

The title of your thread is "hydrogen balloon still deflating" when I have shown you it isnt

I have several investments all doing exceptionally well thanks, in fact so well I am retiring this December at 55.

How about you?

Well it sounds like a loser to me. I saw a hydrogen auto at the Pan Pacific Auditorium in Los Angeles in 1965. I was more impressed with the Wagoneer. It is still on the market today, though probably not for long as it is owned by Stellantis. 

Why do you think it is coming online so long. Natural gas has been used in vehicles since WW!. Today there are pipelines all over the world with natural gas and CNG can be easily transported by ships, trains, and trucks. 

Edited September 12 by Ron Wagner

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

8 hours ago, Ron Wagner said:

Well it sounds like a loser to me. I saw a hydrogen auto at the Pan Pacific Auditorium in Los Angeles in 1965. I was more impressed with the Wagoneer. It is still on the market today, though probably not for long as it is owned by Stellantis. 

Why do you think it is coming online so long. Natural gas has been used in vehicles since WW!. Today there are pipelines all over the world with natural gas and CNG can be easily transported by ships, trains, and trucks. 

Ron I have no problem with NG or CNG use and agree currently its the go to fuel in the transition.

However my point is to Mark (and others) not to dismiss other potential forms of energy and its uses just because its a fledgling industry.

To start a thread stating "hydrogen balloon still deflating" is not just misleading and totally incorrect when you consider the ramp up in investment year on year as I have shown in a previous post. It actually shows a degree of ignorance.

[Ron Wagner + 710]

I am aware of the ramp up and the money that is being wasted in the follow through on an unnecessary technology that deserves a lot more study before civilians are saddled with the costs they will invariably pay for the boondoggles involved. I realize that excess wind and solar power might be used but think that the expense involved leaves little or no real practical gain. I could be wrong but hope that investors do not go right after the public purse when we are 30 trillion dollars in debt! 

Show me a plan to actually save consumers money and make me a true believer like you. 

 

[Ron Wagner + 710]

Just for fun watch a 1994 movie. Chain Reaction about the discovery of cheap hydrogen to save the world. It is an action thriller with Keanu Reeves and Morgan Freeman. 

file:///home/chronos/u-a25e6c781b74b930441af739f4324d69cd73e655/MyFiles/Downloads/Chain%20Reaction%20(1996).mhtml

Edited September 15 by Ron Wagner

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

White Hydrogen Could Become Huge Revenue Source for Miners

White Hydrogen Could Become Huge Revenue Source for Miners | OilPrice.com

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

58 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

White Hydrogen Could Become Huge Revenue Source for Miners

White Hydrogen Could Become Huge Revenue Source for Miners | OilPrice.com

The helium is very valuable and increasingly rare.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 9/3/2024 at 12:26 AM, markslawson said:

I'm talking about its use in transport and power for which is it clearly completely unsuited - why don't you invest in the sector?

Oh Mark I bet your spiting your beer out in disgust at your own country leading the way in electricity generation from ..... wait for it.....yes you guessed it H2!

Looks like I'm late to the investment party, you boys have beaten me to it!

• In terms of GW electricity produced from hydrogen energy in the next 5 years, Australia is front of the pack with almost 28GW due to come online. The Netherlands comes in second with nearly 7GW; Ireland nearly 4GW; and China and Spain with 2GW each

28GW is no small amount of generation! I reckon that'll be about a qtr of Australia's needs by then.

Go Aussies!

Coal on the other hand was 75% of the energy mix in 2020 and is already down to approx 50%. bye bye coal!

Operational clean hydrogen production projects set to double globally within the next five years | Envirotec

Edited October 31 by Rob Plant

[markslawson + 1,058]

On 11/1/2024 at 2:14 AM, Rob Plant said:

In terms of GW electricity produced from hydrogen energy in the next 5 years, Australia is front of the pack with almost 28GW due to come online. The Netherlands comes in second with nearly 7GW; Ireland nearly 4GW; and China and Spain with 2GW each

As far as I know the 28 GW estimate for Australia is total fantasy. Before I read your post I was aware of only one project where H2 has been mooted as a fuel - a 660 MW gas turbine in the Snowy Mountains - but it's still a very long way from being used as there are no sources of green H2 near the site. I went looking for other projects and found this in Renew Economy 

Whyalla’s reincarnation as a green energy hub is inching ever closer, after the South Australian government ambitious renewable hydrogen plans for the steel city obtained their federal environmental approvals.

Australia’s green hydrogen industry is hitting multiple hurdles over cost and the lack of customers, but one that is forging ahead is the South Australia plan to build a world-leading (in terms of size) 200 MW hydrogen-fuelled power station, backed by a 250 MW electrolyser and associated storage facilities.

The power station and the electrolyser are among the biggest, if not the biggest of their type in the world, and together make the biggest hydrogen project commitment in Australia, and with an ambitious timeline of delivering it by early 2026.

There you go 200 MW with the entire project worth maybe half a billion A$.

Then there are projects like the H2 plant which BP says it plans to be build in Western Australia by repurposing an old oil importing/refining site. But it's not about producing electricity, it's about producing H2 with renewable energy??? The article doesn't say where the power is coming from, or who may buy the H2.  Apparently, they're going to wave a magic wand to produce H2 then wave another wand to produce customers. Anyway, my guess is whoever wrote the article for Energy Voice, where you got the quote, confused H2 production with power production and added in any fantasy proposal they could find to get to the 28 GW. I doubt that Kwinana (the H2 plant) will produce a molecule of the gas but BP will take $A70 million from the Aus Federal government (a bunch of right nutters) so that the company can put the project in its annual report. 

BP has also secured land for a proposed 10 GW wind and solar generation project that would be used to power an export-scale green hydrogen and ammonia production facility in the state’s mid-west and has also acquired a stake in the 26 GW Asian Renewable Energy Hub (AREH) project planned for Western Australia’s Pilbara region (much further North).

I remember looking at the Pilbara project when it was first proposed a decade ago. I see that it's still proposed although it has gotten as far as being rejected on environmental grounds by the WA state government (another bunch of nut jobs). If they get it up and someone actually buys the H2 - meaning they've overcome all the vast problems with exporting H2 - well good on them but I won't hold my breath.  

[TailingsPond + 1,009]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Then there are projects like the H2 plant which BP says it plans to be build in Western Australia by repurposing an old oil importing/refining site. But it's not about producing electricity, it's about producing H2 with renewable energy??? The article doesn't say where the power is coming from, or who may buy the H2.  

There are some large hydrogen startups around here but they are not based on renewable energy - they are all based on carbon capture of fossil fuels.  It is still essentially just burning natural gas but the CO2 portion gets pushed back underground for carbon tax reasons ($).

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:19 AM, TailingsPond said:

There are some large hydrogen startups around here but they are not based on renewable energy - they are all based on carbon capture of fossil fuels.  It is still essentially just burning natural gas but the CO2 portion gets pushed back underground for carbon tax reasons ($).

Carbon capture is mightily expensive, but many projects are still going ahead despite this, surprising to be honest.

[Ron Wagner + 710]

Yes, fossil fuel production is expected to continue rising in the foreseeable future. Despite growing awareness of the environmental impact of fossil fuels, global demand remains high, particularly in developing countries. Additionally, advancements in technology have made it easier and more cost-effective to extract fossil fuels, further driving production. However, there are efforts to shift towards renewable energy sources, which could potentially slow down the growth of fossil fuel production in the long term.