More bad news for renewables and hydrogen

[markslawson + 1,057]

One embarrassing fact for the many tireless advocates for renewables is that, despite claims that electricity from such sources is cheaper than conventional power, it seems that the more renewables there are on a grid around the world the more expensive the electricity. There are exceptions to this, notably those grids that use a lot of hydropower which counts as a renewable but has none of the disadvantages of intermittent wind and solar. There are also a number of US states that buck the trend unless analysts take a closer look. This article in the  Manhattan Contrarian  looks at the claims of Mark Z Jacobson, a professor at Stanford University who points to various states including South Dakota, Montana, Iowa and four others as having high levels of renewables but cheaper power prices. These critics point out in the article and the comments at the end that they cannot reconcile Professor Jacobson's figures with reality and that the cheaper prices may well be because the states are selling the renewable power to other states looking to meet their targets.

As for H2 this academic paper A review of the challenges with using the natural gas system for hydrogen points to the huge problems of trying to convert natural gas systems to H2. In effect, when you get beyond a mixture of 10-20 per cent by volume (far less by energy contribution) then the enginers have to totally redesign and rebuild the pipeline and replace all the gas fittings. It has some interesting comments on storage, transportation and as safety. None of it is really new but it is a handy summary of the huge problems involved in this one aspect of using H2 in energy systems.

 

[notsonice + 1,255]

3 hours ago, markslawson said:

One embarrassing fact for the many tireless advocates for renewables is that, despite claims that electricity from such sources is cheaper than conventional power, it seems that the more renewables there are on a grid around the world the more expensive the electricity. There are exceptions to this, notably those grids that use a lot of hydropower which counts as a renewable but has none of the disadvantages of intermittent wind and solar. There are also a number of US states that buck the trend unless analysts take a closer look. This article in the  Manhattan Contrarian  looks at the claims of Mark Z Jacobson, a professor at Stanford University who points to various states including South Dakota, Montana, Iowa and four others as having high levels of renewables but cheaper power prices. These critics point out in the article and the comments at the end that they cannot reconcile Professor Jacobson's figures with reality and that the cheaper prices may well be because the states are selling the renewable power to other states looking to meet their targets.

As for H2 this academic paper A review of the challenges with using the natural gas system for hydrogen points to the huge problems of trying to convert natural gas systems to H2. In effect, when you get beyond a mixture of 10-20 per cent by volume (far less by energy contribution) then the enginers have to totally redesign and rebuild the pipeline and replace all the gas fittings. It has some interesting comments on storage, transportation and as safety. None of it is really new but it is a handy summary of the huge problems involved in this one aspect of using H2 in energy systems.

 

when you get beyond a mixture of 10-20 per cent by volume (far less by energy contribution) then the enginers have to totally redesign and rebuild the pipeline and replace all the gas fittings????

no one is proposing putting hydrogen into existing nat gas  pipelines above 20 percent .......

The  main uses of Green Hydrogen will be used in industrial processes  IE to make ammonia to then make fertilizer, in steelmaking and chemical processes ( to replace the production of  grey hydrogen) and a 20 percent replacement of methane

According to available data, the global hydrogen production today  is approximately 75 million metric tons of pure hydrogen per year, with an additional 45 million metric tons produced as part of a gas mixture, totaling around 120 million metric tons annually

 

and finally production of green hydrogen from renewables at the sites of existing gas fired power plants and storing enough hydrogen (like a days worth)  to run the plants during peak demands....

 

it seems that the more renewables there are on a grid around the world the more expensive the electricity????????? thanks for trying to BS us again......reality today is Solar and Wind power does not cause electricity to become more expensive

states including South Dakota, Montana, Iowa and four others as having high levels of renewables but cheaper power prices......??????? Mark my bet is you have never lived in or been in any of these states , because if you did you would know they have the cheapest power prices in the US

https://www.energybot.com/electricity-rates/

 

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

1 hour ago, notsonice said:

when you get beyond a mixture of 10-20 per cent by volume (far less by energy contribution) then the enginers have to totally redesign and rebuild the pipeline and replace all the gas fittings????

no one is proposing putting hydrogen into existing nat gas  pipelines above 20 percent .......

The  main uses of Green Hydrogen will be used in industrial processes  IE to make ammonia to then make fertilizer, in steelmaking and chemical processes ( to replace the production of  grey hydrogen) and a 20 percent replacement of methane

According to available data, the global hydrogen production today  is approximately 75 million metric tons of pure hydrogen per year, with an additional 45 million metric tons produced as part of a gas mixture, totaling around 120 million metric tons annually

 

Actually, they are proposing to put H2 in high quantities into town gas systems, or at least saying we have to do it to get to net zero - read the paper. You probably haven't heard about it because no one has been dumb enough to do it. The paper's author was pointing to all the impossibilities, which is where we should leave that part of the discussion. I see you tried repeating the nonsense about renewables being cheaper. Read the material linked. You'll see there are big questions about the few places where renewable advocates can point to a high use of renewables and cheaper power prices, or at least prices that are not outrageously high. Renewables are certainly cheaper on a straight cost comparison but not if you put them into a grid. Then they become very, very expensive - not so much the power they generate but all the extra stuff that has to be done to run the grid around them. 

[notsonice + 1,255]

10 hours ago, markslawson said:

Actually, they are proposing to put H2 in high quantities into town gas systems, or at least saying we have to do it to get to net zero - read the paper. You probably haven't heard about it because no one has been dumb enough to do it. The paper's author was pointing to all the impossibilities, which is where we should leave that part of the discussion. I see you tried repeating the nonsense about renewables being cheaper. Read the material linked. You'll see there are big questions about the few places where renewable advocates can point to a high use of renewables and cheaper power prices, or at least prices that are not outrageously high. Renewables are certainly cheaper on a straight cost comparison but not if you put them into a grid. Then they become very, very expensive - not so much the power they generate but all the extra stuff that has to be done to run the grid around them. 

they are proposing to put H2 in high quantities into town gas systems????

 

who is they???? Mark, no is proposing this....Your posts are that of a Drama Queen in a quest to stop something that is not even being proposed. You post no proposals (try posting real links to real proposals , not requotes from other Drama Queens that also do not link to anything real)

 

You constantly post made up scenarios with nothing to back yourself up

 

such as

Renewables are certainly cheaper on a straight cost comparison but not if you put them into a grid. Then they become very, very expensive - not so much the power they generate but all the extra stuff that has to be done to run the grid around them. 

My power is now over 20 percent renewables and my power bill is the same it was over 10 years ago ( when inflation is factored in it is 30 percent less)

I now have a night time rate that also is lower than any rate I had available for the past 10 years.

Maybe if you would post some real numbers and facts, someone might take you seriously. As you keep posting the same garbage without any facts or real links to real information you lose all credibility.

[markslawson + 1,057]

4 hours ago, notsonice said:

Renewables are certainly cheaper on a straight cost comparison but not if you put them into a grid. Then they become very, very expensive - not so much the power they generate but all the extra stuff that has to be done to run the grid around them. 

My power is now over 20 percent renewables and my power bill is the same it was over 10 years ago ( when inflation is factored in it is 30 percent less)

I now have a night time rate that also is lower than any rate I had available for the past 10 years.

This is completely meaningless. Your power bill is the result of many factors. None the less as the discussion in the paper linked in the original post makes clear there is a distinct correlation increased use of renewables and higher power prices (Germany and the UK as opposed to France and Poland). Quoting individual examples without the details does not help, particularly if the renewables you have are hydro. I'm sure that once you calm down - your post has indications of hysteria - you'll see what I mean. As for the H2 thing there were posts on an earlier version of this forum but, as I said, no-one was mad enough to actually do it and the paper makes it plain that using H2 in town gas is all but impossible. Anyway, I urge you to look at these issues calmly and leave you with it. If its any consolation, Robert Plant may have a spot open in his university of bad ideas for you to lecture.. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

9 hours ago, markslawson said:

This is completely meaningless. Your power bill is the result of many factors. None the less as the discussion in the paper linked in the original post makes clear there is a distinct correlation increased use of renewables and higher power prices (Germany and the UK as opposed to France and Poland). Quoting individual examples without the details does not help, particularly if the renewables you have are hydro. I'm sure that once you calm down - your post has indications of hysteria - you'll see what I mean. As for the H2 thing there were posts on an earlier version of this forum but, as I said, no-one was mad enough to actually do it and the paper makes it plain that using H2 in town gas is all but impossible. Anyway, I urge you to look at these issues calmly and leave you with it. If its any consolation, Robert Plant may have a spot open in his university of bad ideas for you to lecture.. 

Again you spout a lot of what you believe not what is reailty, again no links, no facts!

You are really making yourself look ignorant by continually doing so, you also have zero come back to the numerous links others post refuting your "beliefs".

Higher powergen costs in the European countries you cite were a direct cause of NG gas price hikes due to the war in Ukraine, any fool can see this apart from you it seems.

Here let me help you with the UK's over the last 12 years, notice a sudden spike???

As you can see cost is rapidly falling back to levels seen before the Ukraine war.

Oh and if you think we have lots of blackouts then think again, the only ones we ever get are due to storm damage.

You really need to try much much harder and try posting some real facts!

You do your own agenda no favours!

Edited September 6 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Mark you talk of pipelines and the lack of them to transport H2

Have you even bothered to research what is going on before spouting your BS?

Let me help you again!

Which countries are building hydrogen pipelines fastest? | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

Try reading this and learn something for a change

Hydrogen-Insights-2023.pdf (hydrogencouncil.com)

[markslawson + 1,057]

20 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Again you spout a lot of what you believe not what is reailty, again no links, no facts!

You are really making yourself look ignorant by continually doing so, you also have zero come back to the numerous links others post refuting your "beliefs".

Higher powergen costs in the European countries you cite were a direct cause of NG gas price hikes due to the war in Ukraine, any fool can see this apart from you it seems.

Here let me help you with the UK's over the last 12 years, notice a sudden spike???

The trend I'm talking about was evident long before the war in Ukraine. I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about the NG prices due to the war. Renewables mean higher prices, and I'm talking about higher prices relative to other countries (ie France, Poland, Serbia, different states in the US and so on). Your graph is not sourced - also dunno if it's wholesale or retail - but in any case its of no use in making your case, as even a moment's thought would have shown. You really shouldn't abuse someone like that unless you're fairly sure of your own case but, as I've shown, you don't understand the point I was making in the first place. Leavfe it with you. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

20 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Mark you talk of pipelines and the lack of them to transport H2

Have you even bothered to research what is going on before spouting your BS?

Let me help you again!

Which countries are building hydrogen pipelines fastest? | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

Try reading this and learn something for a change

Hydrogen-Insights-2023.pdf (hydrogencouncil.com)

Rob - I'm being patient here. Okay, pipelines. Now go and look at the detail of the stuff you cite. It's obviously for industrial uses, not power. I admit that the pipelines go for some distance but it really makes no difference. H2 has long been used in industrial applications, mostly consumed at the same place that it's created. Now its transported a ways then used. Now as you're being constantly abusive I'll leave it with you but remember what I said... as far as power applications are concerned H2 is a waste of time. 

[TailingsPond + 1,006]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

as far as power applications are concerned H2 is a waste of time. 

I mostly agree with that.  However, adding hydrogen to natural gas distribution systems at even a low percentage can act as a powerful bridging technology.  With such a vast pipeline network it takes a lot of hydrogen to replace even a small percentage of nat gas (if it were evenly mixed which I admit is not true).  The hydrogen, in effect, acts as a chemical battery which can be turned back to electricity at a typical nat gas power plant.

It's not perfect but it may have a place.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

California Launches America’s First Hydrogen-Powered Passenger Train

California Launches America’s First Hydrogen-Powered Passenger Train | OilPrice.com

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 9/7/2024 at 6:25 AM, markslawson said:

The trend I'm talking about was evident long before the war in Ukraine. I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about the NG prices due to the war. Renewables mean higher prices, and I'm talking about higher prices relative to other countries (ie France, Poland, Serbia, different states in the US and so on). Your graph is not sourced - also dunno if it's wholesale or retail - but in any case its of no use in making your case, as even a moment's thought would have shown. You really shouldn't abuse someone like that unless you're fairly sure of your own case but, as I've shown, you don't understand the point I was making in the first place. Leavfe it with you. 

How was I abusing you????

I stated you keep making yourself look ignorant by not backing up your beliefs with links or data, and once again you post your own beliefs with zero links or data to back it up.

Anyway you now are specifically referring to power generation using H2 not being viable and not taken on by large multi-nationals, so I'll just add these links for you to peruse at your leisure.

Energy Transition Actions (siemens-energy.com)

#2 Transforming conventional power

 

Amid all the massive investments that need to be made, we cannot and should not overlook the infrastructure that already exists. This can and should be used as a bridge to carry out the transition – even if it is based on conventional technologies. By shifting from coal to gas, we can reduce emissions faster. And by using gas turbines which can be co-fired with hydrogen, we are preparing the way for even lower CO₂ intensity.

ACWA POWER | NEOM Green Hydrogen Project

Hydrogen Power Plants (siemens-energy.com)

Whilst I understand the laws of physics preclude H2 as a major powergen fuel source it doesnt mean it doesnt have a purpose or indeed a massive part to play in the transition away from FF!!!

Anyway keep it up it's entertaining!

Do your books have zero stuff in them to back up what you say too?