markslawson + 1,057 ML September 12 I meant to add this item from the Manhattan Contrarian in another thread, but the moment passed. One poster was doubting that renewables caused higher power prices. The Article compares power prices for various European countries and US states. As can be seen from the article Germany has been spending billions of Euros on the so called energy transition in exchange for 40 per cent plus penetration for solar and wind and the second most expensive power prices in Europe, after Belgium. Bear in mind that the 40 per cent or whatever is an average. At times renewable energy would account for 100 per cent of the load on the grid, and at other times almost nothing. The proportions would also vary year to year and decade to decade. It's a natural system. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP September 12 On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25 but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Renewables: Cheapest form of power Renewables: Cheapest form of power | United Nations Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA (carbonbrief.org) What’s the cheapest source of electricity? What's the cheapest source of electricity? | AquaSwitch The UK's costs for 2025 Mark every site I look at is saying the opposite to your post, also I cannot get your link to work. Simply google the question and you will find a whole host of sites refuting what you claim, I am yet to see 1 that agrees with it. I'm not deliberately disagreeing with you I genuinely cannot find anything to support your claim! Renewables will only get cheaper as it becomes more mainstream and technology advances. I do agree however that certain renewables suit certain climates/locations and others don't, but this still doesn't mean they are more expensive than conventional FF generation. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190 September 12 So, Robby with a straight face thinks CCGT is $100/MWh.... 😄😆 UK pumps their own gas.... Its almost as if GIANT ASS TAXES are added on and NOT on wind/solar and wind solar gets paid even if no one wants the power nor do the incur costs when wind does not blow and sun does not shine.... So, exact same CCGT in USA is $30/MWh.... UK has "special" gas I suppose Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,057 ML September 12 15 hours ago, Rob Plant said: On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25 but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Rob - for heaven's sake study the issue rather than grab material that sounds good and post it. You're quoting LEVELISED COSTS which has little to do with power prices on a grid. Sure, power taken directly from renewable generators is cheaper. The problem starts when you try to put them on a grid designed to deliver power 24/7 to consumers over a wide area, as Germany has managed to demonstrate. You still need conventional plants to put up the renewable generators, amongst other problems. That's why renewables drive up power prices where ever they are used. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP September 13 9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: So, Robby with a straight face thinks CCGT is $100/MWh.... 😄😆 UK pumps their own gas.... Its almost as if GIANT ASS TAXES are added on and NOT on wind/solar and wind solar gets paid even if no one wants the power nor do the incur costs when wind does not blow and sun does not shine.... So, exact same CCGT in USA is $30/MWh.... UK has "special" gas I suppose Well Footy we import the majority of our NG unlike the US so yes we are at the whim of the market. I didnt pull this cost out of my ass it is from "UK Government Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy" The Cost of Electricity Generation Methods - Pager Power I guess you know better than they do, please provide your extensive research and study on this so we can all have a look! If you havent then time to put that footbackinmouth. How are your tunnel projects coming along? Got much funding? 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP September 13 8 hours ago, markslawson said: Rob - for heaven's sake study the issue rather than grab material that sounds good and post it. You're quoting LEVELISED COSTS which has little to do with power prices on a grid. Sure, power taken directly from renewable generators is cheaper. The problem starts when you try to put them on a grid designed to deliver power 24/7 to consumers over a wide area, as Germany has managed to demonstrate. You still need conventional plants to put up the renewable generators, amongst other problems. That's why renewables drive up power prices where ever they are used. Ok Mark if you are dismissing Levelised costs then maybe try this, its how the UK determine electricity prices on its grid!! "Wholesale electricity prices are not regulated and, instead, trading on spot (or day-ahead) markets sets them. In these markets, electricity generators bid to contribute to the power grid. The power exchange (Nord Pool in the UK) accepts these bids in price order, from lowest to highest, until demand is met, in what is known as the ‘merit order’: sources of electricity with the lowest marginal cost of generation (typically renewables, as they do not use any fuel) are the first bids to be accepted, and sources such as gas- and coal-fired power stations are the last (as they use fuel and the generator must also pay carbon tax on that fuel use)." Electricity market | Institute for Government I hope that clears that up for you! Renewables do not "drive up prices where ever they are used" thats garbage! You also post zero to back up your claim once again. The UK also has 12.3GW of interconnectors between countries which it uses when the price suits or when renewables are contributing a small percentage (which is very rare). It also exports excess power from renewables to these countries, for example the 1.4GW North Sea Link between Norway and the UK, when the wind blows we export to Norway, when it doesnt we buy their hydro, works very well. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,453 DL September 13 On 9/12/2024 at 4:10 AM, Rob Plant said: On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25 but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Renewables: Cheapest form of power Renewables: Cheapest form of power | United Nations Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA (carbonbrief.org) What’s the cheapest source of electricity? What's the cheapest source of electricity? | AquaSwitch The UK's costs for 2025 Mark every site I look at is saying the opposite to your post, also I cannot get your link to work. Simply google the question and you will find a whole host of sites refuting what you claim, I am yet to see 1 that agrees with it. I'm not deliberately disagreeing with you I genuinely cannot find anything to support your claim! Renewables will only get cheaper as it becomes more mainstream and technology advances. I do agree however that certain renewables suit certain climates/locations and others don't, but this still doesn't mean they are more expensive than conventional FF generation. So your list has only about 65% of electricity accounted for...where is the rest? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,057 ML September 13 14 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Wholesale electricity prices are not regulated and, instead, trading on spot (or day-ahead) markets sets them. In these markets, electricity generators bid to contribute to the power grid. The power exchange (Nord Pool in the UK) accepts these bids in price order, from lowest to highest, until demand is met, in what is known as the ‘merit order’: sources of electricity with the lowest marginal cost of generation (typically renewables, as they do not use any fuel) are the first bids to be accepted, and sources such as gas- and coal-fired power stations are the last (as they use fuel and the generator must also pay carbon tax on that fuel use)." Electricity market | Institute for Government Again, Rob, you've quoted stuff you don't understand out of context. Sure, what the passage says is correct and, that's right, renewables have been known to collapse the spot price pool for power. But you're confusing the wholesale spot price with total wholesale and power prices. In the UK in particular they have balancing costs and capacity prices - that is generators paid to stay operating just in case they are needed. There is a wide and increasing gap between the market wholesale price and the price needed to deliver power. If you don't believe this, ask yourself why Germany and UK have vast amounts of renewable power on their grids and have extremely expensive retail power prices. As I said before you need to study the subject. There is much more I could say, but I now don't take you seriously on this stuff. I won't bother to reply to you on this thread. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron Wagner + 706 September 16 On 9/12/2024 at 3:10 AM, Rob Plant said: On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25 but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Renewables: Cheapest form of power Renewables: Cheapest form of power | United Nations Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA (carbonbrief.org) What’s the cheapest source of electricity? What's the cheapest source of electricity? | AquaSwitch The UK's costs for 2025 Mark every site I look at is saying the opposite to your post, also I cannot get your link to work. Simply google the question and you will find a whole host of sites refuting what you claim, I am yet to see 1 that agrees with it. I'm not deliberately disagreeing with you I genuinely cannot find anything to support your claim! Renewables will only get cheaper as it becomes more mainstream and technology advances. I do agree however that certain renewables suit certain climates/locations and others don't, but this still doesn't mean they are more expensive than conventional FF generation. The price to the consumers is what needs to be looked at. It is what counts more than anything else. Not just what leaders want you to believe. All the factors need to be examined as a whole, that includes transmission lines and all new related expenses. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,538 September 16 3 minutes ago, Ron Wagner said: The price to the consumers is what needs to be looked at. It is what counts more than anything else. Not just what leaders want you to believe. All the factors need to be examined as a whole, that includes transmission lines and all new related expenses. Price per KWh is indeed a large consideration. All new generating equipment is expensive. Much of the transmission and related switching equipment capital can be heavily reduced by locating near a retired fossil facility. That what Bill Gates in doing in Kemmerer, WY on the Terra Power nuclear plant. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 852 GE September 16 12 hours ago, turbguy said: Much of the transmission and related switching equipment capital can be heavily reduced by locating near a retired fossil facility. That what Bill Gates in doing in Kemmerer, WY on the Terra Power nuclear plant. Nuclear is not renewable energy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 852 GE September 16 10 hours ago, specinho said: Funny, but thermal solar systems (like for hot water) can get too hot. Concentrated solar reflecting arrays often have to point some of the mirrors off into space to prevent overheating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turbguy + 1,538 September 17 11 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Nuclear is not renewable energy. Quite true! But THAT plant would be wonderful for supporting variable renewable sources. It will be able to LOAD CYCLE with a large energy storage component. No other Nuc plant in the USA cycles. They all run pedal-to-the-metal, or not at all. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,453 DL September 30 On 9/12/2024 at 4:10 AM, Rob Plant said: On average the levelized cost of electricity from utility scale solar power and onshore wind power is less than from coal and gas-fired power stations,[1]: TS-25 but this varies greatly by location. Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia Renewables: Cheapest form of power Renewables: Cheapest form of power | United Nations Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA Solar is now ‘cheapest electricity in history’, confirms IEA (carbonbrief.org) What’s the cheapest source of electricity? What's the cheapest source of electricity? | AquaSwitch The UK's costs for 2025 Mark every site I look at is saying the opposite to your post, also I cannot get your link to work. Simply google the question and you will find a whole host of sites refuting what you claim, I am yet to see 1 that agrees with it. I'm not deliberately disagreeing with you I genuinely cannot find anything to support your claim! Renewables will only get cheaper as it becomes more mainstream and technology advances. I do agree however that certain renewables suit certain climates/locations and others don't, but this still doesn't mean they are more expensive than conventional FF generation. It's okay, we understand that you are not in any sort of deliberate disagreement with him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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