Plastic Myth-Busters

[NickW + 2,714]

On 11/20/2018 at 4:17 PM, John Foote said:

Plastics are great in many ways. And in many cases have a superior cost for the user and consumer.

The downside of course is the pollution cost is not a burden to the user or consumer. And that costs is very hard to calculate and will be subjective to some degree. I like capitalism, embrace but by it's nature it is completely unconcerned with systemic costs, just the individual return. Hence, it does need some level of regulation. Not suggesting we outlaw plastics, but was it really so bad when we used reusable glass for sodas. 

And plastic trash is everywhere. I've been in the middle of the Ruba al Khalli, gone a day without seeing so much as a single bird or even a camel turd, and yet the ubiquitous plastic bag is seen, often sadly referred to as the national flower of Saudi, but that is hardly exclusive to them.  

I had several trips to Shaybah and to credit the site Superintendent he kept the place pretty clean by Saudi standards. Apparently he had even had managers out on litter picks!

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 11/24/2018 at 10:24 AM, NickW said:

I had several trips to Shaybah and to credit the site Superintendent he kept the place pretty clean by Saudi standards. Apparently he had even had managers out on litter picks!

Shaybah is a pretty magnificent place. And yes, kept well. And serious middle of nowhere. The 300' dunes are something to see as well. 

Mostly Aramco facilities were kept clean, though an army of contract help from India had a lot to do with it. I used to referee teenage boy soccer games on camp, and they'd toss trash after the game, and I'd rip into them. The parents typically sheepishly would clean up behind them, but not make the kids clean up themselves.

I went to the southwest mountains in Asir, and Baha, checked out these magnificent scenic overlooks, get out the car, and you are completely surrounded by plastic bags and such. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, John Foote said:

Shaybah is a pretty magnificent place. And yes, kept well. And serious middle of nowhere. The 300' dunes are something to see as well. 

Mostly Aramco facilities were kept clean, though an army of contract help from India had a lot to do with it. I used to referee teenage boy soccer games on camp, and they'd toss trash after the game, and I'd rip into them. The parents typically sheepishly would clean up behind them, but not make the kids clean up themselves.

I went to the southwest mountains in Asir, and Baha, checked out these magnificent scenic overlooks, get out the car, and you are completely surrounded by plastic bags and such. 

I remember watching in a conference meeting a group of Saudis just throwing paper plates and cups on the floor so the Indian waiter could crawl around on the floor picking them up. 

Bunch of arrogant pigs. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, John Foote said:

Shaybah is a pretty magnificent place. And yes, kept well. And serious middle of nowhere. The 300' dunes are something to see as well. 

Mostly Aramco facilities were kept clean, though an army of contract help from India had a lot to do with it. I used to referee teenage boy soccer games on camp, and they'd toss trash after the game, and I'd rip into them. The parents typically sheepishly would clean up behind them, but not make the kids clean up themselves.

I went to the southwest mountains in Asir, and Baha, checked out these magnificent scenic overlooks, get out the car, and you are completely surrounded by plastic bags and such. 

Plastic bags and coke cans - the main features of a Red Sea Diving trip😒

[John Sczesny + 2]

  On 11/14/2018 at 10:59 AM, John Sczesny said:

I worked in plastics packaging for food several years. It reduced spoilage of vegetables, meats and the like. It is helping 3rd world countries reduce the cost of food due to less spoilage. This is mostly flexible packaging.  I would like to hear of the alternatives that are affordable to these developing economies. To my knowledge  there is not a less expensive life cycle for food packaging at present.  Developing a biodegradable flexible package where it actually cannot hold together after X months may be a solution. 

Jan van Eck: I was under the impression that a plastic sealing film can be manufactured using corn starch as the base material.  It then disintegrates in a few months, and quite rapidly if exposed to UV light  (sunlight).  Can you shed any light on this as a film packaging material?  Or does price/cost keep it off the market? 

 

Jan, I like your question and tongue in cheek about shedding light on the film packaging material!  I sense the corn starch plastic degrading as I write.

Corn starch is made into polylactic acid or PLA or PLLA or other similar types. It had rudimentary abilities for being made into a sealant layer when i left the packaging industries. It was monoextruded.

With different types of polyethylene and ethylene copolymers, one could add in maleic anhydride to the batch and help it be more suitable for sealing or attaching one type of plastic to another. Also, PLA is thermally sensitive, I recall it does not stand up to the extrusion so well. This happened with the material we call SARAN (PVDC), which was horrible to extrude yielding HCL gas in compounding and in extrusion. However, we learned many tricks and ways to mitigate PVDC's temperature stability. Yes you can add additives to PLA for heat stability and perfect it further. I am sure that has been done by now. It probably barely holds up, but then that would be the point right? 

I worked in irradiating films to aid in making it shrink more easily, somewhat modifying the structure of the film where it crosslinks. This could also aid in making the PLA more heat stable for other applications.

I did read up on PLA's some more. Remarkably, they are used in 3D Printing and melt quite easily. 

My other comments: We can iteratively improve and reduce plastic usage with our known technologies. Structural plastic does help us in so many ways and can be recycled. Much flexible packaging can be recycled into composites with wood fiber. Flexible packaging could be exempted for necessary foods such as meat and vegetables.

Now those 'disposable' grocery bags should go by the wayside! People can bring their own to the store and by reusable bags.

I don't see how the energy and carbon footprint ( less plastic) could be reduced further unless we went to regionalized or localized micro-manufacturing and agricultural centers. 

• i

[DA? + 301]

5 hours ago, NickW said:

Plastic bags and coke cans - the main features of a Red Sea Diving trip😒

In the 90's I spent some time in the Sinai, last time in the later 90's I went walk about from Dahab up to the MFO base then headed in land. In just the years I'd been going out there the place had become littered with plastic bottles. Where the wind blow them they were piled over a meter high.

 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 minute ago, DA? said:

In the 90's I spent some time in the Sinai, last time in the later 90's I went walk about from Dahab up to the MFO base then headed in land. In just the years I'd been going out there the place had become littered with plastic bottles. Where the wind blow them they were piled over a meter high.

 

In 100,000 years time (should humans still exist) we will probably be mining them as a source of long chain hydrocarbons

[Janet Alderton + 124]

On 11/13/2018 at 11:50 PM, DA? said:

1,2 & 4 are obvious to everyone.

3. Comparing packing food in a one use plastic and then glass to make a point is misleading, often other materials are better.

5. Yes Europe doesn't export off much of it's waste plastic because China told them to stuff it.

6. I agree with this point cloths waste is horrendous, but one evil does not make another evil ok. My mother inlaw runs an organisation that includes second hand clothing, it's amazing what people throw away. Good for me as I get all sorts of cloths for dam all.

There are many ways we can cut down plastic waste, stopping double or even triple wrapping of items for a start. Plastic alternatives are often available especially for that one use then bin type and are been rapidly developed. Some of these products that are being developed not being petroleum based are far easier to make biodegradable, one I saw the other day made from waste from the shell fish industry is even edible.

The real problem with plastics is they get in to the environment and course massive problems.

Mixed plastics to oil.

Give a value to "waste" plastic and it will stop ending up in the oceans or inside us as microplastic fragments.

Plastic to Energy.docx