EU calls for sanctions against Italy

[jaycee + 348]

31 minutes ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

I feel this is nevertheless a project worth to be defended against those who want to destroy it. 

I think the vast majority of people want to keep the EU, even 5 Star in Italy want to stay in though their minority partners the League would not but they are not that strong. At the moment there is a very large body of people throughout the EU for whom it's not working and they are asking for change which the elite are ignoring and instead are forcing them to swallow bad economic policies and on top off that in some cases suffer mass migration of refugees in and intelligent young people out of their countries if this is good for Europe I hate to think what is bad.
Those in charge take their orders from the prosperous northern countries, one in particular, and ignore others as complainers who wont take their economic medicine this is always a recipe for change, let them eat cake seems to be the policy. So far discontent has been limited to the ballot box but if that fails it may escalate as the hard right are waiting in the wings to leverage any grievance. The EU is failing its people and is running headlong into a crisis if it does not open its eyes and ears to its citizens needs.
I have lived and/or worked in many countries in northern and southern Europe.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

Dan, I understand your point of view. For many people nationalism is only being proud of own country but for others it is tainted with a feeling of superiority over the other countries or other cultures and it's this more extreme form that causes the real problems (xenophobia, racism). Given that the definition of nationalism is not clear if you define yourself as a nationalist, some can view you as just a patriotic guy proud of his country but other can view you as a potential xenophobic and racist. That depends of each one definition of nationalism and heavily related to the history of  own country. So I understand that those who are just proud of their own country are offended to be treated as xenophobic racists. But in the case of Donald Trump there is a huge amount of public declarations proving that he is leaning towards the more extreme form of nationalism (when he treated some foreign countries as "Shithole countries" for instance).

Another problem with nationalism is that in our modern world defining what is your own country is not always an easy task. Is It the country where you live ? Is it the country where you are born ? Is it the country where your family come from ?... Take my own case for instance. Three of my grand parents were Spanish so am I Spanish ? The father of my father was Italian and I have inherited of an Italian passport so am I Italian ? I'm born and raised in Switzerland but contrary to the US there is no automatic birthright citizenship in Switzerland so am I Swiss ? Living in the french speaking part of Switzerland, french is my mother tongue si am I French ? Personally I feel at the same time Swiss, Italian, Spanish and French and feel at home in all four countries. I'm multicultural and the best way to define me would be that I'm a European.

So when I see the current Italian government trying to undermine the EU I don't like it. The European Union has emerged after the second world war as an attempt to build something in common on our continent instead of having each country acting against the others until the next continental war. It is far from being a perfect construction and there are many issues on how the EU is structured or managed but I feel this is nevertheless a project worth to be defended against those who want to destroy it.

 

 

Ok.  I hear you.

Most of us would have to look up Xenophobic.  Now, if you were to say that we disliked or were prejudiced against people from other countries, I think most people would simply say "Nope, don't have that problem.  To each their own.".  In the case of Donald Trump, well, it's important to note that public declarations are not proving anything; they are just public declarations.  Secondly, Donald Trump saying he is a nationalist, which I also saw on the international stage (and cringed just a bit because it was the international stage) is nothing, nothing, more than Donald Trump attempting to get himself re-elected back home.  True he was being insensitive to the international community, but he doesn't need them to get re-elected so he fundamentally does not care.  Donald Trump is a man; he is not the United States.  The fact that he got elected says more about a lack of acceptable alternatives than it does about the people that voted for him (IMHO), no matter what the media and the Left may go on about.  We've got a lot of winners and high achievers in America, and we have a lot of losers and boozers, too, and a whole lot of people in between, just like anyplace else.  Nobody really knows where Donald Trump fits into that landscape, but he appealed to a whole lot of people that were feeling pretty left out for a pretty long time, and he won the election.  Enough about Trump the Enigma!

About your whole second paragraph: May I respectfully say that you personally would seem to be in a confused state of mind, if all of that weighs on you.  I was born and raised in the state of Illinois, but I'm American no matter where I am or where my ancestors or relatives come from.  I would think you could say you were born and raised in Switzerland and you are a citizen of the E.U., simple as that.  Otherwise what does it mean to have a European Union?  The rest of the places you've lived or spent considerable time are just part of the story of your life.  But that is up to you, I have no say in that.

Your last paragraph made me chuckle a bit.  Sorry.  Over my lifetime we have had Texas saying they were going to split off and be the United State of Texas or some such BS time and again.  The rest of us just shrugged our shoulders and said, go ahead!  But there's a difference, apparently, in the EU.  It appears that the EU does not allow its states to run their own affairs, to run their own deficits, or even declare bankruptcy, if and when they should otherwise be allowed to do so.  And heaven forbid someone wants to talk about leaving the EU!  Man, that's like the Church of Scientology or the Hotel California (You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave)!  Let Italy leave if they want to.  Let them crash their economy if they want to; at least they won't be able to blame the rest of you OR come begging for handouts when they get into trouble.  They can get in line for a loan, just like anybody else.

I'm oversimplifying a lot of this, I know.  But please don't think I take the issues lightly.  They are valid and should be respected, and I sincerely hope we all continue to improve the lot of all the people of the world, however and whenever we have a chance.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

3 hours ago, Guillaume Albasini said:

Dan, I understand your point of view. For many people nationalism is only being proud of own country but for others it is tainted with a feeling of superiority over the other countries or other cultures and it's this more extreme form that causes the real problems (xenophobia, racism). Given that the definition of nationalism is not clear if you define yourself as a nationalist, some can view you as just a patriotic guy proud of his country but other can view you as a potential xenophobic and racist. That depends of each one definition of nationalism and heavily related to the history of  own country. So I understand that those who are just proud of their own country are offended to be treated as xenophobic racists. But in the case of Donald Trump there is a huge amount of public declarations proving that he is leaning towards the more extreme form of nationalism (when he treated some foreign countries as "Shithole countries" for instance).

Another problem with nationalism is that in our modern world defining what is your own country is not always an easy task. Is It the country where you live ? Is it the country where you are born ? Is it the country where your family come from ?... Take my own case for instance. Three of my grand parents were Spanish so am I Spanish ? The father of my father was Italian and I have inherited of an Italian passport so am I Italian ? I'm born and raised in Switzerland but contrary to the US there is no automatic birthright citizenship in Switzerland so am I Swiss ? Living in the french speaking part of Switzerland, french is my mother tongue si am I French ? Personally I feel at the same time Swiss, Italian, Spanish and French and feel at home in all four countries. I'm multicultural and the best way to define me would be that I'm a European.

So when I see the current Italian government trying to undermine the EU I don't like it. The European Union has emerged after the second world war as an attempt to build something in common on our continent instead of having each country acting against the others until the next continental war. It is far from being a perfect construction and there are many issues on how the EU is structured or managed but I feel this is nevertheless a project worth to be defended against those who want to destroy it.

 

 

Well said. 

let's not burn it to the ground, rather let us find a way to fix it. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

2 hours ago, jaycee said:

I think the vast majority of people want to keep the EU, even 5 Star in Italy want to stay in though their minority partners the League would not but they are not that strong. At the moment there is a very large body of people throughout the EU for whom it's not working and they are asking for change which the elite are ignoring and instead are forcing them to swallow bad economic policies and on top off that in some cases suffer mass migration of refugees in and intelligent young people out of their countries if this is good for Europe I hate to think what is bad.
Those in charge take their orders from the prosperous northern countries, one in particular, and ignore others as complainers who wont take their economic medicine this is always a recipe for change, let them eat cake seems to be the policy. So far discontent has been limited to the ballot box but if that fails it may escalate as the hard right are waiting in the wings to leverage any grievance. The EU is failing its people and is running headlong into a crisis if it does not open its eyes and ears to its citizens needs.
I have lived and/or worked in many countries in northern and southern Europe.

JC, 

Have you considered the alternative? Individuel contries negotiating unilateral trade agreements ect? Seriously, if it was that easy we would have had a hard brexit long ago. The EU is not perfect. far from. But consider - the reason that the EURO is not working is that there is  no common fiscal policy. A common currency, but my common fiscal policy.... how could it not fail???

I don't think anyone thinks the EU is perfect. But what is the alternative??? 

Let's fix it. Not burn it to the ground. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

10 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

JC, 

Have you considered the alternative? Individuel contries negotiating unilateral trade agreements ect? Seriously, if it was that easy we would have had a hard brexit long ago. The EU is not perfect. far from. But consider - the reason that the EURO is not working is that there is  no common fiscal policy. A common currency, but my common fiscal policy.... how could it not fail???

I don't think anyone thinks the EU is perfect. But what is the alternative??? 

Let's fix it. Not burn it to the ground. 

I agree with you there.  Democracy is not perfect, nor are any democracies in their various forms, but they are worth working on and fixing.  And although I mentioned in another comment that the EU should let Italy go if they want to, Italy really ought to knuckle down and try to do better.  Just saying I want to take my ball and go home is usually not a good answer.  Most people's parents, if they were fortunate enough to have at least one solid parent, taught this at a young age.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

I just glanced up at the title of this thread, "EU calls for sanctions against Italy", and it occurred to me that you guys from the EU might not really care what I have to say about EU affairs.  Maybe I should have thought about that a little bit more before I went off on my little tangents?  Sorry to butt in.

[jaycee + 348]

1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Let's fix it. Not burn it to the ground. 

My point was it needs fixing but the EU is totally ignoring the problem and blaming the victims. I did not suggest countries splitting out in fact pointed out the majority does not want that. The alternative is to have a democratic EU that actually addresses all people's needs not just some people's but no sign of that so far.

Edited November 22, 2018 by jaycee
trying to type while travelling

[jaycee + 348]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

I just glanced up at the title of this thread, "EU calls for sanctions against Italy", and it occurred to me that you guys from the EU might not really care what I have to say about EU affairs.  Maybe I should have thought about that a little bit more before I went off on my little tangents?  Sorry to butt in.

I comment in US affairs it's a free website with free access. My point has always been to listen to all views. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

18 hours ago, jaycee said:

My point was it needs fixing but the EU is totally ignoring the problem and blaming the victims. I did not suggest countries splitting out in fact pointed out the majority does not want that. The alternative is to have a democratic EU that actually addresses all people's needs not just some people's but no sign of that so far.

A good way to go about fixing could be to suggest solutions... 

[jaycee + 348]

48 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

A good way to go about fixing could be to suggest solutions... 

Getting rid of German influence in economic policy theiir way of doing things is based on thier fears of returning to the hyperinflation of post war Germany. Debt forgiveness for the Latin countries is the only sensible way forward.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

45 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Getting rid of German influence in economic policy theiir way of doing things is based on thier fears of returning to the hyperinflation of post war Germany. Debt forgiveness for the Latin countries is the only sensible way forward.

Control, control, control.  And make sure that people "know their place".  Our German friends seem to know that the rest of the people can't be trusted to make the "right" decisions.  Maybe that is why Angela wanted to let all the refugees into the EU, forcibly if necessary, so that she can point to them and say: "See!  We must act in the best interest of ALL the people, for they know not what they are doing.  Poor souls."

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

On 11/22/2018 at 2:09 AM, Guillaume Albasini said:

In Eastern Europe they probably have a more positive view of nationalism  because they equate it to opposing the soviet domination between 1945 and 1989.

Ottoman domination first, then Soviet. But in good circles it is customary to wrinkle your nose at nationalism. It's for poor, stupid, uneducated, anti-Western people.

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

On 11/22/2018 at 7:26 PM, Dan Warnick said:

I just glanced up at the title of this thread, "EU calls for sanctions against Italy", and it occurred to me that you guys from the EU might not really care what I have to say about EU affairs.  Maybe I should have thought about that a little bit more before I went off on my little tangents?  Sorry to butt in.

No way. A different perspective from the outside is almost invariably valuable precisely because it comes from the outside.

On 11/23/2018 at 4:07 PM, jaycee said:

Getting rid of German influence in economic policy theiir way of doing things is based on thier fears of returning to the hyperinflation of post war Germany. Debt forgiveness for the Latin countries is the only sensible way forward.

Debt forgiveness? Just like that? That's a recipe for disaster. Everyone will want their debt forgiven otherwise we'll scream DISCRIMINATION!

[jaycee + 348]

2 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

No way. A different perspective from the outside is almost invariably valuable precisely because it comes from the outside.

Debt forgiveness? Just like that? That's a recipe for disaster. Everyone will want their debt forgiven otherwise we'll scream DISCRIMINATION! 

I was asked the solution and that is the only one and will one day be forced upon the EU when their is a serious collapse in one of  the Latin countries, my money is on Greece being first to get it. Italy will never generate enough cash from taxes to pay back the debts so the repayments will keep them investing in their infrastructure etc so they will be in a slow death spiral. Look at Greece it has been forced into paying back its debts and its now asking for more loans despite doing exactly as Germany sorry the ECB told them. If the EU was truly supposed to be for the benefit of all participating countries debt forgiveness would be done for the long term good of the EU instead the German banks would rather keep extracting their pound of flesh every year in the form of interest and keep the Latin countries in slavery effectively. If the EU banks did not recognise the problem with the accounts of the Latin countries when they loaned them money who is to blame? In the UK if a bank gives me a loan you cannot afford it is their fault for not doing proper research this stops predatory lending. This type of lending was done by EU banks but mainly German ones in the past to Latin countries now they should pay for their mistakes but they wont as that will cost German tax payers. All for one and all for Germany lol

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

Oh, my god, don't ever let a Greek hear you call them "Latin"!

Greece cooked their books, for Rome's sake, they didn't just suffer a stroke or something. You cook the books, you have to pay. I understand you have a personal grudge against Germany but, honestly, neither Germany or the EU as a whole is a guard dog of all its members. I wish they were as life would be that much easier and mistakes would be avoided but there it is. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 minutes ago, jaycee said:

I was asked the solution and that is the only one and will one day be forced upon the EU when their is a serious collapse in one of  the Latin countries, my money is on Greece being first to get it. Italy will never generate enough cash from taxes to pay back the debts so the repayments will keep them investing in their infrastructure etc so they will be in a slow death spiral. Look at Greece it has been forced into paying back its debts and its now asking for more loans despite doing exactly as Germany sorry the ECB told them. If the EU was truly supposed to be for the benefit of all participating countries debt forgiveness would be done for the long term good of the EU instead the German banks would rather keep extracting their pound of flesh every year in the form of interest and keep the Latin countries in slavery effectively. If the EU banks did not recognise the problem with the accounts of the Latin countries when they loaned them money who is to blame? In the UK if a bank gives me a loan you cannot afford it is their fault for not doing proper research this stops predatory lending. This type of lending was done by EU banks but mainly German ones in the past to Latin countries now they should pay for their mistakes but they wont as that will cost German tax payers. All for one and all for Germany lol

JC,

I am not entirely in disagreement with you. But this view doesn't seem consistent with your view on poor people on welfare... 

[jaycee + 348]

1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Oh, my god, don't ever let a Greek hear you call them "Latin"!

Greece cooked their books, for Rome's sake, they didn't just suffer a stroke or something. You cook the books, you have to pay. I understand you have a personal grudge against Germany but, honestly, neither Germany or the EU as a whole is a guard dog of all its members. I wish they were as life would be that much easier and mistakes would be avoided but there it is. 

Nothing against the Germans they are doing what they can to promote German interests. Germany/EU accepted the Latins, including the Greeks , into the EU and everyone knew they cooked the books, the Italians even added in some GDP for their very large black market to get over the finishing line but the EU was willing to accept the problems now they must accept the consequences. Debt forgiveness is common for all countries in heavy debt, South American countries regularly default and the debts are wiped off by the banks as a bad investment. The mistake the EU banks made was to place the same risk (interest rate) factor against Italian lending as German.
The overall problem is Germany is trying to impose Germanic accountancy practises and fiscal responsibility on countries that it is not suited for it will take many, many years of pain to turn Italy or Greece into Germany and I suspect long before then they will leave the EU as they did not sign up to be put into a permanent depression whilst this happened. Italy and Greece are 10 years into austerity with no end in sight pretty soon they are going to think it maybe better outside the Euro so they can devalue the currency to make the debt more manageable and also increase tourism and manufacturing as they did pre Euro days. There must be a compromise of debt forgiveness otherwise the EU will break up or collapse when the next economic crisis hits as the Latins, plus Greece, are in no shape to weather it and when that happens Germany et all will suffer very badly.

1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

JC,

I am not entirely in disagreement with you. But this view doesn't seem consistent with your view on poor people on welfare... 

In what way? 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

Once again, Greeks are not Latin. Is there a reason you insist on calling them that?

4 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Debt forgiveness is common for all countries in heavy debt, South American countries regularly default and the debts are wiped off by the banks as a bad investment.

Really? Could you name one? Because I'm thinking Venezuela and I don't see any bank wiping their debt out as bad investment and letting them start fresh. I don't follow South american bad debt history, though, so I welcome any insight.

I seriously doubt Germany is trying to turn anyone else into itself. it would be idiotic. But the EU is a union, let's not forget, and some common rules must apply.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

21 minutes ago, jaycee said:

In what way? 

EU didn't force Italy, Spain or Greece to borrow. They did it on their own free will, to better the living conditions in their countries. And when the bill comes then debt needs to be forgiven, hmm...

I loaned money for my house. If I don't make the mortgage payments the bank takes my house. So, I respect the terms of my loan agreement. 

Nobody forced Italy to join the EURO. Denmark has reservations, so could Italy. Yes, not being able to de-value the Lira is not helping the Italians, but they have other problems too that aren't caused by the EU. 

---------------

Qoute from another of your posts:

That's life you work hard you gain rewards. Don't work hard you don't get the rewards. The migrants doing the farm jobs are sending money home to look after their families they are trying to improve their life, UK unemployed have no ambition as they are kept well as they are without working.

unqoute

------------------

All that being said, I do agree that debt forgiveness needs to be discussed, but it needs to be in sensible way. Otherwise Greece and Italy will become like the welfare clients you so vehemently oppose. 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[jaycee + 348]

1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Once again, Greeks are not Latin. Is there a reason you insist on calling them that?

Really? Could you name one? Because I'm thinking Venezuela and I don't see any bank wiping their debt out as bad investment and letting them start fresh. I don't follow South american bad debt history, though, so I welcome any insight.

I seriously doubt Germany is trying to turn anyone else into itself. it would be idiotic. But the EU is a union, let's not forget, and some common rules must apply.

Forgiveness is probably the wrong term restructuring is more accurate Argentina is the poster child for that.

Germany is trying to impose rules that don't wok for Italy their economy is mainly illegal they cannot control it the country is too corrupt it should never have been allowed into the EU.  Pretending they can repay the debt is not helping anyone go forward. Do you think come the next crisis Greek and more importantly Italian banks will survive? The domino effect will go right round the EU then the world just like the banking crisis. Simpler now to restructure the debt to manageable terms because they will have a bigger problem if they don't. Italy and Greece will never be ready for many, many years if ever as I said because their economies are nothing like as legal or as organised as other parts of the EU so applying the same rules to them is not helping anyone apart from German banks who loaned them the money stupidly. They need to take a percentage in the Euro of the debt and forget about it otherwise the Eurozone will collapse.

Apologies to Greeks everywhere for the shorthand I will go for PIGS next time but I dont think many here know the abbreviation, I dropped Ireland as they are out of the woods.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

8 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Germany is trying to impose rules that don't wok for Italy their economy is mainly illegal they cannot control it the country is too corrupt it should never have been allowed into the EU.  Pretending they can repay the debt is not helping anyone go forward. Do you think come the next crisis Greek and more importantly Italian banks will survive? The domino effect will go right round the EU then the world just like the banking crisis. Simpler now to restructure the debt to manageable terms because they will have a bigger problem if they don't. Italy and Greece will never be ready for many, many years if ever as I said because their economies are nothing like as legal or as organised as other parts of the EU so applying the same rules to them is not helping anyone apart from German banks who loaned them the money stupidly. They need to take a percentage in the Euro of the debt and forget about it otherwise the Eurozone will collapse.

agree on the practicality. But I hope you can also agree that there must be a mechanism for repeating the same mistake again? The main issue with Italy is the corruption and the in-efficiency of their industries. Anyone that has seen how Saipem, ENI and Prysmian works knows this. Leaving the EURO or forgiving debt won't fix this. As always when you point 1 finger at others... 

It does however have a lot of appeal for politicians trying to get elected - it is all EUs fault, ant ours... 

[jaycee + 348]

1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

EU didn't force Italy, Spain or Greece to borrow. They did it on their own free will, to better the living conditions in their countries. And when the bill comes then debt needs to be forgiven, hmm...

I loaned money for my house. If I don't make the mortgage payments the bank takes my house. So, I respect the terms of my loan agreement. 

Nobody forced Italy to join the EURO. Denmark has reservations, so could Italy. Yes, not being able to de-value the Lira is not helping the Italians, but they have other problems too that aren't caused by the EU. 

---------------

Qoute from another of your posts:

That's life you work hard you gain rewards. Don't work hard you don't get the rewards. The migrants doing the farm jobs are sending money home to look after their families they are trying to improve their life, UK unemployed have no ambition as they are kept well as they are without working.

unqoute

------------------

All that being said, I do agree that debt forgiveness needs to be discussed, but it needs to be in sensible way. Otherwise Greece and Italy will become like the welfare clients you so vehemently oppose. 

 

No quote from me in the first part however my reply to your post is a s follows.
Italy just like Germany did what was good for them at the time. The other EU countries wanted them in and were willing to overlook their obvious flaws.  All Italy saw was the opportunity for cheap loans. So like someone giving an alcoholic a bottle of whiskey Italy was let in. Who is at fault? Does it matter? The outcome is the same if Italy defaults now the consequences are massive for the EU not just Italy.

Second part I dont get your point. You are assuming Italy is a human its a country different rules apply and the consequences are totally different.This is where Germany and EU are getting it totally wrong. The same blinkered attitude is being applied to the Brexit negotiations which is going to end badly for everyone because of that.

Reply to final point. Italy will not become welfare clients they will become failed states that will cause problems for everyone else especially those neighbouring them when the refugee crisis starts and for those that loaned them money. Italy is full of hard working people however the corruption has ruined the country. Applying made up fiscal rules does npothing to sort out corruption politicans will just make the people suffer more they just don't care. 5 Star are in power because of that, the EU needs to support them not keep applying the same stupid rules that have not worked for 10 years.

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

27 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Apologies to Greeks everywhere for the shorthand I will go for PIGS next time but I dont think many here know the abbreviation, I dropped Ireland as they are out of the woods.

PIGS is one of the best abbreviations ever, yes. 😂 I was being picky regarding the ethnicity of all. You just pray no Greek read this. They're feisty.

Corruption? Ruin Italy? See here. It's doing better than Slovakia and Croatia, both better economically. I think they're better, at least. Italy is tough, they have a long way to go to become a failed state.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

3 minutes ago, jaycee said:

No quote from me in the first part however my reply to your post is a s follows.
Italy just like Germany did what was good for them at the time. The other EU countries wanted them in and were willing to overlook their obvious flaws.  All Italy saw was the opportunity for cheap loans. So like someone giving an alcoholic a bottle of whiskey Italy was let in. Who is at fault? Does it matter? The outcome is the same if Italy defaults now the consequences are massive for the EU not just Italy.

Second part I dont get your point. You are assuming Italy is a human its a country different rules apply and the consequences are totally different.This is where Germany and EU are getting it totally wrong. The same blinkered attitude is being applied to the Brexit negotiations which is going to end badly for everyone because of that.

Reply to final point. Italy will not become welfare clients they will become failed states that will cause problems for everyone else especially those neighbouring them when the refugee crisis starts and for those that loaned them money. Italy is full of hard working people however the corruption has ruined the country. Applying made up fiscal rules does npothing to sort out corruption politicans will just make the people suffer more they just don't care. 5 Star are in power because of that, the EU needs to support them not keep applying the same stupid rules that have not worked for 10 years.

JC, 

here is the link to your qoute : https://community.oilprice.com/topic/4099-is-california-becoming-a-national-security-risk-to-the-us/?page=7&tab=comments# I was just talking about principles... 

Hope it did it correctly.

I not am disagreeing with you by the way. We are where we are and need to find a solution.

I have worked with Italian companies. And yes, there are great people. I have also seen why Italy is in the trouble they are in. You seem to feel the plight of the ordinary Italians and therefore sympathize and demonize the EU. I believe Italy needs support. Really. I also believe they need to take some responsibillity. I will call a few friends and ask them about 5 star, what I have seen in television does not paint the picture you do. 

 

[jaycee + 348]

37 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

agree on the practicality. But I hope you can also agree that there must be a mechanism for repeating the same mistake again? The main issue with Italy is the corruption and the in-efficiency of their industries. Anyone that has seen how Saipem, ENI and Prysmian works knows this. Leaving the EURO or forgiving debt won't fix this. As always when you point 1 finger at others... 

It does however have a lot of appeal for politicians trying to get elected - it is all EUs fault, ant ours... 

You have to think differently you are assuming you are dealing with a human again this is a country and politics is not black and white. The EU made a mistake letting Italy in and Italy falsified the accounts to do so but if I know that then the EU did too a compromise is needed. If you force one view only in politics then the other side will refuse to accept it. Again I point to the Brexit negotiations where the one sided deal is about to be rejected. The EU wants to continue to punish Italians for their politicians being corrupt pretty soon the people are going to get very annoyed and elect a separatist party, like the League, and then they will leave and the consequences though bad for Italy will be devastating for the EU, So far the Germanic/EU solution to Greece has not worked as they need even more loans now than was anticipated as the economy is ruined, Italians have seen this and realise that they need to change the medicine as the Germans have no idea what they are doing, apart from protecting their own banks, so more austerity is not something they will accept.