End of EV Subsidies?

1 hour ago, Red said:

You should have looked at some of the actual data (not projections) in my earlier link.  In the USA Tesla 3s are now a dominant force in high end purchases.  So expense is clearly not an inhibiting factor for many consumers.

It's amazing how intelligent people once they have invested (don't mean financially more time and effort) in one area it becomes more like a religion. Facts, data, science and so on can easily be ignored and only bits that fit within their belief system are cherry picked. I'm sure when peak oil demand occurs (I'm going for around 2025) they will have all sorts of ways to justify their statements. Seen the same occur in nuclear and coal. I do find it quite fascinating how people and companies react to such situations. Also find my some what hostile approach also gets good results.

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1 hour ago, Red said:

No, you should shut down what you consider is not accurate with something credible.

 

Read my earlier posts on the subject, I dont repeat myself ad infinitum unlike others I have a life outside of this website 

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17 minutes ago, DA? said:

Did you see the link to the article I posted in Seeking Alpha?

yeah read it, somebodies opinion that you like I could post one I like but can't be bothered you would not like it  we would discuss for a while and you would never change your mind then go again with somebody else. Rinse repeat.

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2 minutes ago, jaycee said:

Read my earlier posts on the subject, I dont repeat myself ad infinitum unlike others I have a life outside of this website 

I am happy to continue a thread - if you don't want to then maybe don't interrupt unless you are adding to it meaningfully.

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1 minute ago, jaycee said:

yeah read it, somebodies opinion that you like I could post one I like but can't be bothered you would not like it  we would discuss for a while and you would never change your mind then go again with somebody else. Rinse repeat.

Actually I do read opposing views, it's one of the reasons I'm here. The article as he says is his opinion but he does build this on facts and continuing trends. I do try and keep an open mind, I used to even think fracking was a good thing, turns out I was wrong.

Rinse repeat.

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(edited)

35 minutes ago, Red said:

I am happy to continue a thread - if you don't want to then maybe don't interrupt unless you are adding to it meaningfully.

Perhaps you should goto an EV and renewables website with DA to discuss the the same points forever?

Edited by jaycee
typo
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56 minutes ago, DA? said:

Actually I do read opposing views, it's one of the reasons I'm here. The article as he says is his opinion but he does build this on facts and continuing trends. I do try and keep an open mind, I used to even think fracking was a good thing, turns out I was wrong.

Rinse repeat.

yup maybe you shuold give up and talk about something else?

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1 hour ago, jaycee said:

Perhaps you should goto an EV and renewables website with DA to discuss the the same points forever?

Plenty of Dinosaur Juice Cultists do, but not for long.

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25 minutes ago, jaycee said:

yup maybe you shuold give up and talk about something else?

What and not have all this fun! I talk about it as this should be a concern to people in the fossil fuel world. 

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2 hours ago, DA? said:

I keep repeating myself as the same points are constantly repeated and the "rational arguments" are nothing of the sort more like repeated mantra from the Cult of Dinosaur Juice. Did you see the link to the article I posted in Seeking Alpha?

DA,

Yes I did read the seeking alpha article. When I have stopped laughing I will tell you why its completely and unequivocally wrong and the author has absolutely no clue what hes projecting.

But don't take my word for it look at some of the comments from manufacturing professionals.

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1 hour ago, Auson said:

DA,

Yes I did read the seeking alpha article. When I have stopped laughing I will tell you why its completely and unequivocally wrong and the author has absolutely no clue what hes projecting.

But don't take my word for it look at some of the comments from manufacturing professionals.

No I didn't read the comments but I can guess, I'm not joining that community, my morals only stretch so far. I bet they are as clueless as some here seem to be about how quickly the change is occurring. Ignoring the behind the scenes investments that are going on through out the supply chain. Sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the developments in associated technology. Probably the same ones that have been saying at every stage companies like Tesla can't manufacture an EV (or renewable energy or energy storage) to make a profit or whatever and were wrong, repeatedly.

Having worked in a number of industries it never stops amazing me how clueless the so called experts are. Reminds me of an interview on Bloomberg a number of years back with a chap that ran what was said to be the biggest oil trader company. In the interview he kept going on that the price of oil was about to go back up over $100. The interviewer asked him what he based this on. You should have seen his face, his reply was because he was the expert and knew. Of course he was completely wrong, but I'm sure he was able to justify his comments to keep his ego inflated.

I for one have to buy a "new" car, well it would have been new but what I'm going to do is buy an old ICE that will do the job whilst I wait for my Model 3. Then the old ICE will be kept around as a shit kicker.

Yes it does mean massive change and investment but that is beginning to occur. Take a look at whats happening in the VW group, for years they ignored the facts now they have to invest massive amount's to stay viable. Think I saw the new electric Porsche already has 3000 reservations (put money down) for it in Norway alone, they only sell 300 per year normally in Norway.

Again this subject is seen to be occurring in some sort of magic bubble were exterior factors don't change the equation. We'll soon see who the weak ones are when those sharks (short sellers) start betting against those that don't keep up. I should think quite a number of those manufacturing professionals work in these enterprises. Just feel sorry for those poor sods working at these companies that will be unemployed due to the experts making fools of themselves once again. 

just to be clear I do think this scenario is a little optimistic, but not that many years off.  

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58 minutes ago, DA? said:

No I didn't read the comments but I can guess, I'm not joining that community, my morals only stretch so far. I bet they are as clueless as some here seem to be about how quickly the change is occurring. Ignoring the behind the scenes investments that are going on through out the supply chain. Sticking their heads in the sand when it comes to the developments in associated technology. Probably the same ones that have been saying at every stage companies like Tesla can't manufacture an EV (or renewable energy or energy storage) to make a profit or whatever and were wrong, repeatedly.

Having worked in a number of industries it never stops amazing me how clueless the so called experts are. Reminds me of an interview on Bloomberg a number of years back with a chap that ran what was said to be the biggest oil trader company. In the interview he kept going on that the price of oil was about to go back up over $100. The interviewer asked him what he based this on. You should have seen his face, his reply was because he was the expert and knew. Of course he was completely wrong, but I'm sure he was able to justify his comments to keep his ego inflated.

I for one have to buy a "new" car, well it would have been new but what I'm going to do is buy an old ICE that will do the job whilst I wait for my Model 3. Then the old ICE will be kept around as a shit kicker.

Yes it does mean massive change and investment but that is beginning to occur. Take a look at whats happening in the VW group, for years they ignored the facts now they have to invest massive amount's to stay viable. Think I saw the new electric Porsche already has 3000 reservations (put money down) for it in Norway alone, they only sell 300 per year normally in Norway.

Again this subject is seen to be occurring in some sort of magic bubble were exterior factors don't change the equation. We'll soon see who the weak ones are when those sharks (short sellers) start betting against those that don't keep up. I should think quite a number of those manufacturing professionals work in these enterprises. Just feel sorry for those poor sods working at these companies that will be unemployed due to the experts making fools of themselves once again. 

just to be clear I do think this scenario is a little optimistic, but not that many years off.  

Ha ha all 'experts' are not the same and the speculation of an oil trader on what the price of a barrel will be have nothing to do with the realities of developing and manufacturing a real tangible product.

FYI the big car companies will wipe the floor with Tesla whether EVs are in demand or not. They have all the experience, facilities, workforce, cash. profits and scale. As yet they don't manufacture cars in Tents.

Why do you think Tesla is so heavily shorted by hedge funds ?

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4 hours ago, DA? said:

What and not have all this fun! I talk about it as this should be a concern to people in the fossil fuel world. 

Repeating the same stuff over and over again is tedious however and leaves one wondering why waste your life trying to preach to the unconvertable.  We have given you our answers, many times, your continuation to regurgitate the same stuff day in day out is pointless unless you have another agenda, and here we return to my original post. 
Your reasons for posting here have yet to be revealed by you your answer that you come seeking discussion is wearing thin as you get nothing new and nor do we. 

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2 hours ago, Auson said:

Ha ha all 'experts' are not the same and the speculation of an oil trader on what the price of a barrel will be have nothing to do with the realities of developing and manufacturing a real tangible product.

FYI the big car companies will wipe the floor with Tesla whether EVs are in demand or not. They have all the experience, facilities, workforce, cash. profits and scale. As yet they don't manufacture cars in Tents.

Why do you think Tesla is so heavily shorted by hedge funds ?

No all experts are not the same that's for sure.

Maybe Tesla will at some point go under. But their mission is to help bring the world to be more sustainable in less time than it would have taken. The other big car companies will wipe the floor with Tesla. Which ones? I think the last few months in the USA really show the demand for EV's, the Model 3 is the highest revenue car there is at present in the USA. When we look at that luxury car market it's out selling everything. Other car makers those with all the experience and so on will bring out cars that only challenge Tesla cars in over a years time, the Model S has been out for ever. Then the best these big car companies can do with all their cash is match the Model S & X. But don't think of Tesla as a car manufacture they are so much more, just the energy storage part of the company looks like it's going to be massive. Saying Tesla manufactures cars in a tent as if this statement was an argument winning point shows that you just like to listen to the FUD. It's a very clever move to use this type of construction (rate for 25 years) cheap, does the job, the economic choice.

I think Tesla is shorted so much because either these people don't understand what they are doing or they have money behind them to try and harm Tesla. How many billion $ have these numb skulls lost already? With the out of hours trading at present Tesla is around $360 (Ford under $10, GM under $37), those shorts are exposed to multiple billions of loss. It's not Tesla that's going to go under soon but some of these traders going short on Tesla.

The rocket industry thought they could never be put in the shade by a small private company that wanted to reuse rockets. Now those experts, those manufacturing professionals in the space industry are looking like first class prats. Only a fool bets against Musk, mistakes are made but these are built on.

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2 hours ago, jaycee said:

Repeating the same stuff over and over again is tedious however and leaves one wondering why waste your life trying to preach to the unconvertable.  We have given you our answers, many times, your continuation to regurgitate the same stuff day in day out is pointless unless you have another agenda, and here we return to my original post. 
Your reasons for posting here have yet to be revealed by you your answer that you come seeking discussion is wearing thin as you get nothing new and nor do we. 

Fine, bring something new to the table. Some credible argument, but all I seem to get for the most part is regurgitated mantra, a few cherry picked facts, FUD and a lack of understanding of the wider environment that the fossil fuel industry works in. I have repeatedly said why I'm here, you may read what I say but I don't think you take it in.  

If I'm wrong then I will gladly admit it, my ego can take it. But if many here are wrong and the fossil fuel industry goes in to decline in the not to distant future, it's not just ego's that get harmed it harms the economic stability of the world. Companies that are owned by shareholders should be run for the good of the shareholders, hiding the truth is not in their interest. This I would guess is pretty much fraud.

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15 minutes ago, DA? said:

No all experts are not the same that's for sure.

Maybe Tesla will at some point go under. But their mission is to help bring the world to be more sustainable in less time than it would have taken. The other big car companies will wipe the floor with Tesla. Which ones? I think the last few months in the USA really show the demand for EV's, the Model 3 is the highest revenue car there is at present in the USA. When we look at that luxury car market it's out selling everything. Other car makers those with all the experience and so on will bring out cars that only challenge Tesla cars in over a years time, the Model S has been out for ever. Then the best these big car companies can do with all their cash is match the Model S & X. But don't think of Tesla as a car manufacture they are so much more, just the energy storage part of the company looks like it's going to be massive. Saying Tesla manufactures cars in a tent as if this statement was an argument winning point shows that you just like to listen to the FUD. It's a very clever move to use this type of construction (rate for 25 years) cheap, does the job, the economic choice.

I think Tesla is shorted so much because either these people don't understand what they are doing or they have money behind them to try and harm Tesla. How many billion $ have these numb skulls lost already? With the out of hours trading at present Tesla is around $360 (Ford under $10, GM under $37), those shorts are exposed to multiple billions of loss. It's not Tesla that's going to go under soon but some of these traders going short on Tesla.

The rocket industry thought they could never be put in the shade by a small private company that wanted to reuse rockets. Now those experts, those manufacturing professionals in the space industry are looking like first class prats. Only a fool bets against Musk, mistakes are made but these are built on.

DA,

The hedge funds lost some money due to a margin call when Musk broke the law with his Twitter post. Even the board want to get rid of him. In my view the shorts will pay their 3% a year stock loan fee and wait until Tesla goes under or until there is the next recession and people realise they cannot buy $70-$100,000 cars on credit any longer.

I will declare my interest in all this I am long highly geared oil stocks. 

What is your interest here ?

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1 hour ago, Auson said:

DA,

The hedge funds lost some money due to a margin call when Musk broke the law with his Twitter post. Even the board want to get rid of him. In my view the shorts will pay their 3% a year stock loan fee and wait until Tesla goes under or until there is the next recession and people realise they cannot buy $70-$100,000 cars on credit any longer.

I will declare my interest in all this I am long highly geared oil stocks. 

What is your interest here ?

First sentence is incorrect. Second sentence is incorrect. The shorts can I guess keep paying although I don't know if there is time limits. Thats one hell of a gamble, just paying 3% per year is going to burn some. I can't afford $70-100,000 for a car that's why I'm going to get a Model 3 a lot less. Not sure where you are getting your "facts" as they aren't factual.

I'd prefer to waste my money down at the casino, seems less risky than going long on oil.

If I told you what my interest is here some other person will only go on about me repeating myself.

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29 minutes ago, DA? said:

First sentence is incorrect. Second sentence is incorrect. The shorts can I guess keep paying although I don't know if there is time limits. Thats one hell of a gamble, just paying 3% per year is going to burn some. I can't afford $70-100,000 for a car that's why I'm going to get a Model 3 a lot less. Not sure where you are getting your "facts" as they aren't factual.

I'd prefer to waste my money down at the casino, seems less risky than going long on oil.

If I told you what my interest is here some other person will only go on about me repeating myself.

The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filed a suit in New York accusing Musk of fraud last week, alleging that the tweets about financing for a go-private plan he abandoned just weeks later had no basis in fact, and said the market chaos that ensued hurt investors.

The SEC charged Tesla with failing to have required disclosure controls and procedures for Musk’s tweets. The SEC said the company had no way to determine if his tweets contained complete and accurate information.

Elon Musk is to step down as chair of Tesla for three years and pay a fine after reaching a deal with the US financial regulator over tweets he made about taking the firm into private ownership.

Under the settlement Musk would remain as chief executive but must leave his other post within 45 days. Both he and the company will each pay a $20m (£15.3m) fine.

and this 

https://news.sky.com/story/elon-musk-sued-by-british-diver-for-calling-him-paedophile-after-thai-cave-rescue-11500958

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1 hour ago, Auson said:

The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filed a suit in New York accusing Musk of fraud last week, alleging that the tweets about financing for a go-private plan he abandoned just weeks later had no basis in fact, and said the market chaos that ensued hurt investors.

The SEC charged Tesla with failing to have required disclosure controls and procedures for Musk’s tweets. The SEC said the company had no way to determine if his tweets contained complete and accurate information.

Elon Musk is to step down as chair of Tesla for three years and pay a fine after reaching a deal with the US financial regulator over tweets he made about taking the firm into private ownership.

Under the settlement Musk would remain as chief executive but must leave his other post within 45 days. Both he and the company will each pay a $20m (£15.3m) fine.

and this 

https://news.sky.com/story/elon-musk-sued-by-british-diver-for-calling-him-paedophile-after-thai-cave-rescue-11500958

Still doesn't make your first two sentences correct does it? It's old news about SEC.

Yes Musk did make a mistake about getting into a ridiculous twitter argument and he admits it.

If that really is all you've got it's not much. Yes he makes mistakes, I do, you do. But that doesn't take away the facts about how well Tesla is now doing. And I would suggest the stock market seems pretty happy about the way the company is going judging by it's share price.

On another note I see VW making moves towards Ford, maybe a takeover been considered. Although they would probably let them go bust then pay a few cents per dollar for it.

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Why did they get subsidies in the first place? I just bought a car and thank god it wasn't an EV. 

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1 minute ago, Bobby P said:

Why did they get subsidies in the first place? I just bought a car and thank god it wasn't an EV. 

What subsidies are you referring to? The government back loan that was paid back early? Clients getting a tax refund?

What makes you thank god your new car wasn't an EV? 

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(edited)

On 12/5/2018 at 7:29 AM, DA? said:

It's amazing how intelligent people once they have invested (don't mean financially more time and effort) in one area it becomes more like a religion.

Your posts make you look like a religious fanatic you have only one point of view and express it at every opportunity I have seem less fervent religious cultists. I would not class you as intelligent though you seem to just spout other people's propaganda almost as though you were programmed to give a response everytime something you can hang it on is mentioned. 

Edited by jaycee
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19 hours ago, Auson said:

FYI the big car companies will wipe the floor with Tesla whether EVs are in demand or not. They have all the experience, facilities, workforce, cash. profits and scale. As yet they don't manufacture cars in Tents.

I might remind you this question in a few years if we're all still here. The only thing one big car company, namely VW, can compete on with Tesla is grand statements by the boss. What was it Diess said recently, that they can make a direct competitor for the Model 3 that will sell at half the price? Yep, that was it. It cracked me up and not just me.

Hedge funds shorting Tesla got second-degree burns after the Q3 results, no?

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1 hour ago, jaycee said:

Your posts make you look like a religious fanatic you have only one point of view and express it at every opportunity I have seem less fervent religious cultists. I would not class you as intelligent though you seem to just spout other people's propaganda almost as though you were programmed to give a response everytime something you can hang it on is mentioned. 

I may come over as a religious fanatic, but if that is what a person is that cares about the environment and the world his son is growing up in then I am one. It makes little difference if I'm intelligent or not, the world is changing, that's not propaganda it's reality. Is that another shot that I'm actually a bot programmed by the looney left tree hugging conspirators? I'm just the reflection in the mirror of some here. 

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51 minutes ago, DA? said:

I may come over as a religious fanatic, but if that is what a person is that cares about the environment and the world his son is growing up in then I am one. It makes little difference if I'm intelligent or not, the world is changing, that's not propaganda it's reality. Is that another shot that I'm actually a bot programmed by the looney left tree hugging conspirators? I'm just the reflection in the mirror of some here. 

DA,

We've gone over this before caring about the environment is great and I also do. But you have stated on here that consumption can be ok and everyone on the planet can consume like we do in the developed world as long as its EV and renewable.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. Rampant consumption, consumerism and capitalism is bad. We enjoy such a good standard of living because we exploit other countries people and natural resources. While the dictators and corrupt governments of such countries get rich and watch their people starve. Wake up and look smell the coffee. We have children working in sweat shops in the far east and India making clothes and iPhones for us and miners working in dangerous conditions to mine the minerals for our consumption. My problem here is that EVs require more minerals and energy to manufacture that means more oil usage. If I was being selfish this is ok as I like you want to see $100 Brent soon and the way I see it the mass adoption of EVs will see us get there.    

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