Venezuela continues to sink in misery

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 minute ago, SERWIN said:

Makes you wonder where 309 million dollars are actually going..... Still, gov't is too cowardly to take on big business and the money it is feeding into the swamp.

The cost of fiefdoms......

[SERWIN + 749]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:47 AM, mthebold said:

What does US gun crime look like if you remove the liberal inner cities with gun control? 

Remove Chicago where guns are everywhere and I would bet it would be a surprising drop in the percentages on gun violence. The fact that ordinary people are not allowed to have guns gives the criminal element a great advantage there

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

8 minutes ago, SERWIN said:

Remove Chicago where guns are everywhere and I would bet it would be a surprising drop in the percentages on gun violence. The fact that ordinary people are not allowed to have guns gives the criminal element a great advantage there

Since I come from Illinois, I dare say that the "leadership" in Chicago makes a lot of money from the criminal elements in the city.  Yes, I mean direct payments and, the Chicago Special, kickbacks at all levels.  Chicago has and always has had the ability to cut violent crime down to a thing of the past, but instead they tend to develop incubators for the very element we are talking about.  Trying to clean out the Chicago Establishment has proven fatal for many, many well-intentioned Dudley-Do-Gooders over the last 100 years.

[6ACFC0 + 32]

What about the tragedies of other countries, such as those that have occurred in Africa?   Where was the outcry or action to save those people from the atrocities that have occurred there.  What about the US pulling out of Syria and the rejection of immigrants from other countries?  Dont kid yourselves, if the US goes into Venezuela it will not be to save the people, it will be for the oil or to prevent Russia or China from getting it.  And it would also serve a political purpose for Trump to re-energize his failing presidency. 

All in the name of "saving the good people of Venezuela".        

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

16 hours ago, mthebold said:

Exactly. 

If you remove both suicides and leftist, inner-city violence, gun crime in America is negligible.  If we also addressed our mental health epidemic instead of toying with antidepressants we don't understand, it would drop even further...

Careful now, you would likely need social programs to do this... Hmm getting in touch with your inner socialist are you? Or are you proposing some as un-constitutional as removing rigths from selected groups? Catch 22 situation rigth there

I do have a serious piont : Extreme leftist are dangerous to society; As are extreme Trump fans. Moderation and balance are needed. And sadly, very few on this forum seems to recognize that. 

[TXPower + 643]

9 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Careful now, you would likely need social programs to do this... Hmm getting in touch with your inner socialist are you? Or are you proposing some as un-constitutional as removing rigths from selected groups? Catch 22 situation rigth there

I do have a serious piont : Extreme leftist are dangerous to society; As are extreme Trump fans. Moderation and balance are needed. And sadly, very few on this forum seems to recognize that. 

Rasmus, I’m curious and mean no disrespect when I ask this.  From your words above you clearly personify the “extreme right” with President Trump, what American Political Figure(s) would you personify as the “extreme left”?  I ask so that I can better understand where you are coming from.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

11 minutes ago, TXPower said:

Rasmus, I’m curious and mean no disrespect when I ask this.  From your words above you clearly personify the “extreme right” with President Trump, what American Political Figure(s) would you personify as the “extreme left”?  I ask so that I can better understand where you are coming from.

I don't actually actually think that Trump personifies the "extreme rigth", but it is my impression that the "extreme rigth" does support Trump. And I think Trump embraces that suppport. This to me is actually a shame - I think Trump has addressed some global issues that needed addressing such as trade imbalances. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with how he does it. But at the core there is a neccessary discussion to have. Anyways, it all get clouded by Trumps confrontational style (which I think in part is to satisfy the "extreme right")

Unfortunately I don't follow American politics enough anymore to name the extreme left. My above post was meant to provoke @mthebold a little and because I feel a lot of these threads needs balance. Sorry if you took offense.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[TXPower + 643]

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't actually actually think that Trump personifies the "extreme rigth", but it is my impression that the "extreme rigth" does support Trump. And I think Trump embraces that suppport. This to me is actually a shame - I think Trump has addressed some global issues that needed addressing such as trade imbalances. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with how he does it. But at the core there is a neccessary discussion to have. Anyways, it all get clouded by Trumps confrontational style (which I think in part is to satisfy the "extreme right")

Unfortunately I don't follow American politics enough anymore to name the extreme left. My above post was meant to provoke @mthebold a little and because I feel a lot of these threads needs balance. Sorry if you took offense.

Oh no offense taken.  Sorry if I put words in your mouth, wasn’t my intent.  I overstated what my impression was.   

I’m trying to better understand where you are coming from.  You engage regularly concerning our political and social issues here in the US. I think I understand from some of your writing, you have lived in the US, thus you have legitimate context.

I agree with your comment on the need for balance.  But, striking a balance requires understanding.  I  am attempting to quantify your concept of balance, as a measure to my own.  I’m trying to gauge where and perhaps more importantly, who, the left and right spectrums are and what they want in your estimation.   

 

 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

2 hours ago, TXPower said:

Oh no offense taken.  Sorry if I put words in your mouth, wasn’t my intent.  I overstated what my impression was.   

I’m trying to better understand where you are coming from.  You engage regularly concerning our political and social issues here in the US. I think I understand from some of your writing, you have lived in the US, thus you have legitimate context.

I agree with your comment on the need for balance.  But, striking a balance requires understanding.  I  am attempting to quantify your concept of balance, as a measure to my own.  I’m trying to gauge where and perhaps more importantly, who, the left and right spectrums are and what they want in your estimation.   

I will come back on this one. Think the best way I can answer is by stating the challenges I think the West faces and different approaches I see different countries taking to these. 

A little busy right now - have a few things to finish. 

[Robert Ziegler + 121]

Looks like they are not very kind to visiting journalists either:

https://gazettereview.com/2018/12/german-journalist-billy-six-jailed-venezuela/

[Illurion + 894]

On 1/3/2019 at 2:15 PM, 6ACFC0 said:

What about the tragedies of other countries, such as those that have occurred in Africa?   Where was the outcry or action to save those people from the atrocities that have occurred there.  What about the US pulling out of Syria and the rejection of immigrants from other countries?  Dont kid yourselves, if the US goes into Venezuela it will not be to save the people, it will be for the oil or to prevent Russia or China from getting it.  And it would also serve a political purpose for Trump to re-energize his failing presidency. 

All in the name of "saving the good people of Venezuela".        

What happens in Africa is none of our business.

Africans have been enslaving each other,  and killing each other for many thousands of years.

 

We are pulling out of Syria because we eliminated ISIS,  which is what we went there for.

 

As for "immigrants",   ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS.  they are invaders.

 

As for you saying "IF THE US GOES INTO VENEZUELA"...

Trump has said he has no intention of interfering with what has happened in Venezuela.

Over and Over in this thread,  most of us do not believe the USA will intervene in Venezuela either.

Most believe Brazil or Colombia may do it,  or better yet,  that the Venezuelan people get off their ass and kill Maduro,  and free themselves.

[Illurion + 894]

16 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't actually actually think that Trump personifies the "extreme rigth", but it is my impression that the "extreme rigth" does support Trump. And I think Trump embraces that suppport. This to me is actually a shame - I think Trump has addressed some global issues that needed addressing such as trade imbalances. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with how he does it. But at the core there is a neccessary discussion to have. Anyways, it all get clouded by Trumps confrontational style (which I think in part is to satisfy the "extreme right")

Unfortunately I don't follow American politics enough anymore to name the extreme left. My above post was meant to provoke @mthebold a little and because I feel a lot of these threads needs balance. Sorry if you took offense.

other than the "shame" part,  i agree with most everything you have written,  with the exception that i believe you under-estimate the numbers, and type of Trumps supporters.

He does have the Far-Right,  but he also has the Right,  and most of the Center.

That is why he won the election.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 hours ago, Illurion said:

other than the "shame" part,  i agree with most everything you have written,  with the exception that i believe you under-estimate the numbers, and type of Trumps supporters.

He does have the Far-Right,  but he also has the Right,  and most of the Center.

That is why he won the election.

Clearly. I don't dispute this - he won legitimately. 

All I am saying is that on the International I believe there are sympathy for for example addressing trade imbalances. But I believe Trump could have achieve more by choosing a different strategy. I think he deliberately chose this confrontational style to satisfy certain domestic voter groups. And I question whether this is in the real best interest of these voter groups. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

12 hours ago, mthebold said:

Fair enough on the moderation.

As for our mental health crisis, I would argue that mental health in America was better before socialist policies.  This is because lower taxes/regulation left more wealth in local communities, and people took care of their own.  Personal responsibility and dependence on local community built social bonds, which in turn improved mental health.  This is consistent with the fact that human beings are social creatures.

This may work in small town rural setting, but there is plenty of empirical evidence that it does not in an urban setting. I think you actually agree.

Compare that to the Chinese, who handed all responsibility to government.  As a result, Chinese citizens feel justified in ignoring their fellow man.  Paying taxes absolves them from all guilt.  Absolution from guilt broke social bonds, and breaking social bonds results in terrible behavior: when pedestrians are accidentally hit by cars, the driver deliberately runs over them again to ensure they're dead.  This minimizes the driver's expenses. 

Agree. We even see this to a much lesser extent in European Welfare states - farming out care of families to the state. I strongly disapprove of this.

Although again - I think you deliberately choose to word your opinion in a very black and white way. I don't think anybody feels obsoveled of all guilt because they pay taxes. And the example you mention above with drivers probably have a lot of other reasons than taxes...

13 hours ago, mthebold said:

It's also important to note that the US has lost 100k+ factories in the last couple decades.  While half the country enjoyed economic good times, the other half has been living through the equivalent of the great depression.  We've also suffered inflation and wars against terrorism.  If America were to simply stop participating in globalism and tend to our own people, the mental health crisis would resolve itself.  This, of course, would be catastrophic for most of the world as they rely on our continued defense spending and trade imbalances.  If the world wants our continued support, perhaps the world should pay to fix our internal problems. 

Seriously? 

You know perfectly well that America (or for that matter any other Nation) does not do anything for purely altruistic reasons. Stop this "we are victims" theme.

If America stopped participating in Global trade today the cost of livng for Americans would shoot through the roof. 

I have stated many times - trade balances needs to be addressed. I don't think anybody disagrees. 

See comments above in bold

Other than views on culture, religion, human rights and maybe climate change I don't think we disagree terribly on the end goal. However, we likely disagree on the road on how to get there. If we could get rid of victim, low-bro memes attack type communication then we could likely have a meaningfull discussion.

 

[Illurion + 894]

15 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Clearly. I don't dispute this - he won legitimately. 

All I am saying is that on the International I believe there are sympathy for for example addressing trade imbalances. But I believe Trump could have achieve more by choosing a different strategy. I think he deliberately chose this confrontational style to satisfy certain domestic voter groups. And I question whether this is in the real best interest of these voter groups. 

Well,  that is a fair enough statement.

But,  on the other hand,  he DID win the election.

His confrontational style seems to work.

I for one like it.

 

AFTER A LONG LIFE,  THIS IS MY TAKE ON THE MODUS OPERANDI OF LEFTISTS:

 

The HATEFUL LEFT only want freedom for themselves.   

THEY can say anything (cursing in public) that they want,  but no one else can.   

THEY can complain, and protest,  and do anything they want,  but no one else can.

Their immediate response to US,  when WE want to say something,  or do something,  is that:

*  THEY IMMEDIATELY TRY TO SET THE RULES OF DISCOURSE IN THEIR FAVOR....   

(1)   THEY STATE THAT WE CAN ONLY SAY OR DO WHAT WE WANT TO SAY OR DO

AT A

(2)   "TIME" THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO THEM, 

AND AT A

(3)    "PLACE" THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO THEM, 

AND IN A

(4)     "TONE OF VOICE" THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO THEM.

 

EVERYTHING IS ALL ABOUT THEM......

 

They have what i mentioned in an earlier post as the Russian Syndrome:    ie:  A Soviet Premier once told the USA President that "WHAT IS OURS IS OURS,  WHAT IS YOURS IS DEBATABLE."

There is no debating with leftists..

They will never really listen.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 1/4/2019 at 12:08 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Careful now, you would likely need social programs to do this... Hmm getting in touch with your inner socialist are you? Or are you proposing some as un-constitutional as removing rigths from selected groups? Catch 22 situation rigth there

I do have a serious piont : Extreme leftist are dangerous to society; As are extreme Trump fans. Moderation and balance are needed. And sadly, very few on this forum seems to recognize that. 

Concealed carry permits for honest citizens is what is needed. The police obviously are not willing or able to go after the gangs and career criminals. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

9 hours ago, mthebold said:

It's important to note that socialist policies gutted rural communities, which drove more people to live in urban centers, which made it more difficult to form social bonds.  Socialist policies also encouraged poor urban populations who couldn't afford kids to have kids, which resulted in large populations of useless people.  Centralized government & its socialist policies have had a horribly disruptive effect on society.  Absent that disruption, we'd still have strong communities. 

As for the US playing "victim", I'd disagree with you on two points:

1)  The cost of living would not skyrocket if we stopped outsourcing.  In fact, the US is now re-shoring much manufacturing because automation has brought us to price parity in many industries.  The remaining industries - such as cheap plastic toys and Christmas ornaments - are things no one truly needs.  On the subject of automation, when companies sought cheap labor, they lost incentive to automate.  As a result, the decades-long effort to reduce manpower halted.  Had we simply allowed prices to remain 10% above what cheap foreigners could produce, automation and competition would have eventually brought us to current price levels, except without the loss of our industrial base, destruction of communities, a mental health crisis, an opioid epidemic, massive dependence on foreign politics, etc.  All things considered, outsourcing was a false economy. 

So, if it is all working out isn't just the market doing what is is supposed to - making you competetive again? This now re-shored, re-invigorated economy will probably soon enough have innovated to point where you will manufacture everything for the world again.... 

For that matter, I was alive before serious outsourcing.  Not only were manufactured goods reasonably affordable 25 years ago, but their quality was far higher.  E.g. I spend more today on bath towels because I must replace them every 3 years instead of every 10-15 like my parents did.  America hasn't gained anything from outsourcing. 

Why don you buy American then? Somebody with your views should. I forexample try to only buy local foodstuff and produce. Not for patriotic reasons, but rather for the health of my kids. 

2)  Half of America benefited from outsourcing while the other half suffered.  The coastal, urban centers built business around importing & business services while the rural communities fell into destitution.  In the last 10 years, America's "rust belt" has been in the equivalent of the Great Depression while the other half of the country enjoyed boom times.  So no, not every American has been a victim; just the half of America that suffered so the other half could enjoy slightly cheaper goods. 

fair enough. Ironically social-liberal redistribution policies could have mitigated this. 

We see the same thing in Europe - I personally believe that education and infrastructure programs are the only real remedy. Everything else is like peeing in your pants. It warms now, but... 

 

comments in bold

Edited January 7, 2019 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

12 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Concealed carry permits for honest citizens is what is needed. The police obviously are not willing or able to go after the gangs and career criminals. 

and who decides who is an honest citizen? 

[Refman + 207]

5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

and who decides who is an honest citizen? 

You're honest or law abiding until proven otherwise.

[TXPower + 643]

6 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

and who decides who is an honest citizen? 

The citizen does through their own actions.  With the absence of a criminal record, the citizen can aply for and go through the licensing criteria for concealed or open carry, depending on the state. Unless of course, the state is a constitutional carry state which enumerates the right to carry in their state constitution and assumes citizens will, only to be abridged for prohibited criminal conduct and possibly mental health issues.

Edited January 7, 2019 by TXPower
Word clarity

[SERWIN + 749]

On 1/4/2019 at 2:37 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't actually actually think that Trump personifies the "extreme rigth", but it is my impression that the "extreme rigth" does support Trump. And I think Trump embraces that suppport. This to me is actually a shame - I think Trump has addressed some global issues that needed addressing such as trade imbalances. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with how he does it. But at the core there is a neccessary discussion to have. Anyways, it all get clouded by Trumps confrontational style (which I think in part is to satisfy the "extreme right")

Unfortunately I don't follow American politics enough anymore to name the extreme left. My above post was meant to provoke @mthebold a little and because I feel a lot of these threads needs balance. Sorry if you took offense.

I have to agree with you Rasmus, I support Trump and what he is doing as far as the inequities in our trading situation, and I would have rather died than have Hilliary in the POTUS position. But on the flip side, I cringe when the news starts talking about him "tweeting". I have long said that we have polititians that have layed down on the job as far as International trade goes. We have been getting the short end of the stick for so long, no one realized how long the stick really is. I have a perfect solution for trade inequities. Take the foreign trade policy of every nation we deal with and simply exchange the names, like with China. Everywhere it said US replace it with China, and where it says China, put the US in that spot.  These countries with really unequal trade inequities will WANT to make changes really fast. Just turn the tables on them and let them do all the work...lol. Could you imagine them having to face their own horrible agreements. And no, there is no such thing as "FREE TRADE", someone, somewhere is going to get shafted. And it has mostly been us for decades now. I know Trump is a blowhard, but his intentions are really good

[ronwagn + 6,290]

15 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

and who decides who is an honest citizen? 

Those who have not been convicted of any crime above a misdemeanor. All such Americans should be granted such a permit unless mentally deficient. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by ronwagn

[Black Blade + 16]

Seeing that no Communist (Socialist)  state has ever been successful, it is upon the people of Venezuela who voted for Chavez and the mess that they now suffer under. People thought that they could "have a free lunch" as it were. The problem is that nothing is ever free. There are always strings attached. Elections have consequences and now the Venezuelan people are feeling the full effects of those elections. There's a saying that goes ... "Socialism if for the people, not the Socialists". Bad enough that even Venezuelan military are deserting and many are being arrested and tortured as they "might" be opposed to the government. Venezuela should be an important lesson for the rest of the world.

[jaycee + 348]

On 1/7/2019 at 10:29 PM, SERWIN said:

I have to agree with you Rasmus, I support Trump and what he is doing as far as the inequities in our trading situation, and I would have rather died than have Hilliary in the POTUS position. But on the flip side, I cringe when the news starts talking about him "tweeting". I have long said that we have polititians that have layed down on the job as far as International trade goes. We have been getting the short end of the stick for so long, no one realized how long the stick really is. I have a perfect solution for trade inequities. Take the foreign trade policy of every nation we deal with and simply exchange the names, like with China. Everywhere it said US replace it with China, and where it says China, put the US in that spot.  These countries with really unequal trade inequities will WANT to make changes really fast. Just turn the tables on them and let them do all the work...lol. Could you imagine them having to face their own horrible agreements. And no, there is no such thing as "FREE TRADE", someone, somewhere is going to get shafted. And it has mostly been us for decades now. I know Trump is a blowhard, but his intentions are really good

You do realise trade deals are normally bribes don't you? You give a country a good deal and then you get soft power in exchange. Take away the good deal and then people will start looking to others for a better deal from other powers. Short term yes the US will get a good deal but pretty soon a much better deal will be offered by China or Russia that takes the country away from dealing with the US so then the trade disappears along with the soft power that already has. You cannot  assess your relationship  with other countries on a profit and loss sheet if you do pretty soon you will have no trade whatsoever look at Turkey, Erdogan buying Russian weapons systems is a prime example plus he is now talking about not using the $ in trade deals with anyone which is actually more worrying as once the US lose the $ as the world's must have reserve currency the cost of servicing that large US debt pile gets a lot worse.. This is all obvious to those of us living outside the US and seeing what deals with the US really cost. Trump is a halfwit and has no idea about how the world actually works.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

On 1/4/2019 at 2:25 PM, TXPower said:

Oh no offense taken.  Sorry if I put words in your mouth, wasn’t my intent.  I overstated what my impression was.   

I’m trying to better understand where you are coming from.  You engage regularly concerning our political and social issues here in the US. I think I understand from some of your writing, you have lived in the US, thus you have legitimate context.

I agree with your comment on the need for balance.  But, striking a balance requires understanding.  I  am attempting to quantify your concept of balance, as a measure to my own.  I’m trying to gauge where and perhaps more importantly, who, the left and right spectrums are and what they want in your estimation.   

 

 

Sorry for taking a long time to come back on this one.

Anyways, I have to to the conclusion that the best way I can answer this one is to offer some context about myself and where I stand politically. Reason being that I tend to only follow American foreign and the headlines about Trump. 

For starters I should note that I actually love American culture. Specifically, Southern culture. I went to school in Georgia on a scholarship. More so than the academic experience the social experience shaped me. I have only respect for family values, the particular variety that you see in small southern towns. When adressing elders I use the Danish social equivalent of sir and ma'am. I never call my parents out publicly when they are wrong. For a long time I actually went back atleast once a year to go horseback riding in Appalachian mountains. I give my son an electronic ban if I catch him listening to rap music and I plan on showing him some sad neighbourhoods in Atlanta when he gets older, just to de-glorify that horrible rap music. I could continue ad infinitum. 

And I understand that these values and way of life "are under attack".

Proffessionally the man I consider my most important mentor I also met in the States. He is a retired VP with Norfolk Southern railroad. His view on the world and value system has meant a great deal to me as well. 

Onto me and my views - I believe that nothing comes free. If you want something out of life you need to create it. And I believe strongly in individual freedoms. However, I also believe in "social heritage" - when is a choice a choice? i.e. if I have been surround by a certain type behaviour since birth the likely default is that I will replicate that behaviour. On this I am decidly social-liberal. I do believe that the state needs to level the playing field. Simply because it in the best interest of society - it enhances social mobility and better educated populace is also more likely to make better life choices. A very difficult discussion is when levelling turns into coddling. The best way I can describe it is that here in Denmark I believe we have taken it too far. And I believe that you could / should do more in the states. As an example - we have such a generous welfare system that despite having 100k+ seasonal agriculture jobs these need to be filled by legal seasonal workers from Eastern Europe. So, our welfare is so generous that it is not worth for people to take seasonal work. that is a clear sign that something is out of whack. On the complete oppossite side of that spectrum the numbers speak for themselfes - in the 50s Danish per capita GDP was a fraction of the US. Today it is higher - meaning investing in education and infrastructure has worked. 

Combining my economic beliefs with values you end up with a fiscally conservative social-liberal that believes in doing the rigth thing and leading by example. I probably have an emphasis on the softer approach compared to most Americans because I have seen it work. I believe that I must do my part for the betterment of my community - not for kudos or altruistic reasons, but purely because I want to my kids to grow up in the type of community that I grew up in. 

Specifically on Trump (and some of his counterparts in Europe) - for me they display some values that are un-acceptable (and in-compatible with Christian inspired value set) and I must therefore chose an alterntive. I understand the lack of choice in a 2 party system and I also understand that Hillary was probably about the worst candidate that dems could have run. But still... 

To qoute Aaron Tippin : "You've got to stand for something". 

I hope that provides some understanding. 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Rasmus Jorgensen