"Brothers" in Arms: Kremlin Presses On With Turkey Missile Contract

[rainman + 263]

The Kremlin said on Wednesday Russia was pressing ahead with a contract to deliver advanced S-400 missile air defense systems to Turkey despite the U.S. State Department approving the possible sale of a rival U.S. missile defense system to Ankara. The Pentagon said on Tuesday that the U.S. State Department had approved a possible $3.5 billion sale of Patriot air and missile defense systems to NATO-ally Turkey, after notifying Congress of the certification. Russia and Turkey have already concluded a deal for Ankara to buy the rival Russian S-400 system with deliveries expected to begin next year despite the United States and NATO member countries, already wary of Russia’s presence in the Middle East, warning it is not compatible with NATO defenses. Speaking to reporters on a conference call, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that the Russian and U.S. transactions should be seen as separate from each other, and that Russia was in the process of fulfilling the terms of the deal to supply Ankara with S-400s.
 

[Pavel + 384]

More arms are always the answer. 

[pinto + 293]

U.S. arms deal with Turkey only makes sense if they have agreed to stop making similar arms deals with Russia. As we see they are not...

[damirUSBiH + 327]

By selling advanced arms you make other countries dependent of you. No wonder Russia wants to sell arms to Turkey. Arms=control

[50 shades of black + 254]

According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute: 
The US is world's biggest arms producer, 57% of all arms sold accounted by US companies.
Russia becomes world's second biggest arms producer replacing the UK. (9.5%)
Turkey’s arms sales rises 24% 

 

China is excluded 

[ThunderBlade + 231]

10 minutes ago, damirUSBiH said:

By selling advanced arms you make other countries dependent of you. No wonder Russia wants to sell arms to Turkey. Arms=control

Yep. The customers become reliant of the seller for upgrades, parts and education. Especially for arms, it's valid for decades.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

12 hours ago, 50 shades of black said:

According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute: 
The US is world's biggest arms producer, 57% of all arms sold accounted by US companies.
Russia becomes world's second biggest arms producer replacing the UK. (9.5%)
Turkey’s arms sales rises 24% 

 

China is excluded 

My source is more accurate and inclusive IMHO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry 

4

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

18 hours ago, rainman said:

The Kremlin said on Wednesday Russia was pressing ahead with a contract to deliver advanced S-400 missile air defense systems to Turkey despite the U.S. State Department approving the possible sale of a rival U.S. missile defense system to Ankara.

I think Putin is just highlighting the hypocrisy of the arms sales trade.  The OP reads like someone's trip report about competing arms sellers, not two of the most powerful nations on earth.  In the end, Turkey gets a missile defense system, period.  Who they choose to point it at down the road is another matter entirely.

[John Foote + 1,135]

They sell the Turks S-400s, and the US/NATO will seriously dial in the counter-measures to it. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

And this is how escalation works, friends.  Tit for tat at a seemingly small scale at first, and then the bigger stuff.

[Sukumar Ray + 52]

USA and Russia both want their share of pie in the missile market because it gives them big buck. But why is Turkey buying all of these ? Is Turkey afraid of any country ? After few decades It would be India and China who will also be in the Missile market to sell their defense technology to  other countries. 

Most of the countries in the world are Arms Maniac !!  They are all in the Arms race and wants nuclear technology and bombs to show case their strength. To be very frank, if WW3 breaks out , these mindless buying of USA  patriot or Russian S-400 will be useless . The People who will survive WW3 will be people who are defenseless against all these powerful weapons. Like poorest countries of the world 

[Akin Koksal + 3]

When your supposed-to-be-ally ignore you, such as not selling Patriots for the past 5-6 years, partnering with PKK rather than its ally Turkey in Syria, putting a potential halt to F35 deliveries while Turkey is part of its development, it comes natural that Turkey looks into other options. USA is no more the big brother of the world and clearly run by a crazy person. Even though I do not support Erdogan, S400 purchase is the right thing to do. 

[Illurion + 894]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:11 AM, 50 shades of black said:

According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute: 
The US is world's biggest arms producer, 57% of all arms sold accounted by US companies.
Russia becomes world's second biggest arms producer replacing the UK. (9.5%)
Turkey’s arms sales rises 24% 

 

China is excluded 

It is the "CHINA EXCLUDED" part that interested me.

Russia has made many mistakes selling their weapons to China.

The Chinese steal American military technology,   BUT THE RUSSIANS FREELY GIVE IT TO THE CHINESE FOR A SMALL PRICE.

The Chinese then REVERSE-ENGINEERED the weapons they bought from the Russians,  and made their own versions.

THAT IS THE WAY IT HAS BEEN FOR DECADES.

Lately however,  the Chinese have reached the point where they are creating their own technology.

BUT DO THEY SELL MUCH OF IT....?

Worldwide Arms Sales is a big business,   i would like to know what percentage of arms sales the Chinese make now.

Then take that,   and multiply it as the Chinese get better and better at it.

[Illurion + 894]

1 minute ago, Akin Koksal said:

When your supposed-to-be-ally ignore you, such as not selling Patriots for the past 5-6 years, partnering with PKK rather than its ally Turkey in Syria, putting a potential halt to F35 deliveries while Turkey is part of its development, it comes natural that Turkey looks into other options. USA is no more the big brother of the world and clearly run by a crazy person. Even though I do not support Erdogan, S400 purchase is the right thing to do. 

I look at it differently.

The Patriots are geared toward taking down Russian targets,  and the S-400's are geared toward taking down American targets.

So my take on this is that Turkey is taking the opportunity to be able to defend themselves from both sides if necessary.

Remember,  Erdogan is the real nutcase,    he sees himself as the Mahdi,  the future leader of the Islamic World.

[Akin Koksal + 3]

10 hours ago, Illurion said:

I look at it differently.

The Patriots are geared toward taking down Russian targets,  and the S-400's are geared toward taking down American targets.

So my take on this is that Turkey is taking the opportunity to be able to defend themselves from both sides if necessary.

Remember,  Erdogan is the real nutcase,    he sees himself as the Mahdi,  the future leader of the Islamic World.

Well, you better read some specs of both systems. They are not geared towards any specific system; they are defence systems that can be fired against any detected flying object. NATO’s concern, sorry USA’s concern, is that S400 Radar system will collect data and figure out how to detect F35. Keep in mind Greece has an operational S300 system since 1990s. Obviously there is some double standard going on here...

I don’t think USA will proceed with Patriot or F35 deliveries if Turkey brings in S400s. Another note, Russia and Turkey also signed know-how transfer on S400 while USA or China won’t do the same. Hence S400 was selected. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Akin Koksal

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

10 hours ago, Akin Koksal said:

Well, you better read some specs of both systems. They are not geared towards any specific system; they are defence systems that can be fired against any detected flying object. NATO’s concern, sorry USA’s concern, is that S400 Radar system will collect data and figure out how to detect F35. Keep in mind Greece has an operational S300 system since 1990s. Obviously there is some double standard going on here...

I don’t think USA will proceed with Patriot or F35 deliveries if Turkey brings in S400s. Another note, Russia and Turkey also signed know-how transfer on S400 while USA or China won’t do the same. Hence S400 was selected. 

I agree that either system appear to do the same or at least similar mission.  So it's "which arms dealer will give me credit and deliver systems to defend my country?".  Turkey, last I read, can't pay for much of any types of imports at this time in their financial reality.  

Same for the F-35: Unless we want to give them the world's most expensive, most high technology fighter in the world, for free or at least at an incredible discount, they aren't going to get them anyway.  Countries regularly take second best so they at least have the numbers, but at a win/loss ratio of 20:1 between the F-35 and all other fighter jets in the world, second best only helps in regional conflicts; not against the U.S. or Russia.  I contend that if they were to get into a military exchange with either of those adversaries, the battle has already been decided long ago.

Good reading about the F35:

Five Reasons The U.S. Air Force Should Be Buying F-35 Fighters Much Faster

[Illurion + 894]

14 hours ago, Akin Koksal said:

Well, you better read some specs of both systems.

Not necessary.

What i said was correct.

It is the "ANY DETECTED FLYING OBJECT" that is the problem with your post.

Our systems are programmed not to home in on our own aircraft without an over-ride..

Most everyone knows this.

So Turkey knows full well that a Patriot has little chance of homing in on what the machine knows is a "friendly" American Aircraft.

So Turkey would buy Patriots to shoot at everyone but Americans.

The Russians do the same thing.   So Turkey would buy S-400's to shoot at everyone but Russians.    (Interestingly,  both Turkey and Syria have shot down a Russian aircraft in the last year.  Each using an older style of Russian missile.   Were the planes not broadcasting as "friendly" ?,  or were the old Russian systems not able to detect their status ?

THAT is something you might want to go read specs about if you are interested.

But don't be surprised if the specs are vague on the subject.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by Illurion

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 12/22/2018 at 4:38 PM, Dan Warnick said:

Good reading about the F35:

Five Reasons The U.S. Air Force Should Be Buying F-35 Fighters Much Faster

What the F-35 is absolutely great at is integrating information in the modern battlefield. Avionics rule the modern battlefield in a classical war, if there is such a thing anymore. A F-18 can or Strike Eagle could be made to do most of what a F-35 does from a battle field integration/information perspective, and in term on handling, and payload, the old dogs are far superior and aren't single engine. vulnerable to lucky bbs or the odd engine failure. F-35 is semi-stealthy, which F-15/18s are anything but. An F-35 gains much of it's stealth thru active deception radar systems, as opposed to a F-22 which is truly stealthy, but to maintain those non-reflective surface characteristics is very expensive. 

USSR and USA are not going to go head to head. Western Europe is safe from invasion. The overkill factor in head-to-head for the US is immense, and the USSR air to air prowess is historical dog poo. There have been a few ground skirmishes between the two sides in Syria, very lopsided to the US. Turks had no challenges knocking a couple Russians out of the sky with NATO girl. In the end, a lot of it is training more than the system. As the Red Baron said, "It's not the crate (plane), it's the man in the crate.

I am all for a percentage of the force being the latest tech. But for our most likely wars, bring on the A-10, the B-52, tankers, cruise missiles, AWACs, C-130s, Compass Call. etc.. Keep the B-2s at home in Kansas. if there is a real chance of capable air to air opponents, a squadron of F-22s will take care of that. And even the most stealthy planes becomes visible once you use active systems or open weapons bays. Stealth is best for sneaking to where you are going to fight, not actually fighting. Then sneaking back out.

I'd like to see a NATO country buy S400s. It would greatly speed up developing the countermeasures. When I was involved in Gulf War 1, the fear for me was an American system, the iHawk. My plane didn't have detection capabilities to know if we were being tracked or scanned. US Navy (I was USAF) folks actually bought fuzz busters, because the iHawk operated on the same band. The Soviet/Russian systems, they are quite capable SAM systems, but we knew how to defeat them, the real trick is knowing you are really targeted. It didn't the Iraqis long to learn if they activated their radars the operators were about to meet there maker. Love a good HARM (high speed anti radiation missile). 

[specinho + 467]

On 12/19/2018 at 11:58 PM, rainman said:

The Kremlin said on Wednesday Russia was pressing ahead with a contract to deliver advanced S-400 missile air defense systems to Turkey despite the U.S. State Department approving the possible sale of a rival U.S. missile defense system to Ankara. The Pentagon said on Tuesday that the U.S. State Department had approved a possible $3.5 billion sale of Patriot air and missile defense systems to NATO-ally Turkey, after notifying Congress of the certification. Russia and Turkey have already concluded a deal for Ankara to buy the rival Russian S-400 system with deliveries expected to begin next year despite the United States and NATO member countries, already wary of Russia’s presence in the Middle East, warning it is not compatible with NATO defenses. Speaking to reporters on a conference call, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that the Russian and U.S. transactions should be seen as separate from each other, and that Russia was in the process of fulfilling the terms of the deal to supply Ankara with S-400s.
 

Turkey has always been a sensitive area between europe and the East. An allergic launching pad.......... for all constipation and diarhea..... Love to see Tom & Jerry animation taking place here because of this deal...... our old time favourite past time show........

[NASCARNASAfla + 3]

Interesting development, as Russia and Turkey fought for 350 years, and whenever Russia got too much of an advantage, the Great Powers (UK and France) would step in, as in the Crimean War, and the Treaty of San Stephano (creating a "Big Bulgaria") being abrogated by the Great Powers 3 month's later during the Treaty of Berlin.

Incidentally, the freed Orthodox Christian countries were free to continue with their own, newly established (having formerly being under Greek Orthodox control, from Constantinople/Stambul/Istanbul). Russia never tried to sweep the Balkan Orthodox Christian's into the Russian Orthodox fold. This is another reason why I think that (mostly eastern) Ukraine's recent break from the Russian Orthodox fold is no big deal.

https://www.realclearhistory.com/articles/2018/06/14/10_most_important_russo-turkish_wars_323.html

[Illurion + 894]

23 hours ago, John Foote said:

.

I am all for a percentage of the force being the latest tech.

But for our most likely wars, bring on the A-10, the B-52, tankers, cruise missiles, AWACs, C-130s, Compass Call. etc..

Absolutely fantastic point.

That "point" is what,  as far as i am concerned,  IS THE GREATEST WEAKNESS THE USA POSSESSES.

We are busy spending all our money on a FEW NEW WEAPONS.

And practically nothing on THOSE THAT MADE US GREAT.

The Russians are building new aircraft also,  BUT THEY ARE ALSO STILL BUILDING OLDER, CHEAPER AIRCRAFT.

At some point in time,   we will find ourself with a FEW,  very complex, expensive weapons,  while our enemy will have far more,  less sophisticated,  but cheaper weapons.

WHO WILL WIN ?

 

The science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke recognized this about the USA a long time ago,  AND WROTE A 10 PAGE SHORT STORY ABOUT IT..   His story is called:   SUPERIORITY.

 

I first read the story in the 1960's in Junior High.

 

Amazing read.

 

And i am not the only one to remember this.

Back in 2014,  a writer already wrote an article stating how the USA's reliance on the F35 falls prey to what Clarke wrote about.

You can read the article here:

 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/arthur-c-clarke-warned-us-about-the-f-35-and-its-damnin-1585237830

and read SUPERIORITY here:

http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

 

Remember,   Clarke wrote this story almost 50 years ago.

The man was a genius.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 12/20/2018 at 8:47 PM, Sukumar Ray said:

USA and Russia both want their share of pie in the missile market because it gives them big buck. But why is Turkey buying all of these ? Is Turkey afraid of any country ? After few decades It would be India and China who will also be in the Missile market to sell their defense technology to  other countries. 

Most of the countries in the world are Arms Maniac !!  They are all in the Arms race and wants nuclear technology and bombs to show case their strength. To be very frank, if WW3 breaks out , these mindless buying of USA  patriot or Russian S-400 will be useless . The People who will survive WW3 will be people who are defenseless against all these powerful weapons. Like poorest countries of the world 

" Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth." Jesus

https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/5-5.htm

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 12/24/2018 at 6:42 PM, Illurion said:

Absolutely fantastic point.

That "point" is what,  as far as i am concerned,  IS THE GREATEST WEAKNESS THE USA POSSESSES.

We are busy spending all our money on a FEW NEW WEAPONS.

And practically nothing on THOSE THAT MADE US GREAT.

The Russians are building new aircraft also,  BUT THEY ARE ALSO STILL BUILDING OLDER, CHEAPER AIRCRAFT.

At some point in time,   we will find ourself with a FEW,  very complex, expensive weapons,  while our enemy will have far more,  less sophisticated,  but cheaper weapons.

WHO WILL WIN ?

 

The science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke recognized this about the USA a long time ago,  AND WROTE A 10 PAGE SHORT STORY ABOUT IT..   His story is called:   SUPERIORITY.

 

I first read the story in the 1960's in Junior High.

 

Amazing read.

 

And i am not the only one to remember this.

Back in 2014,  a writer already wrote an article stating how the USA's reliance on the F35 falls prey to what Clarke wrote about.

You can read the article here:

 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/arthur-c-clarke-warned-us-about-the-f-35-and-its-damnin-1585237830

and read SUPERIORITY here:

http://www.mayofamily.com/RLM/txt_Clarke_Superiority.html

 

Remember,   Clarke wrote this story almost 50 years ago.

The man was a genius.

The A10 was considered low tech and has required great effort to fight those who only want high tech airplanes. The question is can it stand against modern anti aircraft missile systems?

We spend far too much for what we get compared to Russia and China. We spend like cost is not a factor while we are broke. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by ronwagn

[John Foote + 1,135]

15 hours ago, ronwagn said:

The A10 was considered low tech and has required great effort to fight those who only want high tech airplanes. The question is can it stand against modern anti aircraft missile systems?

Against a top modern force the A10 doesn't stand a chance. But in our mostly likely wars, it is a fantastic, superior weapon, that oddly enough we don't seem to want. No money in an inexpensive weapons system that maintains cheaply.  Seriously loiter time, caries a lot, hard to knock out of the sky with small arms. And not that it matters, but a fun plane for the pilot.

[Illurion + 894]

On 2/3/2019 at 12:34 PM, John Foote said:

Against a top modern force the A10 doesn't stand a chance. But in our mostly likely wars, it is a fantastic, superior weapon, that oddly enough we don't seem to want. No money in an inexpensive weapons system that maintains cheaply.  Seriously loiter time, caries a lot, hard to knock out of the sky with small arms. And not that it matters, but a fun plane for the pilot.

My Father died in 1994.  he was Air Force.   He was MMS.  Loved the A10.    He used to say that in a world of Fast, High Flying craft,  the A10 was our "ace in the hole",  a deadly "slower, and low flying craft that filled a "special notch" that no other military had a similar craft to fill.