Vainly? Merkel, Macron Demand Russia Release Ukrainian Seame

[Pavel + 384]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Emmanuel Macron demanded on Friday that Russia release Ukrainian sailors who were seized along with their ships last month. Moscow accused the 24 sailors of illegally crossing the Russian border. Ukraine said Russia captured the two small gunboats and one tugboat illegally and accused Moscow of military aggression. “We demand safe, free and unimpeded transit for all ships through the Kerch Strait and the immediate and unconditional release of all illegally detained Ukrainian seafarers,” Merkel and Macron said in a joint statement.

[damirUSBiH + 327]

Seriously? I thought they were not using phrases anymore

[ThunderBlade + 231]

There's going to be more fun with this headline! I mean, enough with hypocrisy...

[Pavel + 384]

But they'll keep stuffing Putin's pockets with energy purchases...

[rainman + 263]

Did they say what will they do if Putin doesn’t comply with their demands? Call him a bad guy or worse get angry at him? 

[Tomasz + 1,608]

23 minutes ago, Pavel said:

But they'll keep stuffing Putin's pockets with energy purchases...

Sorry we are not going to buy your LNG thats something like 50 % more expensive.

Sell it cheaper than Gazprom or find other buyer in Asia which will pay more but please dont mix politics with bussines.

There is a global LNG shortage coming in 20s so it should not be a problem.

Apart from that Maidan was at least US backed if you remember John McCain and Victoria "fuck the Eu" Nuland in Kiev.

Im courious what would be your reaction if Russia would like to build its military base on Cuba or invite  Mexico to chinese-russian alliance. 

Because if weak states like Iran or Syria a couple thousands kilometers from nearest US border is case for national security it would be national disaster.

If you want Ukraine to join NATO or build  base on Crimea you only need to win WW3 because Moscow will not pull back to Kremlin Castle.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Tomasz

[Pavel + 384]

21 minutes ago, Tomasz said:

Sorry we are not going to buy your LNG thats 50 % more expensive. Sell it cheaper than Gazprom or find other buyer in Asia which will pay more but please dont mix politics with bussines.

Apart from that Maidan was at least US backed if you remember McCain and Victoria "fuck the Eu" Nuland in Kiev.

Im courious what would be your reaction if Russia would like to build its military base on Cuba or invite  Mexico to chinese-russian alliance. If Iran or Syria is case for national security it would be national disaster.

Hmmm... mostly politics and business are going together. There are so many oligarchs in Russia who “hardly work” for Putin and Government. And, when is their work “inadequate”, they ends as Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Breakpoint between politics and business, not just in Russia ( let’s say Russia is worst example) is not possible..

[ThunderBlade + 231]

There is so many examples from past when they had to sent demand , and they didn't do that. Because of that, Putin from today is stronger than Putin from yesterday.

[SERWIN + 749]

2 hours ago, rainman said:

Did they say what will they do if Putin doesn’t comply with their demands? Call him a bad guy or worse get angry at him? 

Macron will pout, buy more energy at the inflated prices,invite Trudeau over and eat more snails...... I really don't think Putin cares what they do, do you?

[Karl V + 33]

Words and paper are patient .

When both are of age 90+, their Alzheimer will not remember anymore .

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

On 12/29/2018 at 1:48 AM, rainman said:

Did they say what will they do if Putin doesn’t comply with their demands? Call him a bad guy or worse get angry at him? 

Angela might give him one of her looks!

[Illurion + 894]

On 12/28/2018 at 1:48 PM, rainman said:

Did they say what will they do if Putin doesn’t comply with their demands? Call him a bad guy or worse get angry at him? 

I am an American,  but i do not exactly share my country's view on the Crimea / Ukraine ongoing issue,  which keeps creeping forward with tit for tat stuff that has currently taken us to a dispute about the Kerch Bridge and the strait.

I believe the whole thing has been handled badly by both sides.

To put things in perspective...

 

If i recall,  a long time ago,  the old USSR owned both the Crimea,  and what we now call Ukraine.

Many, Many,  years ago,  the Crimea   (which included ports and military bases that are critical to the USSR) ,  and Ukraine  (called "the Ukraine" back then,  and which had far fewer critical assets)   were merged by the old USSR into one single state called UKRAINE.

As they did most everywhere in the USSR,  the government then began a program of "forced resettlement" into the new state,  in order to "merge the two peoples together."

In addition,  other citizens from other Soviet states were also sent to the new UKRAINE,  and so were many military servicemen of course.

SO,  over time,   everyone intermarried with each other,  and they all became UKRAINIANS...

Great.......  One Big Happy State....

Then 30 years ago the USSR became RUSSIA.

Then some 50 years after the merger,  and a few years ago,  UKRAINE DECIDED TO BREAK OFF ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA...

 

Big Problem... 

 

ALL OF THESE FAMILIES WITH FAMILY MEMBERS WITH DIFFERENT NATIONAL ALLEGIANCES ARE NOW BEING BROKEN APART...

 

Ukraine is made up of Russian citizens from all over the place.:   CRIMEA,  THE UKRAINE, and everywhere else.

 

Not all of those people wanted to break off from Russia.

 

So,  a mini-civil-war occurred,  and the result was that Russia stepped in,   AND TOOK BACK THE CRIMEA,  IN ORDER TO REGAIN CONTROL OF THE CRITICAL PORTS AND MILITARY BASES THAT IT STILL HAD THERE.

 

Perfectly understandable...

 

All they did was reverse what they had done long ago.

 

When it happened,  i saw no problem with it,  as the Crimea has been RUSSIAN LAND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS...

 

But,  then Crimean rebels,  apparently with the help of rogue Russians,  shot down a Malaysian Civilian Airliner that was legally crossing their territory, killing hundreds of women and kids,    and suddenly,  the mini-civil-war is a MAJOR INTERNATIONAL EVENT THAT EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY FEELS OBLIGATED TO TAKE A SIDE ON...

 

THE USA AND THE EU TOOK THE SIDE OF UKRAINE...

 

IN MY OPINION,  WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SIDE OF MALAYSIA..

 

Which brings us to the Kerch Strait.     When Ukraine and Crimea separated,  Russia and Ukraine came to an agreement as to a "specific channel route" for Ukrainian shipping to use.

That agreement has held without problem for years.

Until now.

WHY NOW ?

Because of the KERCH BRIDGE...

 

Because of the separation,  a section of Russian / Crimean territory was left "cut-off" from the rest of Russia / Crimea..

 

It was agreed by Ukraine that Russia could build a BRIDGE across the mouth of the Kerch Strait for Russia to regain access to it's land.

 

Sounds fair,  and is no big deal... RIGHT...?

 

WRONG...

 

That bridge has now been built.

 

And almost immediately,  the Russians are using the "architecture" of the steel bridge,  AS A TOOL TO BLOCK UKRAINIAN SHIPS FROM ENTERING THE KERCH STRAIT.

 

The day they blocked the Kerch Strait at the Kerch Bridge,  the Russians , simultaneously stopped,  seized,  and arrested Ukrainian seamen on several Ukrainian ships that happened to be passing through the Kerch Straits Passage at the time.

All the evidence shows the Ukrainian ships were legally inside the agreed upon passage.

 

So the arrest of the Ukrainian Seaman is illegal...

 

Why is Russia breaking it's own law and doing this ?

 

I BELIEVE THIS WHOLE THING IS A PLOY OF SOME KIND BY PUTIN AND RUSSIA,  TO GET SOMETHING FROM UKRAINE.

 

At this time,  NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT THE RUSSIANS WANT FROM UKRAINE...

AND IF UKRAINE KNOWS,  THEY ARE NOT TELLING...

 

So,  as far as i am concerned,  this whole thing is some kind of "secret negotiation" between Russia and Ukraine,  and i do not believe the USA,  or anyone else,  should get involved.

As for the seamen,   they are probably being treated well,  as Russia has no reason to hurt them,  THE SEAMEN ARE THE LEVERAGE FOR RUSSIA IN THIS WHOLE THING.....

 

So,  in conclusion,   i believe that the USA,  if it wants to do anything,  should find out what Russia wants from Ukraine,  and if it is reasonable,  encourage Ukraine to give it to Russia.   

Then the seamen will be released,  and everyone will live happily ever after.

But,  instead,   the EU,  and USA are discretely playing games with their ships,  which will cause nothing but further trouble.

 

But what do i know...   i am just a poor old boy from Florida...

Edited December 31, 2018 by Illurion

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Illurion said:

THE USA AND THE EU TOOK THE SIDE OF UKRAINE...

 

IN MY OPINION,  WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SIDE OF MALAYSIA..

Good point there.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

14 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Good point there.

Actually, should have taken the side of Holland.  The passengers on that flight were Dutch.  Their bodies were (eventually) taken back to Holland for burial.  The King personally escorted the funeral procession.  All motorists on the way (specifically, the opposite direction on the autoroute) stopped their cars, and stood in respect and saluted as the king and motorcade passed.  Same for motorists on cross bridges. 

That airplane was at 35,000 feet.  It was hit by a Russian missile.  That Russian missile mobile carriage was brought across the Ukraine-Russia Border by Russian troops.  OK, it was fired by paramilitaries, nobody knows who exactly, but without Russia, that would never have happened.  Russia has brought APCs, tanks, gun carriages, artillery, and so-called "volunteer" military troops over the Donbas Border, to occupy the Donesk and Luhansk specifically to destabilize Ukraine.  It has massed five divisions just over the border from Kharkov for the specific purpose of invading and seizing the City, on the slightest pretext.  Russia is copying what Hitler did with Poland, where SS operatives went over the Border, then re-crossed and shot up a radio station on the Border, pretending to be Polish troops, to give the pretext for invading Poland.  Don't kid yourself, Putin is the bad guy here. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Jan van Eck

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

14 hours ago, Illurion said:

If i recall,  a long time ago,  the old USSR owned both the Crimea,  and what we now call Ukraine.

Many, Many,  years ago,  the Crimea   (which included ports and military bases that are critical to the USSR) ,  and Ukraine  (called "the Ukraine" back then,  and which had far fewer critical assets)   were merged by the old USSR into one single state called UKRAINE.

As they did most everywhere in the USSR,  the government then began a program of "forced resettlement" into the new state,  in order to "merge the two peoples together."

.

Then 30 years ago the USSR became RUSSIA.

Then some 50 years after the merger,  and a few years ago,  UKRAINE DECIDED TO BREAK OFF ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA...

 

ALL OF THESE FAMILIES WITH FAMILY MEMBERS WITH DIFFERENT NATIONAL ALLEGIANCES ARE NOW BEING BROKEN APART...

 

Ukraine is made up of Russian citizens from all over the place.:   CRIMEA,  THE UKRAINE, and everywhere else.

 

 

 

When it happened,  i saw no problem with it,  as the Crimea has been RUSSIAN LAND FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS...

 

But,  then Crimean rebels,  apparently with the help of rogue Russians,  shot down a Malaysian Civilian Airliner that was legally crossing their territory, killing hundreds of women and kids,    and suddenly,  the mini-civil-war is a MAJOR INTERNATIONAL EVENT THAT EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY FEELS OBLIGATED TO TAKE A SIDE ON...

 

Which brings us to the Kerch Strait.     When Ukraine and Crimea separated,  Russia and Ukraine came to an agreement as to a "specific channel route" for Ukrainian shipping to use.

 

Well, not quite.  While the Ukrainian people are Slavs  (as are the White Russians), they are different countries, just as Canada is different from the USA.  Historically, the Ukrainian people were simply conquered peoples, with a larger and much more aggressive Russian Army, equipped with European cannons acquired from France, which conquered and subjugated it. The big population shifts started with Stalin, who removed millions of Ukrainians to the death-camp Gulags as the farmer peasants resisted collectivization.  Russian peasants were moved in for the purpose of crop harvest. during WWII, Ukrainians were conscripted to fight for Russia given that the German troops were casually looting and burning the countryside, and thought it was good sport to scoop up the (very pretty) Ukrainian girls into their halftracks and take turns raping them.  Rape was commonplace through Ukraine  (not exactly going to endear you to the local civilians, now is it?).  I would mention as an aside that some of the most stunningly gorgeous women you will ever see are Ukrainian, especially from the Lvov area.  Their DNA is Polish in origin. Those women especially, both blonde and blue-eyed, were systematically raped by troops advancing to the oilfields of the Caucasus.

In the aftermath, the Soviet Union determined to dissolve, I think in 1991 or thereabouts.  As part of the dissolution agreements, Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons on its soil in return for ironclad border guarantees from Russia and other Soviet states. That Border included Crimea, which is attached to the Ukrainian land mass, and separated from Russian land by the Kerch Strait. While a deal was agreed to allow Russia to rent the naval base at Sevastopol  (there is also a civilian Ukrainian port there), that has a bit of the flavor of the USA renting its naval base at Subic Bay in the Philippines, from which the US Navy was expelled in 1992. Similarly, Russia has a naval base in Syria, yet hardly has territorial claims to advance.   There is "nothing critical" about Sevastopol as far as the Russian Navy is concerned, as it can defend its territory from the East part of the Sea of Azov, if it chose to.  It sat on that base in Crimea simply because it was already there, so no need to build new infrastructure.  The Sevastopol base was supported by rail via Ukraine, which granted train supply passage (for a fee, naturally). 

The USSR never "owned" Crimea, rather the USSR consisted of member States, in a Union, and the federation included Ukraine, and the military bases inside Ukraine became as a practical matter bases of the combined USSR.  When the USSR dissolved, Russia's authority over that land vanished, so it entered into the rental agreement (which provided ready cash and trade credits to Ukraine, always handy). 

Ukraine never broke off its relationship with Russia.  The two are each other's largest trading partners (until today). Ukraine sold wheat, and jet engines, and services including gas transport and rail to Russia, and in return purchased gas and oil and Russian manufactured goods including automobiles and trucks. The Russian KGB covertly interfered with Ukraine elections (sound familiar?) and installed a puppet, who stole staggeringly vast sums from the treasury.  Enraged, the population staged mass demonstrations, known as the "Maidan," and kicked that fellow and his club of thieves out, installing a new President who was obviously more inclined to do business with Europe.  In turn, the KGB spooks organized by Putin decided to break their Treaty Bond as to territorial borders and invaded Crimea and the Donbas.  That invasion drew not a peep from neither NATO nor Europe nor especially Obama. Putin's prompt response was to invade and occupy the Donbas. 

What Putin wants is to collapse the independent Ukraine Parliament and re-install a puppet president, and take over the economy.  Putin also wants to do that with the three Baltic States,  Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia.  Putin also wants to retake some territory lost to Finland. If he could get away with it, he would take over Poland, but the odds on that are longer. And that is why the Canadians now have a brigade of some 2,000 soldiers in the Baltic, specifically as a trip-wire, along with other small contingents of NATO troops.  It is all to counter Putin's territorial aggressions and ambitions. 

One final note:  Ukraine and Russia never made an agreement on passage through the Kerch.  They simply decided to agree to disagree and continue the historical free passage rights.  Russia again broke that deal by blockading the channel underneath the bridge, by tying up a long freighter from pillar to pillar, and putting their gunboats on it.  The reason Putin does this is to starve out Mariupol, which city and harbor sits a tantalizing 6 miles from the fighting contact line between Ukraine and Russian mercenary troops.  Putin wants to take Mariupol, but cannot without using Russian Regular Army troops, as that six miles is heavily defended. By blocking the Kerch, Putin prevents the US Navy from using landing ships to bring in tanks, and would force them to go either via Odessa to the West, or by rail from Germany through Poland and then another thousand miles to the Front, which would give Putin time to invade and seize Kharkov and possibly Kiev itself, thus pre-empting NATO. 

Nobody today inside Ukraine speaks Russian.  Even the ethnic Russians proclaim themselves Ukrainian.  Putin's plans have backfired as respects the civilians.  Trust this explains. 

P.S. the Malaysian Airliner shoot-down was over the Donesk area of the Donbas, not Crimea. Figure 600 miles to the Northeast.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Jan van Eck

[Illurion + 894]

7 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Actually, should have taken the side of Holland.

Good point.

[Illurion + 894]

7 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

P.S. the Malaysian Airliner shoot-down was over the Donesk area of the Donbas, not Crimea. Figure 600 miles to the Northeast.

True,  but i never said where the plane was shot down,  i just said it was shot down by the Crimean rebels.

That is the point.

 

You wrote a good synopsis,  far more specific than my general one.

 

However,  you haven't said what you want us to do.

 

You mention that Putin  "is blocking the Kerch to prevent the USA from landing ships to bring in tanks."

Do you really think the USA would send ships and tanks,  and presumably the troops that go with them,  to Ukraine,  just a hop and a skip from Russia ?

Do you really think the Russian ally Turkey would let us send those ships through ?

No,  we wouldn't,  and Turkey wouldn't.

And Russia would not stand by and let us.

So blocking the Kerch is for some OTHER reason.

 

The USA,  and the EU,  have no standing in this issue.

 

We need to stay back and let Russia and Ukraine settle their dispute between themselves.

Despite what you say,   Ukraine and Russia are tied together,  and have been so for a long time.

This is a feud between two brothers.

Apparently Russia would rather settle it peacefully,  or they would have massively invaded and taken Ukraine back 2 years ago.

 

As for Russia wanting the Baltic states back,  we will see,  time will tell.

 

We should do nothing for now.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Illurion

[shadowkin + 584]

The Russians know France, Germany and the EU are all bark and no bite. That's the price you pay for not funding your militaries and relying on the US for your defense.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

9 hours ago, shadowkin said:

The Russians know France, Germany and the EU are all bark and no bite. That's the price you pay for not funding your militaries and relying on the US for your defense.

That's the price you pay for always, always, showing righteous indignation.  And always barking, period!  You are absolutely right, though: Vlad smirks every time he sees or hears these guys throwing their empty threats around, and then he asks his personal assistant for the current balance of payments received for the gas he is pumping into their countries.  Then he double checks that the shut off valves are still functioning properly from the app on his smart phone.  After that it's a nice massage and then off to the gulag for some recreational activities and on to the rest of his day.

Okay, a bit of a facetious take on reality, but you get the point.