Brazil, BRICS, Oil, Military, World Trade Organization, and Trump

15 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My comment was about UN. Not NATO.

my apologies.  thought we were discussing NATO

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(edited)

15 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

what percentage of GDP?

I will do your research for you

Denmark : 0,7 percent. 

USA : 0,15 percent

Third world aid is a soft security cost. 

Actual NATO cost - see my comment to @mthebold post.

The USA should have to pay NOTHING for having bases in Europe.

We are there for you.

You should be paying us 100% of what it costs for us to be there,  and for 100% of the cost of NATO.

Instead,  each nation pays around 2%,  and whine about increasing the payment to 3%.

You have to understand that the American People are tired of paying for NATO and European bases.

Trump ran a plank in his campaign that NATO would pay up,  or NATO would be shut down.

Once elected,  Trump has relented,  and has stated that he will ATTEMPT TO GET THE NATO NATIONS TO PAY THEIR OWN WAY FULLY.

But if you do not,  and frankly,  it is inevitable that you will not,  THEN EUROPE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE USA WILL WITHDRAW FROM NATO IN THE NOT-TOO-DISTANT FUTURE.

We have our own problems,  and we no longer have the time,  or money,  or patience to take care of you.

If Europe ends up speaking Russian,  then fine.

Though frankly,  at the current rate,  Arabic is what i see as the future language of Europe.

Edited by Illurion
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America has been very altruistic governmentally but even more so through supporting missionaries and private donations of many kinds. Leftists tend to denigrate private charity because they prefer governmental bodies to mandate which areas are specifically helped. I prefer supporting others through Christian organizations. If you consider all the sources of private donations plus American government we are near the top of the donor nations by percentage per person. 

I spent 26 months defending West Germany from communist invasion. Western European nations would be part of a strong Soviet Union without America. Younger generations in Europe have been brainwashed by their educational system just as ours have. Just as individuals like to forget their debt to others, nations do also. 

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9 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

. I spent 26 months defending West Germany from communist invasion. 

Thank you for your service.

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8 hours ago, Illurion said:

The USA should have to pay NOTHING for having bases in Europe.

We are there for you.

America pays to have a buffer zone any war would be in Europe first if there was no American bases Europe would fall quickly and America would have take a lot more causalities. Early warning systems are in Europe as are anti missile bases and forward air bases all very handy defensive and offensive weapons take them away and America is a lot more vulnerable.

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12 hours ago, Illurion said:

Thank you for your service.

Indeed, thank you RonWagn.

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4 hours ago, jaycee said:

America pays to have a buffer zone any war would be in Europe first if there was no American bases Europe would fall quickly and America would have take a lot more causalities. Early warning systems are in Europe as are anti missile bases and forward air bases all very handy defensive and offensive weapons take them away and America is a lot more vulnerable.

Europe long ago stopped being a buffer for us.

Our casualties will neither rise or fall based on what happens in Europe.

We shut down all of our "coastal" B52 bomber bases (McCoy USAFB Orlando, etc,) and moved them inland to the Dakota's etc, back in 1970's because a missile could nuke them in 3 minutes offshore by submarine on the coast.

The Russians can go straight to us at any time,  skipping everything we have in Europe.

No,  what we have in Europe is for Europe,  and they should pay for it,  or we should bring it home.

As for our anti-missile tech,  the new missiles coming online from Russia and China (and hopefully us) are too fast for them.

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1 hour ago, Illurion said:

Europe long ago stopped being a buffer for us.

Our casualties will neither rise or fall based on what happens in Europe.

We shut down all of our "coastal" B52 bomber bases (McCoy USAFB Orlando, etc,) and moved them inland to the Dakota's etc, back in 1970's because a missile could nuke them in 3 minutes offshore by submarine on the coast.

The Russians can go straight to us at any time,  skipping everything we have in Europe.

No,  what we have in Europe is for Europe,  and they should pay for it,  or we should bring it home.

As for our anti-missile tech,  the new missiles coming online from Russia and China (and hopefully us) are too fast for them.

So America v the rest of the world and America would win, as if the US left Europe I will give you three guess who they would side with then. America needs Europe. 

The Russians can hit you straight away with subs, how many they got how many are pointing at Europe where would they point after the US leaves Europe? What about the warheads from Russia pointing at Europe would they be moved to long range weapons? Whatever way you cut it America needs an allied buffer. Add in the political loss too of course of America losing influence in Europe all that soft power gone to influence world events that effect American trade. America cannot survive in isolation if you believe that then good luck .

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20 minutes ago, jaycee said:

So America v the rest of the world and America would win, as if the US left Europe I will give you three guess who they would side with then. America needs Europe. 

The Russians can hit you straight away with subs, how many they got how many are pointing at Europe where would they point after the US leaves Europe? What about the warheads from Russia pointing at Europe would they be moved to long range weapons? Whatever way you cut it America needs an allied buffer. Add in the political loss too of course of America losing influence in Europe all that soft power gone to influence world events that effect American trade. America cannot survive in isolation if you believe that then good luck .

There is no guaranty that the USA will win any war. 

There never has been.

There never will be.

America does NOT need Europe except as a trading partner.

And as for the Russians taking Europe,  they can do that NOW,  even with us there.

And frankly,   the Russians are not stupid,   they DO NOT WANT EUROPE.

The Russians USE EUROPE to drain OUR RESOURCES...

The bottom line is that EUROPE NEEDS TO GROW UP AND TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES...

The USA needs to stop carrying Europe's baggage.

They need to stand on their own.

America will not be isolated just because we stopped paying European debts.

No offense,  but it is people who believe like you that "coddles" Europe and keeps them from standing up on their own two feet.

Even at 3%,   no European country comes anywhere near paying for their own military cost,  much less paying toward what we have to pay for them.

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2 hours ago, Illurion said:

There is no guaranty that the USA will win any war. 

There never has been.

There never will be.

America does NOT need Europe except as a trading partner.

And as for the Russians taking Europe,  they can do that NOW,  even with us there.

And frankly,   the Russians are not stupid,   they DO NOT WANT EUROPE.

The Russians USE EUROPE to drain OUR RESOURCES...

The bottom line is that EUROPE NEEDS TO GROW UP AND TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES...

The USA needs to stop carrying Europe's baggage.

They need to stand on their own.

America will not be isolated just because we stopped paying European debts.

No offense,  but it is people who believe like you that "coddles" Europe and keeps them from standing up on their own two feet.

Even at 3%,   no European country comes anywhere near paying for their own military cost,  much less paying toward what we have to pay for them.

lol your have odd ideas

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22 minutes ago, jaycee said:

lol your have odd ideas

look in the mirror.

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:53 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Yellow Vest rally schedules for Canada tomorrow, January 5th.

Most beginning at 11:00 am.

NEW BRUNSWICK

SAINT JOHN - Market Square

FREDERICTON- City Hall

MONCTON- City Hall

P.E.I.

CHARLOTTETOWN- Jean Canfield Building

NEWFOUNDLAND

ST. JOHN'S- Confederation Building

ONTARIO

TORONTO - Nathan Phillips Square

LONDON - City Hall

HAMILTON - City Hall

BRANTFORD - City Hall

WINDSOR- City Hall

SARNIA- City Hall

MARKHAM- City Hall

KITCHENER- City Hall

VAUGHAN - City Hall

DRYDEN- City Hall

SUDBURY- City Hall

KENORA- City Hall‎

SAULT STE. MARIE- City Hall

THUNDER BAY- City Hall

BARRIE- City Hall

WELLAND- City Hall

TIMMINS- City Hall

QUEBEC‎

MONTREAL - Montreal City Hall

BRITISH COLUMBIA

‎FORT ST.JOHN UTC-07

DAWSON CREEK

Northern Alberta Railway Park (NAR Park)

VANCOUVER - City Hall

VERNON - Courthouse‎

WILLIAMS LAKE- City Hall

‎VICTORIA - Parliament Building

CHILLIWACK- Exit 119 Vedder Road West

KELOWNA -  B.K. parking lot (HWY 97/Cooper)

KAMLOOPS- City Hall

FORT ST. JOHN- Merritt Bridge

(beside A&W)

PRINCE GEORGE- TOWN Hall

LANGLEY -  232nd Overpass

ABBOTSFORD - City Hall

NOVA SCOTIA

HALIFAX -City Hall

SASKATCHEWAN‎

SASKATOON - City Hall 

KINDERSLEY- City Hall

‎REGINA - Legislature Building

‎ESTEVAN- City Hall

MOOSSEJAW- City Hall

YORKTON - City Hall

SWIFT CURRENT- City Hall‎

ALBERTA

LETHBRIDGE - City Hall

WHITECOURT

(Near Tim's/Police Station)

BONNYVILLE- Courthouse‎

‎SUNDRE - Sundre Town Hall

EDMONTON - Alberta Legislative Building

LLOYD MINSTER – City Hall

GRANDE PRAIRIE - Muskoseepi Park

RED DEER - City Hall

CALGARY - City Hall

MEDICINE HAT - 2810 13th Ave. S.E. @12:00

FORT MCMURRAY - City Hall

MANITOBA

WINNIPEG - Manitoba Legislative Building

BRANDON- City Hall

THOMPSON- City Hall

PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE- City Hall

DAUPHIN- City Hall

CHURCHILL- Town Hall

https://yellowvestscanada.net/events.html

Nothing happened

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:58 AM, ronwagn said:

Very impressive. I hope lots of patriots show up!

Yellow vest has nothing to do with patriotism; it's just pro oil industry (first two), hate of foreigners aka. non-whites (second two), and their right to keep speaking hate.

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(edited)

9 hours ago, mthebold said:

Very well then.  Let's have the US withdraw from NATO, stop policing the sea lanes, and play hardball with former allies.  We'll see how long Europe lasts. 

And when y'all come crawling back, we should demand protection money from you. 

You know that I believe if given a choice between sinking and swimming that Europe will swim. 

As to the rest - all I was saying was that we need balance. I don't need to agree with you to see the complete picture and try to have a balanced view. What I was trying to say is that Americas military was not built up for alturistic reasons. Latest example of the benefit of American military might in trade politic was the LNG supply deal with Poland that @Jan van Eck reported about. 

Europe and the rest of the West are not totally in-capable of doing anything. 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen
forgot not
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On 1/6/2019 at 2:01 AM, ronwagn said:

America has been very altruistic governmentally but even more so through supporting missionaries and private donations of many kinds. Leftists tend to denigrate private charity because they prefer governmental bodies to mandate which areas are specifically helped. I prefer supporting others through Christian organizations. If you consider all the sources of private donations plus American government we are near the top of the donor nations by percentage per person. 

 

Do you have any statistics from a credible source? 

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On 1/5/2019 at 8:01 PM, ronwagn said:

America has been very altruistic governmentally but even more so through supporting missionaries and private donations of many kinds. Leftists tend to denigrate private charity because they prefer governmental bodies to mandate which areas are specifically helped. I prefer supporting others through Christian organizations. If you consider all the sources of private donations plus American government we are near the top of the donor nations by percentage per person. 

I spent 26 months defending West Germany from communist invasion. Western European nations would be part of a strong Soviet Union without America. Younger generations in Europe have been brainwashed by their educational system just as ours have. Just as individuals like to forget their debt to others, nations do also. 

 

5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Do you have any statistics from a credible source? 

Congratulations Ronwagn,  you beat Rasmus.

I say this because i have come to the conclusion that he only asks for "sources" when he had no "creditable" response to what was said about something.

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:59 PM, Illurion said:

The US doesn't count as far as per-capita is concerned.

NATO needs to pay for itself.   100%.

You need to understand that the US will eventually withdraw from NATO.

 

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9 hours ago, Illurion said:

 

Congratulations Ronwagn,  you beat Rasmus.

I say this because i have come to the conclusion that he only asks for "sources" when he had no "creditable" response to what was said about something.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/america-new-zealand-and-canada-top-list-of-world-s-most-generous-nations-a6849221.html

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On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 8:01 PM, ronwagn said:

America has been very altruistic governmentally but even more so through supporting missionaries and private donations of many kinds. Leftists tend to denigrate private charity because they prefer governmental bodies to mandate which areas are specifically helped. I prefer supporting others through Christian organizations. If you consider all the sources of private donations plus American government we are near the top of the donor nations by percentage per person. 

I spent 26 months defending West Germany from communist invasion. Western European nations would be part of a strong Soviet Union without America. Younger generations in Europe have been brainwashed by their educational system just as ours have. Just as individuals like to forget their debt to others, nations do also. 

Finland is the only country that has  paid their debt to USA from World War 11. I applaud the comments from Ronwagn .

 

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On 1/8/2019 at 12:47 PM, Goose Creek Farm,LLC said:

Finland is the only country that has  paid their debt to USA from World War 11. I applaud the comments from Ronwagn .

That may have been true 15 years ago, but the UK paid its debts in 2006.  UK settles WWII debts to allies.

FWIW, after 2,000 years of constant internal warfare, the only reason that Europe stopped fighting is because of the US and USSR occupation.  I'm hopeful that we've gotten to the point where Europe no longer needs to battle with itself, but with the recent rise of nationalism I'm not 100% confident.

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Problem is not just the amount Europe spends on defense, its how its spent. European nations look at every major spending program as a protectionist jobs program. I'll admit, the U.S. isn't a paragon of procurement virtue either.

To become a partner capable of standing with (rather than cowering behind) the US, Europe needs to build a military with true combat power. That means 90+% of combat units rapidly deployable and ready to fight. It means tough training standards that haven't been watered down by PC virtue signalling.

If Japan were attacked today, does anyone believe Europe could gather 200-300k combat forces to deploy to the Pacific in 6-8 weeks to defend our friend and ally Japan?

Doing the above would likely require doubling the active duty headcount of NATO's European members and a similar increase in Navy/AF assets. Would require instituting a draft and maybe make receiving social benefits contingent on serving in and being honorably discharged from the military. Don't think Europe discovers the will to fight until they've seen the consequences of their weakness.

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One solution I've expected to hear discussed is for the US to announce as policy that it will only defend US flagged shipping. Make it clear to pirates and rogue states they can have their way with any ship not under our protection. Then let the Dutch or Liberian navy deal with any problems, pay the USN for protection or start shipping on US vessels.

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2 hours ago, C.B. Saunders said:

Problem is not just the amount Europe spends on defense, its how its spent. European nations look at every major spending program as a protectionist jobs program. I'll admit, the U.S. isn't a paragon of procurement virtue either.

To become a partner capable of standing with (rather than cowering behind) the US, Europe needs to build a military with true combat power. That means 90+% of combat units rapidly deployable and ready to fight. It means tough training standards that haven't been watered down by PC virtue signalling.

If Japan were attacked today, does anyone believe Europe could gather 200-300k combat forces to deploy to the Pacific in 6-8 weeks to defend our friend and ally Japan?

Doing the above would likely require doubling the active duty headcount of NATO's European members and a similar increase in Navy/AF assets. Would require instituting a draft and maybe make receiving social benefits contingent on serving in and being honorably discharged from the military. Don't think Europe discovers the will to fight until they've seen the consequences of their weakness.

Fair point.

Although my understanding is that the battlefield today is cyberspace more so than an actual battlefield.

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(edited)

2 hours ago, C.B. Saunders said:

One solution I've expected to hear discussed is for the US to announce as policy that it will only defend US flagged shipping. Make it clear to pirates and rogue states they can have their way with any ship not under our protection. Then let the Dutch or Liberian navy deal with any problems, pay the USN for protection or start shipping on US vessels.

I don't have the numbers, but I was under the impression that the International community had borne the cost of the various naval missions off Somalia very equally. One of the reasons being that there aren't many American flagged vessels passing by. 

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen

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Expect you're right about the Somali operation and take your point. But even here, USN provides an integrating leadership role with comm, intelligence, the flagship (USS San Antonio landing dock ship) and support from Joint Base Djibouti (USN/USMC).

And Somalia is a very small part of the world. The real cost of insuring freedom of the seas is far higher than the Somali deployment costs (operating 5-10 international frigates/destroyers to defend against a handful of pirate bases running <30ft launches with small arms).

Absent the assurance of the USN defending freedom of navigation, many large players would begin extracting costs from international shipping. First maybe taxes, fines and regulation imposed by rogue naval vessels on commercial ships in international waters. Then more bold moves like navies from smaller sovereigns seizing vessels (Belarus, NK, Iran) owned/controlled by developed trading nations without a blue water navy (Japan, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Taiwan, Singapore). Final stage would likely be paying mafia-type "protection" money to big nations like Russia, China and operating within their rules (e.g. no trade with Taiwan, etc.).

European and Asian exporters have a history of paying ransom as a cost of doing business. Without the backstop of expensive, global US naval power, these costs would spin out of control. Maritime insurance market would collapse.

Ultimately, international law is "make believe" law without a muscular military willing to enforce it across the globe. Any country that relies on international law owes the US a debt.

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