China Car Sales Plummet: Can Musk Unshovel His Groundbreaking?

(edited)

40 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I think we are both saying the same thing in a different way. Without using capitalism China would not be as wealthy as it is now. Our middle class is shrinking while China's seems to be increasing. Is this incorrect? The freedoms in China seem to be declining rapidly as social controls rapidly tighten. Is that correct? 

Somewhat,  yes, we are on the same path. Thank you for all the commentary, and to those who disagree. 

The main issue to consider is this, People pursue FREEDOM in all its forms. America was founded under the very principles of Liberty, Freedom, the rule of law, and the other unalienable rights afforded by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. 

In China, there is NO expectation of individual rights and freedoms. Habeas Corpus and other western views of legal protection do not exist. 

The significance of the Magna Carta and Due Process rights developed to assure the Free World of individual protections is being eroded. 

"Hot One" continues to ask for examples of atrocities, without realizing the potential for harming anyone today. 

However, America's decline is substantial. Cries for "Social Justice" and the elimination of legal protections for people seen as a threat to the socialist left preclude Due Process rights to all not deemed worthy of "protected class status." 

The fear amongst many is not coming solely from communist China, it comes from the betrayal of America's left. The left would surely throw me under the bus, regardless of my intent and innocence, if it meant achieving their socialist agenda. They would collapse their own economy to destroy President Trump. 

They simply refuse to recognize that they will be unable to awake from a successful suicide. They will be unable to read their own names in the obituary columns they so desperately seek to fill. 

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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2 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Somewhat,  yes, we are on the same path. Thank you for all the commentary, and to those who disagree. 

The main issue to consider is this, People pursue FREEDOM in all its forms. America was founded under the very principles of Liberty, Freedom, the rule of law, and the other unalienated rights afforded by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. 

In China, there is NO expectation of individual rights and freedoms. Habeas Corpus and other western views of legal protection do not exist. 

The significance of the Magna Carta and Due Process rights developed to assure the Free World of individual protections is being eroded. 

"Hot One" continues to ask for examples of atrocities, without realizing the potential for harming anyone today. 

However, America's decline is substantial. Cries for "Social Justice" and the elimination of legal protections for people seen as a threat to the socialist left preclude Due Process rights to all not deemed worthy of "protected class status." 

The fear amongst many is not coming solely from communist China, it comes from the betrayal of America's left. The left would surely throw me under the bus, regardless of my intent and innocence, if it meant achieving their socialist agenda. They would collapse their own economy to destroy President Trump. 

They simply refuse to recognize that they will be unable to awake from a successful suicide. They will be unable to read their own names in the obituary columns they so desperately seek to fill. 

I am not asking for 'examples of atrocities', I am curious about your firsthand eyewitness experience which you alluded to in your post. Subsequently, you mention understanding the inner workings of the Chinese communism.  I infer that you must have extensive dealings with the Chinese and lived in China for some time.  I respect that you are warning us about their diabolical system based on your understanding and disillusionment. 

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2 minutes ago, Hotone said:

I am not asking for 'examples of atrocities', I am curious about your firsthand eyewitness experience which you alluded to in your post. Subsequently, you mention understanding the inner workings of the Chinese communism.  I infer that you must have extensive dealings with the Chinese and lived in China for some time.  I respect that you are warning us about their diabolical system based on your understanding and disillusionment. 

What you asking for may harm people still living in China.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-renditions-kidnapping/

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5 minutes ago, Hotone said:

I am not asking for 'examples of atrocities', I am curious about your firsthand eyewitness experience which you alluded to in your post. Subsequently, you mention understanding the inner workings of the Chinese communism.  I infer that you must have extensive dealings with the Chinese and lived in China for some time.  I respect that you are warning us about their diabolical system based on your understanding and disillusionment. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ban.html

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22 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Agree with you on many issues you cite. However, having some internal knowledge of the system, it appears from the outside as capitalistic but truly is run by those in Beijing. The communist party does not like "competition," as any totalitarian regime doesn't. You will see where people in high-visibility positions are "disappeared" or are required to make public statements like that of Jack Ma, reaffirming their allegiance to the communist party. Guanxi, the system of social networks and influential relationships which facilitate business and other dealings, is about 95% of the influence over the economy, not capitalism. If Jack Ma falls out of favor with the "party," he is not allowed to move his capital out of the country, because in communist societies, the capital is owned by the state. Ma would be "Disappeared" like so many others. Xi himself runs the risk of losing control. his position is dependent on his ability to keep those around him flush with other people's cash and property. As the Fed reverse QE program and higher interest rates pull liquidity out of the global economy, suckling off the USD will end. 

Trump's trade war is reminding people that China is a socialist and communist nation. America's own corruption and overspending are the ONLY reasons socialism and communism have flourished under Xi and his recent predecessors. Without the willful gullibility of the American people, China would still be the largest LDC in human history.

All this means that as soon as America's left kills the golden goose, the global game is over. 

Without the USD, humanity is in serious trouble. I am the last to want this scenario, and maybe the most alarmist; however, I see the Left going forward with ever greater effort to kill themselves, and humanity along with it.   

You both have good points. The 'communist' cadre in China are often referred to as Red capitalists and the children who have been basically given business, Red princes. It's seems like a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism with Chinese characteristics you might say. But you're right it can and has been taken away at any time if they should fall out of favor. An interesting question is how many of these cadre still believe in the CCP after they've had a taste of the good life. Many of these Red capitalists have moved a lot of money overseas, especially to the West, before the CCP started cracking down on that recently. They seem to be hedging their bets against the downfall of the CCP.

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2 minutes ago, shadowkin said:

You both have good points. The 'communist' cadre in China are often referred to as Red capitalists and the children who have been basically given business, Red princes. It's seems like a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism with Chinese characteristics you might say. But you're right it can and has been taken away at any time if they should fall out of favor. An interesting question is how many of these cadre still believe in the CCP after they've had a taste of the good life. Many of these Red capitalists have moved a lot of money overseas, especially to the West, before the CCP started cracking down on that recently. They seem to be hedging their bets against the downfall of the CCP.

 

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16 minutes ago, shadowkin said:

You both have good points. The 'communist' cadre in China are often referred to as Red capitalists and the children who have been basically given business, Red princes. It's seems like a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. Capitalism with Chinese characteristics you might say. But you're right it can and has been taken away at any time if they should fall out of favor. An interesting question is how many of these cadre still believe in the CCP after they've had a taste of the good life. Many of these Red capitalists have moved a lot of money overseas, especially to the West, before the CCP started cracking down on that recently. They seem to be hedging their bets against the downfall of the CCP.

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Just like "Democratic Socialism" in America, "Capitalism with Chinese characteristics" is also a fraud. 

Socialism is seductive, akin to an addiction; it feeds on the primal desire to fulfill human wants and needs at someone else's expense. 

If allowed to succeed, America's Democratic Socialists will rise to power, Unfortunately, the next iteration then becomes the increasing need for control; which means that the one-party rule of Communism is the ultimate goal of America's "elite." These misguided people may be seen in the future hanging from light poles, as is the case with most tyrants throughout history. 

I'm not advocating violence, just observing the slow march toward it.  

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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5 minutes ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Just like "Democratic Socialism" in America, "Capitalism with Chinese characteristics" is also a fraud. 

Socialism is seductive, akin to an addiction; it feeds on the primal desire to fulfill human wants and needs at someone else's expense. 

If allowed to succeed, America's Democratic Socialists will rise to power, Unfortunately, the next iteration then becomes the increasing need for control; which means that the one-party rule of Communism is the ultimate goal of America's "elite." These misguided people may be seen in the future hanging from light poles, as is the case with most tyrants throughout history. 

I'm not advocating violence, just observing the slow march toward it.  

There is definitely convergence of thought and behavior of the 'elite' of the two systems. Many politicians and especially media in the US have been showering praise on China in recent years especially when it comes to their pet projects like climate change. They drool that the CCP can just order things to be done. They're naive and don't understand China will never respect any international agreement it has signed, instead it will do what's in its interests and lie that it's obeying the treaty.

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When the U.S. puts out a travel warning, take it seriously.  So going to China would not be a good idea.  China would not exist without the U.S.  I try not to buy anything made in China, but it's almost impossible when you're buying on line.  Also guns drawn on you in the U.S. (comment on thread), that would happen if you were in an area buying drugs perhaps, or in gang territory but not in a regular town or city.   I'd like to know where this was actually. 

But, back to Tesla in China.  Another company whose technology will be taken without permission.  There are 300,000 Chinese students at top universities in our country.  Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that they would bring highly developed technology and ideas back to China.  I believe that when you take away the right to speak and debate, your country will never develop so China can send its smartest people to our universities, but without free thought and speech they will never succeed in what that country strives to accomplish.

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2 hours ago, shadowkin said:

There is definitely convergence of thought and behavior of the 'elite' of the two systems. Many politicians and especially media in the US have been showering praise on China in recent years especially when it comes to their pet projects like climate change. They drool that the CCP can just order things to be done. They're naive and don't understand China will never respect any international agreement it has signed, instead it will do what's in its interests and lie that it's obeying the treaty.

Here is one element of the plan. It was greatly successful in California. Several Republican representatives were declared winners and a few days later the call was reversed due to election engineering. The Sheriff in my County was elected the same way. He one by one point reversing the initial win. 

Now they want to take crooked electioneering nationwide:

 

If this happens we may have a civil war. We need to see through it and call it what it is - fake election dictatorship similar to what Putin has. 

 

H.R. 1: Democrats Act to Strip State Powers Over Elections

 

Edited by ronwagn
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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 3:33 PM, Jan van Eck said:

Give it up, Microbio, you are fencing with the handler of an Al bot.  

This particular bot has lived on five continents, speaks a dozen languages, is currently sitting in a very sleepy town in the south of France  (being the only Englishman, with no explanation of what he is doing there), knows everything about everything, and now tells us that he goes to America and has "guns pulled on him."  I have lived in America for decades and nobody has ever "pulled a gun" on me.  I am a (very) Teutonic white guy; I have walked around in what are described as the worst black neighborhoods of New York and Boston  (OK, not Baltimore, where nobody walks around), and nobody dreams of touching me.  I go into all-black restaurants for a nice lunch where I am the only white man to set foot inside in the last three decades, and am warmly greeted.  Nobody "pulls guns."  Those types of comments are just ridiculous. Bots make those kinds of comments, to stir up hassle and animosity on the Boards.  They describe events that do not occur.  Those are fantasies of bot handlers. 

Actually apart from being only being a meat bag I'm quite hopeless with languages, getting on for ten years altogether in France (even worked for the government for a bit) and my French is terrible. I wish I knew everything about everything. Yup I worked just outside DC for over a year and I did have a gun pulled on me and my replacement (also from the UK, thought he was going to mess his pants). But that's by no means the only place I've had guns pointed at me, used to work on the Israeli/Jordan border, every day driving down there a 50 cal barrel would follow you down the road, fun days.

I maybe have grownup a simple country boy but I've had an interesting life, a bit slower now with a wife and son. But no longer in that village in the south of France. Although I was by far not the only English man or immigrant in that village. Think I may have mentioned here my wife is French.

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On 1/12/2019 at 10:02 AM, Hotone said:

I have been traveling a bit and when I do, I totally depend on Google, Maps, YouTube, Translate, WhatsApp, Airbnb and Uber.  I have been thinking about visiting China, but you are right, it's a shame that I can't use any of these tools (except Airbnb).  I can't read Chinese, so I can't use the China equivalent tools and that holds me back from making a trip. Still, I wouldn't call that an atrocity.  

On the other hand, I do believe what I see on youtube, and I follow the travel guides and Vlogs for sightseeing tips and dining.  I was just wondering what atrocities you have actually seen firsthand; that's all. 

All my China Stories https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wb2YoQGpSWTz32ljsiA_ey6FLVqc2Dpe7Fnpiqn9lBs/edit

 https://news.nbcm.ca/china-declared-islam-a-contagious-disease-and-quarantined-1-million-muslims

CHINA DECLARED ISLAM A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE – AND QUARANTINED 1 MILLION MUSLIMS

79BNxuSX-AojGXLEZQT0pUhDAeJqApgEDMDWekLKLg4tfMrFxkNYX8a64c7a7ZsE6H7UFr5RYDDh1qpCIfOXsTNX2HZGNuluZ35gr8YB5W0AumOVUVescH1laqpFxQEkPlYkQNhr

Edited by ronwagn
added reference

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4 hours ago, JoMack said:

When the U.S. puts out a travel warning, take it seriously.  So going to China would not be a good idea.  China would not exist without the U.S.  I try not to buy anything made in China, but it's almost impossible when you're buying on line.  Also guns drawn on you in the U.S. (comment on thread), that would happen if you were in an area buying drugs perhaps, or in gang territory but not in a regular town or city.   I'd like to know where this was actually. 

But, back to Tesla in China.  Another company whose technology will be taken without permission.  There are 300,000 Chinese students at top universities in our country.  Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that they would bring highly developed technology and ideas back to China.  I believe that when you take away the right to speak and debate, your country will never develop so China can send its smartest people to our universities, but without free thought and speech they will never succeed in what that country strives to accomplish.

Ahhh so right and therein lies the problem.  Our hubris holds the foolish belief that we will seed thoughts of freedom, liberty and the free market into these students we keep bringing here by the hundreds of thousands to educate in the hard sciences and everything else and will thus change the Chinese Experience to be more like the American Experience.  Hog wash, naivety.  The Chinese are a very old, very patient and very calculated people.  They will smile and take.  As an added bonus, because we are addicted to their money, through so-called Confucius Instututes, they are giving, giving the perception they want Americans to hold of them, a view well outside of reality.  But then, what is it they say, perception is reality.  Clearly America is taking what their giving.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/08/chinese_infiltration_in_american_schools.html

 

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2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I laud the Chinkcoms for this action. Islam is an evil, violent cult and a disease that needs to be cured.  It imposes the death penalty for apostacy. One of their historical religious figures even mentioned that if they didn't impose the death penalty, Islam would not exist in the world today. Unlike Christianity, Islam cannot reform itself and I think it needs massive effort to re-educate the Muslim community so that it can think and behave in a more rational way. 

Edited by Hotone
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7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I don't have a problem with this. Islam is a virus. It's the only thing China is doing right but it's a half-measure. You can't reform or educate these devils.

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13 hours ago, shadowkin said:

I don't have a problem with this. Islam is a virus. It's the only thing China is doing right but it's a half-measure. You can't reform or educate these devils.

China should never attack the Muslim people. I have a serious problem with the actions taken against the Islamic religion, even though I am not Muslim. Consider that there are factions of "Extremist" individuals within every society and you will conclude that the few are not representative of the masses. 

Social controls exist in every nation because of the sin of man. 

We all sin; Justice is mine saith the Lord!

In no way would I ever encourage or condone the vile extermination of an entire group of people for the actions of a few. Vigilante justice precludes Due Process and is never acceptable.

Extrajudicial actions on the part of a government (e.g. Duterte) are even more repugnant and should be cause for uniting the world against the evil nature of man. War crimes should be extended to all who violate human rights. China's inability to maintain human rights, civil rights and a just rule of law further illustrates why it cannot be accepted as the leader of world affairs. 

See this link

   http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Duterte-admits-Extrajudicial-killings-in-anti-drug-operations-45063.html

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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18 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Having traveled across northwest China and even on the Qinghai-Tibet train, I can tell you that the countries (yes, Tibet is an occupied country) and people are amazing. Recently, the Chinese communist government (officially Atheist) began cracking down on all the religions of the world, after several decades of liberalization. The Dalai Lama would love to return to his peace-loving people. Buddhists, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants,  Hindus...it does not matter, FREEDOM of religion is paramount and unalienable from humanity. 

I'm surprised that people do not see the men in uniform here and immediately think of the Nazis from WWII. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/24/china-cracks-down-on-christmas-celebrations

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/22/vatican-pope-francis-agreement-with-china-nominating-bishops

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/05/china-human-rights-record-examined-united-nations-un-review

I love the Tibetian and Chinese people! 

They are amazingly gracious, caring, and diligent. Most people in the world want the same thing, Liberty, Freedom, Justice, and the right to worship as they choose. When governments execute people for peaceful assembly and worship, it is a crime against humanity and the leadership of the country should face international condemnation, sanction, and accountability in a court. 

Westerners do not consider that the "Right of Peaceful Assembly" does not exist in China and many other nations. Normally, China's PSB (Public Security Bureau) and provincial Communist Party will prevent any event or gathering above a few hundred people. 

Foreigners that seek a Foreign Expert Certificate to work and live in China must agree not to assemble and stay clear of certain taboo (illegal) topics.  

Edited by Microbio-glutonist
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On 1/12/2019 at 12:36 PM, ronwagn said:

I think we are both saying the same thing in a different way. Without using capitalism China would not be as wealthy as it is now. Our middle class is shrinking while China's seems to be increasing. Is this incorrect? The freedoms in China seem to be declining rapidly as social controls rapidly tighten. Is that correct? 

And the middle class is what really keeps an economy going, get rid of them and the economy will fall as well. Our people in Washington seem to have forgotten that minor point, and will ultimately do us all in. Less than a month and the DNC is squawking about impeachment, constitutional changes to remove the electoral college, and increasing taxes on the wealthy to 70%? They will do us in if they are allowed any power at all, thank god we have the house under Rep control for now. 

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I think you mean we have the Senate under control for now Serwin. Pelosi's is pushing for automatic registration, last day registration, No ID etc. 

The elites can lessen the numbers in the middle class by using fewer middle managers and bringing in more foreigners who will take less pay and vote Democrat. We need to fight that with all our might. 

Edited by ronwagn
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5 hours ago, Microbio-glutonist said:

Having traveled across northwest China and even on the Qinghai-Tibet train, I can tell you that the countries (yes, Tibet is an occupied country) and people are amazing. Recently, the Chinese communist government (officially Atheist) began cracking down on all the religions of the world, after several decades of liberalization. The Dalai Lama would love to return to his peace-loving people. Buddhists, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants,  Hindus...it does not matter, FREEDOM of religion is paramount and unalienable from humanity. 

I'm surprised that people do not see the men in uniform here and immediately think of the Nazis from WWII. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/24/china-cracks-down-on-christmas-celebrations

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/22/vatican-pope-francis-agreement-with-china-nominating-bishops

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/05/china-human-rights-record-examined-united-nations-un-review

I love the Tibetian and Chinese people! 

They are amazingly gracious, caring, and diligent. Most people in the world want the same thing, Liberty, Freedom, Justice, and the right to worship as they choose. When governments execute people for peaceful assembly and worship, it is a crime against humanity and the leadership of the country should face international condemnation, sanction, and accountability in a court. 

Westerners do not consider that the "Right of Peaceful Assembly" does not exist in China and many other nations. Normally, China's PSB (Public Security Bureau) and provincial Communist Party will prevent any event or gathering above a few hundred people. 

Foreigners that seek a Foreign Expert Certificate to work and live in China must agree not to assemble and stay clear of certain taboo (illegal) topics.  

I agree with your statements. I say we need to minimize trade with all countries who abuse their citizens and do not allow requisite freedoms. The better they are the more trade we should allow them. China is one of the worst and should be our main target. 

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20 hours ago, TXPower said:

Ahhh so right and therein lies the problem.  Our hubris holds the foolish belief that we will seed thoughts of freedom, liberty and the free market

Foolish is any belief that American educational institutions seed thoughts of freedom, liberty, and the free market.

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On 1/12/2019 at 11:12 AM, Hotone said:

China practices 'socialist' capitalism and American capitalism is controlled by Jews? Not being anti-semitic but they do control Wall Street and in my early days trading the stock market, I have been burned by pump and dump schemes especially by a guy named Greenburg. 

That's exactly anti-semitic - any use of "they" is a massive red flag.

So many people here just play scapegoatism - its the jews, Islam, China, liberals; Everyone else's fault except their own. 

Once upon the time the USA welcomed people to come escape oppression and have opportunities.  Now when people come and prosper they are the problem - "stealing my job."  How easy they forget about Capitalistic ideals (free market, labor competition, survival of the hardest working and smartest) it was never your job...

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44 minutes ago, Rodent said:

Foolish is any belief that American educational institutions seed thoughts of freedom, liberty, and the free market.

For the most part Rodent, touché. But, it does still happen in the primary and secondary schools here in rural Texas.

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