methanol fuel cells

[SR71 + 6]

i am chemical engineer and in my view methanol fuel cells or methanol fueled engines are the most attractive alternative to gasoline.

Methanol can be produced with well known technology from coal as well as natural gas,  in fact large installations produce methanol from NG all over the world to produce vast quantities of methanol as a feed stock for the chemical industry

its corrosion  of steel and lower energy  content has prevented methanol to become prevalent as a fuel for automobiles but, depending on economics and regional supply of coal or NG.

Is anyone interested in this topic?

[specinho + 467]

CH3OH + O2 --> CO2 + H2O

H2O --- hydrolysis?? --> 2 H+ + O2-  

H+ will go to cathode- receive electron and produce H2 ??

O2- will go to anode- release electron and produce O2 ??

Not sure if this is correct but please enlighten us ..................... how much normally is the energy needed and how much is produced?

Edited February 9, 2019 by specinho

[NickW + 2,714]

GTL conversion of flared gas into Methanol is a good method  for preventing the unecessary waste and pollution from burning off unwanted gas. 

This looks like an interesting project in the Marcellus using Modular units to convert methane into Methanol which is then easy to ship. 

https://www.primusge.com/project/marcellus-project/

[Chris Wells + 54]

With rising CO2 in the atmosphere plants grow faster  and are healthier.   Our food also grows faster.  Just saying.  I think there is a multitude of solutions to solve our dependency on fossil fuels.  Choosing just one would be like putting all your eggs in the same basket.  Diversity os good.

[NickW + 2,714]

28 minutes ago, Chris Wells said:

With rising CO2 in the atmosphere plants grow faster(1)  and are healthier (2).   Our food also grows faster.  Just saying.  I think there is a multitude of solutions to solve our dependency on fossil fuels.  Choosing just one would be like putting all your eggs in the same basket.  Diversity os good.

1. Only if other limiting factors are met in tandem

2. Any credible evidence to back this claim up? 

3. Are you sock puppet for Wastral? Check this thread out where this nonsense was debated yesterday. 

 

[Chris Wells + 54]

4 minutes ago, NickW said:

1. Only if other limiting factors are met in tandem

2. Any credible evidence to back this claim up? 

3. Are you sock puppet for Wastral? Check this thread out where this nonsense was debated yesterday. 

 

Might be time for you to add some meat to your arguments instead of throwing doubts on mine.  It's what the alarmists do.

[Chris Wells + 54]

If you look at the actions of the IPCC, all they have left is the emotional attachment of citizens to the health of the planet.  When you start using school children to push your agenda I think it's like putting up the white flag.  Green energy is good for world stability because if you're self sufficient you don't need to worry about what the neighbor has.  The problem with green energy is that it is being pushed too quickly and many will suffer unnecessary economic hardships trying to pay for it.  China and India have already chosen their path, so let's not fight and stop fooling the crowd.  Use economic sanction if you're worried about unfriendly nations, or better yet, let's all be friends and stop being underhanded.  Russian citizens are the same as you and me.  They will eventually do the right thing.  If you're comfortable, why fight.  Let's make everyone comfortable.

[Chris Wells + 54]

Oh, wrong discussion.  Sorry.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

SR71, I am an advocate of cleaner fossil fuels such as natural gas, propane, biogas and fuel cells running off of natural gas. There are far more natural gas ICE engines running vehicles worldwide than electric vehicles. I would like to see that trend to continue. I have encountered several people who think that methanol is a competitive option. I am not convinced but would like to learn more. 

[NickW + 2,714]

14 hours ago, Chris Wells said:

Might be time for you to add some meat to your arguments instead of throwing doubts on mine.  It's what the alarmists do.

You aren't throwing any meat to your arguments. Most of the claims you make are completely unsubstantiated. 

Back on track

Whats the Radiative forcing effect of this 12.86 year cycle you purport to be affecting the climate? 

Edited February 11, 2019 by NickW

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, ronwagn said:

SR71, I am an advocate of cleaner fossil fuels such as natural gas, propane, biogas and fuel cells running off of natural gas. There are far more natural gas ICE engines running vehicles worldwide than electric vehicles. I would like to see that trend to continue. I have encountered several people who think that methanol is a competitive option. I am not convinced but would like to learn more. 

Methanol is something that Natural Gas can easily be converted into and the conversion tech is small and quite modular. It is a potential solution to your flaring issue where pipelines are uneconomic. I posted some links on your thread about this. 

There are many uses of Methanol in the chemical industry beyond fuels. 

[NickW + 2,714]

1 hour ago, mthebold said:

Mechanical engineer here; glad to have some technical expertise to discuss with.  I'm not sure the fine details of chemistry would be helpful at first; maybe we should start with the important conclusions.  Here are some questions I usually ask about new technologies:

Where do methanol plants currently exist, at what cost do they produce, and how low could we drive that cost?  Do you see an enabling technology coming down the pipe that would change the economics of methanol?

What infrastructure would need to be installed, and how does that compare to alternatives?  E.g. we can do gas-to-methanol, but we can also do gas-to-crude, gas-to-diesel, etc.  Would it be better to go straight to a product we're currently using?  What is the advantage of methanol over existing fuels? 

Methanol is already in use, so the logical next step would be spreading it to new applications.  What are the best use cases for methanol?  How do you see it spreading into new applications?  E.g. EV's are not economical in all cases, but there are niches - such as municipal buses, scooters, and ferries - where they'll take over as fast as they can be built.  Are there cases where methanol makes particularly good sense? 

As previously posted - already being done in the Marcellus. 

https://www.primusge.com/about-us/company/

https://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/conference-news/2015/07/gtl-15-small-scale-methanol-seen-as-solution-for-flared-gas-in-us

The advantage of Methanol conversion is that by converting a gas into a liquid it is easier to store and transport where building a pipeline is uneconomic. It is also very easy process, the modular units can be loaded onto the back of a truck,  unlike many other gas to liquids options. 

Methanol has a wide range of industrial applications - formaldehyde, Acetic Acid etc. Its also feasible to blend in small quantities into gasoline. Its also used to convert Veg Oil to biodiesel. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

As previously posted - already being done in the Marcellus. 

https://www.primusge.com/about-us/company/

https://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com/conference-news/2015/07/gtl-15-small-scale-methanol-seen-as-solution-for-flared-gas-in-us

The advantage of Methanol conversion is that by converting a gas into a liquid it is easier to store and transport where building a pipeline is uneconomic. It is also very easy process, the modular units can be loaded onto the back of a truck,  unlike many other gas to liquids options. 

Methanol has a wide range of industrial applications - formaldehyde, Acetic Acid etc. Its also feasible to blend in small quantities into gasoline. Its also used to convert Veg Oil to biodiesel. 

From Ron Wagner

Any additional information will be appreciated. I have not given enough attention to the advocates of methanol. Jan Van Eck is with you and mthebold and SR71. I respect all of you and you know more about practical engineering than I do. I know that natural gas can be captured and compressed or liquified also but may be uneconomic compared to methanol.

6

6

Edited February 12, 2019 by ronwagn

[NickW + 2,714]

Just now, ronwagn said:

I agree with you its a tragic waste to flare gas and it really works against the industry from a public relatives perspective. 

[SR71 + 6]

technology is proven for both coal as well as NG

https://www.wvcoal.com/research-development/coal-to-methanol-eastman-a-air-products

http://kleancoal.com/coal_products/methanol-plants/

https://www.topsoe.com/sites/default/files/topsoe_methanol_coal_gasification_paper.ashx_.pdf

https://petrowiki.org/Gas_to_methanol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel

methanol fuel cells are of two types

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_methanol_fuel_cell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_methanol_fuel_cell

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/analysis/analyst-views/2012/12-05-23-methanol-and-fuel-cells

 

[Red + 252]

On 2/11/2019 at 5:02 AM, Chris Wells said:

If you look at the actions of the IPCC, They synthesise climate data into Reports - seems you have never read any all they have left is the emotional attachment False - the reports are based on science and the IPCC's public profile expands on that information of citizens to the health of the planet.  When you start using school children to push your agenda That's called education, and that's why children go to school - too hard for you to grasp apparently I think it's like putting up the white flag You and thinking in the same sentence - that's a stretch .  Green energy is good for world stability because if you're self sufficient you don't need to worry about what the neighbor has.  The problem with green energy is that it is being pushed too quickly and many will suffer unnecessary economic hardships trying to pay for it completely baseless assertion - again you are clueless on energy costs despite being told time and again.  China and India have already chosen their path  yes, they are going the renewables path because it's cheaper, aside from not polluting their cities, so let's not fight and stop fooling the crowd.  Use economic sanction if you're worried about unfriendly nations you mean worried that they will have cheaper energy than the USA?  what are you talking about??? or better yet, let's all be friends and stop being underhanded.  Russian citizens are the same as you and me.  They will eventually do the right thing.  If you're comfortable, why fight.  Let's make everyone comfortable.

[dracedavell 0]

This

Edited May 20, 2019 by dracedavell